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This one clearly has too many children and not-really-interested people.......
Bullshit trolls, *******s who don't know when they aren't wanted, forums taken down to the level of 5 year olds, music forums, gaming forums....... And no-one doing a damn thing to stop it.....
Intmon, JupM, Mods...... Is this what you want?MS. M: You should have deleted the "gaming forum" post..... You're being baited by little shits..... You know better.....
The signs say it's time to move on.....
TS: I know where you're coming from... but thats going to be the way it is on *almost* any "security" site.
If you leave AO, you're going to find the same thing at the next site... we're going to follow you. ;)
None that are as active and as all-encompassing as this one.
There are several I frequent that only deal with one thing. IE. Root Kit but it's slow and hell....they're only talking about Rootkits.
Now....I'm a hardware guy. I frequently find myself looking on the vendor's site or calling up their SE's when I have a specific concern.
I don't care if you're on the CCIE study forum, Justlinux.com, starwarsgalaxies, or a classic car forum. If there are people there, there are going to be slap-dicks, asshats, and idiots making silly posts.
I have my AntiOnline home page set up to show all forums. Right now, there are 15 security-related threads going on, and 9 non-security related ones.
Of those 9 non-security related threads, 4 are bitch-threads (this one included), 3 are suggestions, and 2 are in Cosmos. How difficult is it to ignore those 9 threads if you're not interested in them?
Bitch-threads are a part of every forum (a forum without bitch-threads probably only has 2 members), and here at AO we seem to have two different types:
It's either members trying to change something for the good but getting bitched at, or members bitching about how AntiOnline has gone downhill. It's funny how some members want to change this place into a security-only forum, but they all seem to be using the wrong technique...
If you want a crowded place to go quiet, you shut up and beg for others to follow your example.
A crowded place won't go quiet when everybody starts shouting "be quiet!".
If you want AntiOnline to become security-only, you only post security-related threads.
It won't become security-only when everybody starts shouting how it's not security-related.
Chain-reactions and avalanches are wonderful things.
Tweak your front page, make it only show security-related forums, problem solved (with the exception of the occasional thread that slips through the mazes of the net). But nooooo, we need to have an opinion, and we need to make sure everybody hears it!
The level of discussion in those security-related forums might be discussable, but you can't expect AntiOnline to give out a free brain to everyone who signs up.
And everybody has a right to post a suggestion. In some cases it's clear that a suggestion isn't going to make it. Nothing lost. A suggestion, options are looked into, decision is made, case closed. Nothing for you to worry about. If the suggestion is worthwhile, don't expect an immediate decision. Options have to be weighed, preferably a consensus has to be reached... takes time.
But expecting a moderator to kill a suggestion because it's not in your line of thought?
Cosmos is another thing: not security-related at all, but if you look at the thread-count, you'll see that it's one of the more popular forums, and it does have a place here.
Doesn't matter where you go, where there are more people, there are dumbasses. Do you live in a city, TS? If you do, you will understand the comparison. chsh (I think) made a comment a while ago about starting another site where he could mod as strict as he wished, I don't know if I would be accepted there, but if he started one I would register.
Of all the forums I've seen, this one is by far the most active. That's why I stuck around, I didn't have to wait a week for a response to a post. Lately the threads have been getting repetitive though. I started a couple to break it up a lil' bit.
Whatever. security-forums.com looks pretty good, groovicus pointed me there, I just lurk though.
Speak for yourself! ****, I like AO and I like the ability to control what I see on this site. If I don't wanna see GCC, I don't have to.Quote:
we're going to follow you.
Tiger: If you don't like this site, leave.. no need to whine/bitch on the way out. I'm sure you'll be missed by a few members and whatnot but we'll move on.
I think you're going to have a hard time finding another web forum like AO that has the same info. The bulk of the good security information seems to be relegated to mailling lists (even usenet is overrun). I'd recommend full-disclosure for an unmoderated list that allows posting (though you are probably already aware of it).
Soda:
As for me starting a site, the comment was along the lines of "if I did, I would heavily moderate the initial membership" (not exact quote), however I don't have the time or resources (more of the latter) to commit to running such an enterprise.
Anyhow, as I've said before elsewhere, if you want the quality of discussion to go up, get rid of Antipoints, and just let the mods moderate the site. As it stands, Antipoints encourage people to write things for the sake of getting cookies. While not being their original intent, IMO it is in a state where it does more harm than good.
I was being sarcastic... duh! :pQuote:
Speak for yourself!
<homer> mmmmm... cookies... </homer>Quote:
Antipoints encourage people to write things for the sake of getting cookies.
Sorry, just trying to give TS some more of that 5th grade BS that he has come to love...
