Records Counter a Critic of Kerry

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug18.html

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Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

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so we got 2 people who lied to get medals.

While interesting, if you read far enough into it, you will see him be quoted specifically as saying:

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Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

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To be honest, I don't know which of them to believe, other than to say the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I do happen to know a vet who did two tours on riverboats in nam, and he can't stand Kerry, but I think it has more to do with how Kerry acted after the war than what he did during it.

Hopefully, given more time, the press will get off of their lazy haunches and find out more info, one way or the other.

Who wrote the AAR's? (After Action Reports) :thumbsup:

.......I've seen French school girls shoot better!

Statement By Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Member Larry Thurlow

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has more to do with how Kerry acted after the war than what he did during it

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For these guys, that IS why they are after him so hard. He made them feel like criminals and for some, degraded enough to go into depression. etc. According to them is was all BS from the beginning. And now Jane Fonda is coming out of the woodwork.

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Hopefully, given more time, the press will get off of their lazy haunches and find out more info, one way or the other.

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IMHO I tend to disbelive the press even more.

I think that Kerry recieved the medal legitimately, and that the others are being rewarded by some means by the Bush supporters to discredit him. I also thouroghly believe that one of the Bush's rigged the campaign that got G.W.B. elected in the first place. If my beliefs are true about the election being rigged, then I have to also strongly believe that the Bush's having gotten away with the rigging, would definately try something just as low this campaign.

This is just my personal opinion. I do not have any evidence to support this. My opinion is based on events that have been covered by the press who I tend to not take fully serious. In my years on this planet I have become very good at reading between the lines.

This not an opinion it's a fact!
John Kerry humiliated returning Vietnam veterans.

John Kerry told the world we were war criminals who raped, tortured and murdered in Vietnam. Now, thirty-three years later, we will tell America the truth. Join us at the rally we call:KERRY LIED . . . while good men died

Aeallison, you honestly believe someone rigged the election even though there are a hundred thousdand polling booths all monitored very closely by each party and if it was rigged why only a small margine. If you want a real statement make it a landslide, I say.

I did not fight in the war, I was too young. Although I do have family that were their and they have also told me of some very criminal things that were done by our forces there. I will not go into detail of what I heard as I don't know how to prove or disprove it. I will say that these things were told to me over 20 years ago and that the persons whom I heard these allegations had nothing to gain by telling me about them.

I hope I am not offending anyone here by my opinion, but I do believe Kerry's side of the story more than that of the people he pissed off. My father received a Bronse Star for carrying a wounded comrad out of harms way while under enemy fire. He dropped his weapon and gear and ran to the aid of his friend, threw him over his shoulder and carried him to safety. I think that Kerry did the same thing by pulling his wounded comrad out of the river. My father fought in the Phillipeans and Japan during WWII.

Al Gore had won the popular vote, and would have won the election (by a very small margin) if he would have gotten the Florida votes. Florida was the deciding vote needed for either one to win. Jeb Bush was the Govenor of Florida was he not? It just seems much too fishy to me.

You should go work for a newspaper, !mitationRust, with all your bolded headlines and stuff... Bolding it doesn't make it more nor less a fact, you know...
BTW: humiliation is always an opinion and never a fact.

Just for the record a Presidential canditate can win by popular vote, but lose by electoral vote.

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Originally posted here by Negative BTW: humiliation is always an opinion and never a fact.

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Subjectivity is a wonderful thing, isn’t it? I love how liberals will do anything to spin and get away from the subject at hand. Good job; you’ve earned a tin-foil hat.

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Originally posted here by aeallison
I did not fight in the war, I was too young. Although I do have family that were their and they have also told me of some very criminal things that were done by our forces there. I will not go into detail of what I heard as I don't know how to prove or disprove it. I will say that these things were told to me over 20 years ago and that the persons whom I heard these allegations had nothing to gain by telling me about them.

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aeallison, I was there. I spent a totel of approx. 18 months in Viet Nam in two different periods. As alot of vets I don't usually ever talk of any of the things I have seen or might have been a part of. But yes, there were many instances of criminal behavior on all sides. It was a war, and in war any thing goes, whether it would be considered legal or not.