Heh, sorry for being slow today.. Hard day today and I'm pooped.Quote:
I was being sarcastic... duh!
No need to be sorry. I'm being a bit retarded tonight. :)
School starts soon and I'm not looking forward to it... not to mention I'm getting bored with my job and I don't know what to do about it! Fun fun!
Having been "quiet" for some time now..Quote:
Originally posted here by Negative
[B]I have my AntiOnline home page set up to show all forums. Right now, there are 15 security-related threads going on, and 9 non-security related ones.
It's either members trying to change something for the good but getting bitched at, or members bitching about how AntiOnline has gone downhill.
The level of discussion in those security-related forums might be discussable, but you can't expect AntiOnline to give out a free brain to everyone who signs up.
I wouldn't mind if this place could be restored to it's former state, or atleast somewhere near to it. Since this place is corporate now, I don't know what can really even change...but....
I'd be willing to discuss this in a meaningful manner, and if you don't want to take me up on it, that's cool.
que cera cera.
I haven't been a member here for very long I know, but I have lurked on this site as a guest for a very long time. I remember when Tiger, Soda, Memory, Shrekkie, Spyder, etc.. all joined. the site has changed yes, but why complain? It's like life, it's what you make of it. From what I have seen lately SDK and Soda have kept me on my toes thinking and searching. this site is such a good place for newbies to learn and get on their feet or for even a veteran to learn a thing or two. If you don't like the content being posted you have the power to help make the content better. Just my 2 cents.
I agree with hobbdebub, it is what we make out of it, i know i dont make much out of it:D, hell, i'll try to change from now, it was good seeing my username in the last post, i wanna get the status i once had, yes it is going to be hard..
Also tiger, Instead of bitching how this suckls, why not make more security related threads ? I'm 100% sure that most members will participate in the thread, the problem is, we have too many newbies that think this is a tech support forum, we need to make more security related threads to change something. You cant just wait and see when somebody is gonna make a good thread, make one yourself....
well, my .02 cents....
Wav: That was a good post, with the exception of one thing:
What, an annoying post whore? Trust me, you don't want the status nor any affliation of anything you previously had. Starting over maturely and a clean slate is fine though.Quote:
i wanna get the status i once had
Im sorry spyder32, but you came back at the wrong time, i wasn't always a post whore, when the non-sensical thread opened, i started post whoring ( you also ), i also remember that we used to bring couple of thread off topics a day, those times are gone, it's time for a new beginning, i'll try and reincarnate this account, if not. Well... we'll see what happens !Quote:
What, an annoying post whore?
Not to go back to my severe post-whoring days, but: Good luck! :DQuote:
it's time for a new beginning, i'll try and reincarnate this account, if not. Well... we'll see what happens !
Neg: Great idea.... Filter the forums that are full of crap..... Then people like Angelic would have had no help whatsoever, (except maybe Spyrus), in his FSMO thread in Addicts. He posted there because he mistakenly believed that there might be a level of expertise lurking there. I have to say that the limited level of knowledge regarding AD was hardly surprising because it's a place for "addicts" not necessarily "knowledgable addicts".
Ahh... I see.... That's just there to mislead the likes of Angelic and con him into believing that it's "the place to be".... How terribly disappointed he must be to find out that the level of knowledge and the quality of posts in general is no better than GCC.Quote:
AntiOnline Addicts: A forum for people who have a good knowledge of computers/security & who do not post meaninglessly.
I do filter the forums so that I can try to catch _actual_ questions that I can help with. I even show OS and Addicts on my front page for just that reason on the principle that every now and again a blind squirrel will find a nut......
Interestingly enough, the responses here and via PM indicate that this is one of the more active places on the net.....
Thought for JupM: Open your eyes before what talent remains here gets fed up and heads back to the newsgroups..... If you don't make a place that is restricted to intelligent discussion regarding the true subject of this site then those who come looking for it will have nowhere to find it and those who are here wanting it will eventually find it elsewhere. What will remain is AOL without the revenue......
Rich.... Really rich..... coming from the uber post whore with nothing to say and less between his ears..... Wav, call 1-800-328-7448 for help with your problems.... :rolleyes:Quote:
Instead of bitching how this suckls, why not make more security related threads ?
Tiger: I think we should look at this from two angles:
- The infrastructure: the forum, how it is set up, its speed, its possibilities,...
- The members
What you're basically saying is that the members' lack of knowledge is due to the infrastructure, and I have a problem with that...
Compare it to a skate-park (don't know why I picked that :) ): you can have the best skate-park in the world (infrastructure), but if the skaters that hang out there suck...
Now imagine that there's a secluded area in that skate-park: only people who have been to the skate-park 275 times get access to that secluded area. Does that mean that they're better skaters than the rest? Not at all.
If you want to learn some new tricks, your best bet would not be to only hang out in that secluded area. Your best bet would be to hang out in the general area, and try to watch those who know the tricks.
By posting in Addicts, Angelic_Knight limited his options. I think it's wrong to think that you'll get better advice in Addicts: all the people who hang out there, also hang out in the general forums.
Those general forums have the same members plus thousands of others...
Why would one limit his options?
If we'd create a "professional" forum, all that would happen is another limitation of options: a lot of professionals wouldn't be able to access that forum.
I refuse to believe that members are leaving because of the AntiOnline infrastructure.
If they're leaving because of the lack of knowledge... then they're something wrong with the members... good luck in changing that :)
The logic that creating a "professionals" forum would make AntiOnline more geared towards security, is a wrong conclusion, imo... it would do the exact opposite. You'd end up with some worthwhile discussions in that professionals forum, and everything else would be in the general forums. Wouldn't that make AntiOnline even more what you despise?
Those worthwhile discussions can just as well be held in the general forums, where everybody can learn from them, and where everybody can have their say.
With a restricted professionals forum, those who come looking for it will have nowhere to find it and will go elsewhere, not the other way around... that's the entire problem I have with your logic :)
Thanks Neg, you gave me a different way to look at that, I see your point. Tig's right about why I posted in Addicts, plus I wanted to lower the chances of it going off-topic. The subject of that thread was so complex that any idiot adding a string of flame or nonsense posts would've messed things up really quick.
But I really don't think AO's going that far downhill. Of course, I wasn't here during the golden era, but I know one thing for sure: when I first came here, I was oblivious to anything security. Today, I at least can hold my own a bit. I'm doing better at my job thanks to AO. I've had tons of questions answered and have had lots of help. But if people like Tiger start leaving, people like me are gonna be pretty screwed.
For any community to grow and stay strong, it's members must stay committed, and that means through the good times and bad. Do we leave AO just because it's going through a problem phase? I say no, we stick it out. You guys really don't think it's going to stay this way forever do you? I think we just need to be more patient. I don't know about you guys, but AO has really been a life-saver for me more times than I can count.
Tiger, there is only a few more weeks till school is back in, at which point, hopefully, a lot of the problems we are experiencing will have other things to focus on. :)
Cheers:
(Just looked this back up.)
Neg, this is why I thought posting my thread in Addicts was a good idea. To quote Terr:
Quote:
The forum is useful for discussing topics which (in the more public boards) would degenerate into chaos or flamewars, as well as to discuss the general workings and current issues of AO... or for pointing fingers at users who really need a good swift kick in the pants like those who try to muck up the system with bad usernames.
Neg: Man.... You gotta get a job.... You're spending waaay too much time with the kids.... A Skate Park????? ;) But I'll run with the analagy... It's a fun one....
You're right, the secluded area isn't necessarily the best place to learn the new tricks. But there's the other side of the coin. Out there in either of the areas there are skaters with great tricks and skill and those that still have a cushion strapped to their buttz. I, as a pretty good skater can't find the space to practice my tricks because I keep getting knocked over by the "cushion asses" who lack the control required to get out of my way. So when I find that I can't skate to my ability because there is no safe place for me to skate I have to go and find a safe place. All your park is left with is the "cushion asses" who don't have the knowledge to help each other so the cushions never come off. New kids in town who are skilled visit the park once or twice and realize that this is an unsafe and unskilled environment and go looking for another park in town.
OTOH, imagine the following.... We fence off a far corner of the park, away from the secluded area but we only do it with a chain link fence so people can watch the skilled skaters do their tricks but the skilled skaters aren't impeded by the "cushion asses". Note that the chain link fence can be seen through both ways. The "cushion asses" can watch the skilled skaters and see thier tricks and techniques without other "cushion asses" keep blocking their view. The skilled skaters can also see the "cushion asses" and having benefitted from a clear view of the techniques some of them will begin removing the cushion. When they are doing the tricks and are demonstrating a level of skill that won't impede the existing members then they too can be given the key to the gate so they too can skate in safety and continue improving. Back to the new kid in town. In his last town he was "the boy" on skates but his town didn't have a park but now he's in the new town he's looking for one. He comes to the park and even though he sees all the "cushion asses" in the general area he can clearly see that there are skilled skaters in the park too. It won't take a long time for some of the skilled skaters to recognize the new kids talent and invite him into the fenced off area so he can benefit from it too. Lastly, since the fenced off area is in the far corner of the park all the skilled skaters have to walk across the general area amongst all the "cushion asses" they will be able to ask them questions about skills. I would suggest that those who snub them because they aren't members of the fenced area shouldn't keep the key much longer..... I said it before.... I don't think you have much faith in your skilled skaters if you think they won't look back out through the chain link fence and give some help and suggestions to the "cushion asses".....