Case in point, the Mie Ley (sp?) affair. The reasons for the slaugher of those villiagers might have actually been valid (at that time), but with the press there and exposing it all, it was an atrocity. I wasn't there, so I couldn't even guess what reasoning lead up to it. Being in a war zone, being shot at, seeing your buddies wounded and killed, and living in constant fear....changes everybody. What a person might do in those situations can even sicken that person years later when they look back on it, because they are not the same as they were at that particual point in time.

And yes, although I believe that every one should be accountable for their own actions, I would also state that a lot of leeway be used in judgeing how a person acted or reacted in any particular situation.

By personal observation, most of the medals received out of Viet Nam were given to officers. Most of those were undesearved, and unearned. It is like 'AO' in that reguard -- the most AP's are given to seniors and seldom are they really desearved (my apologies to the few who actually desearve what they are earning).

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Subjectivity is a wonderful thing, isn’t it? I love how liberals will do anything to spin and get away from the subject at hand. Good job; you’ve earned a tin-foil hat.

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The fact is that both sides claim to have the facts, that both sides claim the other side is lying. How's that for subjectivity?
And I'm probably even farther away from what is called liberalism in the US than you are, so keep your tin-foil hat :)

My father was very lucky... He was in nam for a whopping 2 days. He was in the Army working with NIKE missiles. The army decided to use them, shipped all those guys to southern nam, then 2 days later shipped them all back because they started using something else.

aeallison,

I hope your father is well and lived well. The Florida vote was counted and counted and counted then went to the supreme court of the course of a long time. The result was the electoral votes went to Bush. That is a lot of people to be duped and subdued and, well perhaps you get my point. The electoral college is a chech in the American system. It works to a degree to make fair electoral consideration across the entire sub continent of the United States.

These guys on the boats aren't saying that crimes were not commited. Kerry came back and told his story and it was aweful. He addressed the senate and took up arms and allies against those who served. Kerry was there for FOUR MONTHS. His contact was limited and involved those who now speak. He made THEM, not everyone else but THEM the issue of his attack. They had enough. They are a small number who actually had daily contact with Kerry. It is their story, not that of the entire war.

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Factcheck.org

At this point, 35 years later and half a world away, we see no way to resolve which of these versions of reality is closer to the truth.

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So far for "facts" :) The factcheck.org article explains everything there is to know.

www.wintersoldier.com and http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com have some pretty interesting facts you should check out ;).

Anyone read Unfit for Command yet? I just bout it, and so far it seems like a pretty good book.

That is true negative. However Kerry could release more documentation if he chooses. Releasing the paperwork that resulted in his medals does nothing. That was ALREADY on his web site. No one disputes the validity of paperwork submited; no one believes it was forged. If Kerry chooses not to do that, it's ok he's entitled but then it leaves us to take story by story and try and deduce what is the most likely event. He (Kerry) has already changed his "seared" memory once, and there are over 200 saying one thing and Kerry and a couple of people saying another. Even his own gunner has a different perspective of what Kerry tells. It was a long time ago, but Kerry wanted us all to believe it was yesterday and seared into his mind. The cornerstone of his campaign has been his "WAR" status. I don't know how many people I talked too and listened to in the Kerry camp operate on that issue. Just wait they (swift boat guys) are releasing another ad today or next week I think.

I am sure many medals in Vietnam and other wars are not always on the level. But when you toss them away, get them back, join Jane to vindicate yourself and destroy your brothers, then use altered memories for decades in political attacks on your opponents – it just may come back on you IF, you were not always true to what you say. Versus the guy who tells a story to his kids around dinner time and lives in a small town somewhere.

//EDIT just saw the wintersoldier link

I can see why this would piss off verterans to a large degree, no matter what the circumstance surrounding it being taken, it's the present context.