I can see your problem here... What you perceived to be my logic was not, in fact, my logic at all..... ;) I'm not saying a closed room with no windows, I'm saying a closed room that is all glass so everyone can see in but they can't interfere with the processes taking place within.Quote:
that's the entire problem I have with your logic
Angelic:
I couldn't have put it better myself.... The biggest problem I see with it though is that no-one else got to see the "skilled skating" because Addicts is GCC for the post whores only...... Everyone else was locked out becuase they haven't post whored enough.... Shame really...Quote:
The subject of that thread was so complex that any idiot adding a string of flame or nonsense posts would've messed things up really quick.
TS: How would you decide who is allowed in this "skilled" section?
Woud you do it by education? Certs? Experience? Etc.?
You have to take a test to get in?
Phish:
Here's my original thoughts. I believe that by the end of that thread the "idea" had been hammered out and all we are down to right now is waiting to see if JupM can do it from a technical standpoint and if they want to. Then the "games" should begin as to the minutiae of what the initial entrance requirements should be.
Tiger Shark
I sure hope you dont give up on AO as I have always found your posts informative and have learned a great deal lurking from members like you.
Yes there are trolls, *******s, etc...but they are everywhere....and I just do my best to ignore them...kinda like when I am at work :D
I also like your AO Proffessionals idea....
As I know from playing music in my previous life prior to computers...(have no time now)
the better the players your are playing with the better you play.
Anyway...hope you stick around as IMHO...it would be a great loss to AO if members with your insight and intelligence should start to leave.
Just my .02 cdn
The lurker
MLF
I have to suggest that if you want such a place where you set the rules and govern membership (your own little club inside AO), why not simply go make your own and mention it to the membership here? Those interested can go and participate in the discussions, everyone else can read. The benefit of this would be it would be antipoint-headache free, and you decide what goes on in there, which seems to be what you want.
You forgot to mention people posting non security questions in security forums to get their topic on the front page. :pQuote:
Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
Bullshit trolls, *******s who don't know when they aren't wanted, forums taken down to the level of 5 year olds, music forums, gaming forums....... And no-one doing a damn thing to stop it.....
I agree with you on a couple of your points. I do think that people have been asking for a "anything I can think of under the sun" forum is not really what this site should be all about. We came here for the security and computer discussion and we should stick to it as much as possible. The "AO Professional" forum might be the answer to your problem. However, as people have said before me, your never going to find a forum on the net that does not have a lot of trolls. (And is popular)
I don't see it quite like that old chap.... More a place that any member that can carry on an intelligent discussion that is pertinent to the subject matter of AO can do it without the thread being derailed or otherwise demeaned by those that are allowed free entry to the site but have an insatiable desire to screw up everything they touch. Furthermore, instead of then having to go through weeks of flame wars and whining because someone is out of line the issue can be cleared up in a matter of two days with a single post - vote them up or down - more than 55% say s/he goes then s/he's gone.... period. The poll is then deleted and the forum continues.....Quote:
your own little club inside AO
As for setting up my own I do believe we are in similar boats. Maybe we could help each other.....
CXG:
Yeah, but if popularity is measured in volume of traffic and the traffic is generated by the trolls what do you have left when you remove their traffic.... If it's the trolls driving the popularity then it probably wasn't of much use in the first place..... Just a thought... ;)Quote:
your never going to find a forum on the net that does not have a lot of trolls. (And is popular)
Morgan: Thank you.
As a relatively new user of AO I must say that I have found this site extremely helpful and informative. I have to confess that I have started non-security related threads but it was to get help, not as a post whore trying to get into an addicts section. There are great people in here (for example, ss2chef has offered to burn a cd with a printer driver that I need, and email it to me even though we are in different countries! I have never met him and know nothing about him but he is still willing to do that for me.) There are definitlely a fair share of bullshit trolls, and *******s, and there are definitely too many people coming here asking how to hack this and that. There are lots of younger people (myself, only 14 being one of them) but I think for the most part these people are, for the most part, quickly weeded out. I think Tiger Shark's idea about an area fenced off that people can still see is a great one. I also think that some kind of live chat room or series of IRC channels would be a good idea. People could talk to eachother in real time about their security related issues and anyone who is not contributing properly could be quickly booted with out completely banning them from AO. That way people could get relevant answers even quicker while reducing these annoying troublemakers. I'm not even sure if this is viable but I just want to say that I have gotten a lot out of Antionline and I would be very dissapointed to see it go under or to lose some of its better members.
Jesse
Actually there is an IRC channel. I have yet to visit it myself, but one of the other guys can tell you where to find it...
True, and the trolls probably wont buy the software/services that are being advirtised.Quote:
Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
I
CXG:
Yeah, but if popularity is measured in volume of traffic and the traffic is generated by the trolls what do you have left when you remove their traffic.... If it's the trolls driving the popularity then it probably wasn't of much use in the first place..... Just a thought... ;)
BTW: Glad you took the above comment as a joke.
most of AOers hang out in irc.martlev.com irc.unerror.com or irc.unerror.us ...Quote:
have yet to visit it myself, but one of the other guys can tell you where to find it...
Contrary to the impression my rants of the last few days might have given I do have a sense of humor.... I think..... Now where did I put it???? :confused: Furthermore, you are far from being one of the habitual troublemakers, flamers and ne'er-do-wells that all to often get involved in discussions they probably shouldn't... But be warned... I have a little pot of venom with your name on it should you get out of hand..... ;)Quote:
BTW: Glad you took the above comment as a joke.
Ooooooohhhh... /me jumps back into line. Thats almost as scary as MSM with the whips and chains... LOL - Anyway, back to the topic before Tiger gets out his venom. :)Quote:
Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
Contrary to the impression my rants of the last few days might have given I do have a sense of humor.... I think..... Now where did I put it???? :confused: Furthermore, you are far from being one of the habitual troublemakers, flamers and ne'er-do-wells that all to often get involved in discussions they probably shouldn't... But be warned... I have a little pot of venom with your name on it should you get out of hand..... ;)
I could actually see an interest in a game security related forum. Possible topics could be stopping cheating, anti-piracy, anti-fraud, secure game development....etc. All stuff I get to play with as a game developer.
If it's just 'i like pacman because it rules' forget it.
That is what Angelic, sy, and I tried to point out in that thread, but someone decided to neg everyone cept me and angelic to death (I can take a guess at who did that due to who is distressed over that at the moment) and made the thread run suicidal, so we could not have any more discussion about it.Quote:
Originally posted here by Juridian
I could actually see an interest in a game security related forum. Possible topics could be stopping cheating, anti-piracy, anti-fraud, secure game development....etc. All stuff I get to play with as a game developer.
If it's just 'i like pacman because it rules' forget it.
That was silly. I'm all for a game security forum as long as it doesn't go down the crapper and turn into a discussion of why halo 2 rocks (tho my sources say it does). There are alot of areas related to game security especially when dealing with standard multiplayer games and mmog's. E-commerce initiatives related to said systems compounds it even more.
Security is also an area largely ignored by game companies up until recently with some of the bigger games like everquest, and so on. Credit card fraud, griefers, cheaters, phishing scams, script kiddies, etc make day to day life interesting.
See... I could live with a game _Security_ forum.... That's a whole different ball of wax as compared to Games or Music. Since there are exploits being run against gamers computers from infected servers I would say that it is something that would be of both use and interest to many.
But like Juridian says... if it goes down the crapper or gets off topic then it should just be shut down.
By the way, I don't follow many threads outside of some key security forums, and me sucking up to Cosmos posters, so I had no idea someone asked for a music/game forum then posted anyway? That aside, game sever/client security is definitely an interesting topic. Manipulating the game environement to an advantage is very popular and at least in the linix world, counter measures and discussion topics are very active though isolated to specific mailing lists. Suprisingly enough they too are chocked full of people complaining. ;)
Outside of a gaming system itself such as half-life dedicated server and WON, or dedicated servers for Battlefield 1942/Vietnam - the machines that accept credit info or host forums are just normal off the shelf e-commerce web servers most of the time. Except for the big ones like Steam? Game security is an interesting and important topic. In fact client security is paramount. It's typical say to make a multiplayer gaming directory READ only on NTFS based gaming machines, and tweak individual file access based on the needs of the game. That's just one example.
Personally, I think that while it would be interesting, who other than yourself is going to be reasonably capable of participating in the discussion? I doubt many of the members here have your somewhat unique skillset and experience. This is true of a lot of topics, not just gaming, however, it does raise the question. Not saying I disagree with creating it, that's far from the case, I'm all for it. I'm just curious as to who you see as participating in such discussions.Quote:
Originally posted here by Juridian
Security is also an area largely ignored by game companies up until recently with some of the bigger games like everquest, and so on. Credit card fraud, griefers, cheaters, phishing scams, script kiddies, etc make day to day life interesting.