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I did not fight in the war, I was too young. Although I do have family that were their and they have also told me of some very criminal things that were done by our forces there. I will not go into detail of what I heard as I don't know how to prove or disprove it. I will say that these things were told to me over 20 years ago and that the persons whom I heard these allegations had nothing to gain by telling me about them.

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I don't think anyone disputes that illegal/repugnant things happened in specific instances during the war in Vietnam. I think the reason that the swift boat crew has a bone to pick with Kerry is that Kerry came back from his tour (btw, how did he get out after 4 months? Or did I misread something?), my understanding is that he reported atrocities among the riverboat crews, which specifically pointed the finger at them. Now whether or not something like what Kerry described happened with the riverboat crews while he was there, I have no way of knowing. I can only say that I haven't heard of any reports on atrocities by river boat crews...(which when it comes down to it doesn't mean crap, although I have read quite a bit (a little of a war junky) and talked to several vets (some of whom were on those same type boats in the same place).

Dunno, guess I am more or less stuck in wait and see mode.

Nebulus

EDIT: Btw, I wrote that post pretty early on before I had time to watch the news. I did see an interview with that guy who said that the after action report was written by John Kerry and that he wasn't awarded the Bronze Star until his tour of duty was up and he was going home (many weeks later) and that it was based off of a junior officer that had reviewed the after action reports of the incident. He never really answered why he didn't correct the facts when he recieved the citation other than to say that he wound up leaving his citation in storage shortly after receiving it and has never looked at it since (and to mention that it wasn't the junior officer's fault, he was just reviewing the report written by Kerry).

moxnix: I really do understand what you guys wen't through, I saw what that war did to many beloved family and friends. I used to listen to tape recordings that were sent to my sister by her husband, I still to this day can remember my sister crying while she listened. Her husband was a Marine Sergant in some kind of recon roll. He told me that he would follow around the VC in a smal 6 man group and sneak into their camps at night to slit a few throats, then sneak back out and wait for the excitement that insued after the dead VC were discovered by their comrads. This was just one of many stories I was told through the few years that he remained sane. He is now a very lonley person dieing of some sort of cancer brought on by Agent Orange exposure. I am also proud of the soldiers who fought there and I think that they all deseve much more respect than they recieved. Thank you for your comment in my reguards. It allowed me to clarify my posisition a small bit. I am not saying that Kerry was right or moral about what he accused the Swift Boat guys of, I do believe he thought it was the right thing to do at the time and that this was most likely his way of releasing some of his own guilt at the time. It was a long time ago, and I think that actions speak louder than words. Kerry by no means has a clean slate, but people do change, and I have to wiegh the two candidates pros and cons. I am still undecided who will get my vote. This thread is just another way to hear other opinions and views. I will also look at the links everyone has submitted and make some more comments, who knows maybe one of you might change my mind. ;)

RoadClosed: My Father died several years ago, he was 79, so he lived a good and productive life, my Mother and him were married for over 50 years and he was a good man. Thank you for mentioning him... <sniff> As for the Florida scandal... I have to give you the benifit of the facts you have stated. I will withdraw my accusations of a rigged election, I do also think that bush has made a better President than Gore would have. Not that I am a supporter of Bush, no, no, no, I am not a supporter of Kerry either. I am still studying the two candidates, I will say that I am leaning towards Kerry. I have to agree with nebulus200, I am in wait and see mode.

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I will say that I am leaning towards Kerry. I have to agree with nebulus200, I am in wait and see mode.

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I am leaning towards Bush at the moment, but I blame the Democrats for that. I am a fiscal and social conservative, but I also trend mainly towards libertarian (if they dropped the drug part of their platform I would be there, but that is a different debate) with a strong belief in freedom of speech and fighting to keep the rights garunteed by the Bill of Rights.

I have been greatly angered with many of the things Bush has done (#1 being reckless spending, which can be blamed on Congress; however, I also blame Bush because he has yet to use a single veto and only offers plans of cutting the defecit in half sometime after he leaves office :rolleyes: ). I have also been severely disappointed by the general secrecy of his administration, the general trend towards the curtailing of rights, the general trend towards invasion of privacy and expansion of government power, an arrogant trend (not only to other countries but to US citizens in general), and a rush to use military force where it may or may not be applicable (I don't disagree with Bush going into Iraq BTW, but I absolutely blame him for being totally unprepared for the aftermath and the subsequent overextension of US forces). As a side note, I do not blame Bush for the economy, circumstances were largely out of his control (the recession started before he took office, 9/11, terrorist attacks, corporate scandals (from before he took office), and sky high oil prices have all taken a terrible toll). I had planned to either not vote at all in the next election (and still may not, after all, tweedle dumb or tweedle dumber isn't much of a choice) or to vote for someone other than Bush.

During the primaries, there were actually several candidates for the Democratic nomination for which I would have voted; however, the Democratic party let their vitrolic hatred of Bush jade their outlook and their selection of candidates. IMHO, they let their intense hatred of Bush drive their selection of an anti-Bush and that has led to an ultra-liberal ticket (#1 and #4 in senate votes) that I cannot in good conscience consider as viable alternatives. It is really quite sad, I dislike Bush and many of the things he has done; however, I feel the Democrats left me no choice but to vote for Bush (staying home is voting for Kerry).

I still don't know, I may wind up staying home, but I sure as hell ain't voting for Kerry.

Blast me all you want, I know this board trends liberal, but for someone stuck around the center, I find both choices unappealing.

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Blast me all you want, I know this board trends liberal, but for someone stuck around the center, I find both choices unappealing.

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You make another good point, I will vote for someone. But, for who???

I won't blast ya :3pow: although some might, I always get a blast or two from someone in a political discussion. Let me tell you a little secret.... I just love to be blasted by these people, it gives me some amusement and something to do when I am bored. I feel like I have done something when I get answers back with bold typefaces :D No offense to !mitationRust, I never even flinched. :cool:

:shootem: :D There are democrats I would vote for as well. None of them made it even as far as Edwards and others before Kerry came out ahead. I can see your point the point of view about freedoms being taken away. I criticise bush on other matters though. That is definitely your libertarian point of view. :) On my radical side I am a Federalist.

Did just see something rather interesting on MSNBC as I was flipping channels (Scarborough country, not something I usually watch, but...). Anyway, he was running through details and mentioned that the person that wrote the after action report for the swift boat guy was not in fact John Kerry (he mentioned the name, sorry don't remember).

He then had a guest on his show that did serve on Kerry's swift boat who flat contradicted Kerry's story about the swift boat in Cambodia. Of course, the guest from Kerry's camp flat contradicted the guest. The one thing I found interesting is that they both pointed to after action reports, one claming they exist and one claiming they don't because it never happened. Hopefully someone will be pulling through those reports and find out one way or the other, it is quite apparent from watching that interview that both are willing to directly contradict the other, which makes it damn near impossible, at least for me, to tell who was wrong (though the vet staying come and the Kerry guy being hysterical didn't help Kerry IMHO).

Anyway, Kerry filed a formal FEC complaint regarding the swift boat add. Am going to keep an eye on MSNBC website for a while to see if they publish the transcript.

POW’s went through even more torture because of Kerry they were presented with his accusations and when they denied the Kerry reports they were beat, starved, pissed on, shitted on, electrocuted, burned, choked, cut, whipped, ect… Kerry you think you can dick soldiers up the ass like that and run for Commander and Chief?

If Kerry had more or less kept his mouth shut about Vietnam then none of this would be an issue. He made it the centerpiece of his entire presidential campaign.

If your actions are used by a brutal Communist dictatorship, you are not fit to be president based on that record. He’s an alleged “war hero” who turned around and sold out his country to the enemy. And how he wants to be president in a time of war. What other enemies will this self-described “internationalist” sell us out to in the future?

As far as I’m concerned with the swifts boat Vets for truth, “Mission accomplished” you have single handily crippled Kerry’s Vet vote! So much that Kerry is trying to troll the president into the argument.

From what I understand…
The person who signed the Larry Raymond Thurlow citation was Ed. R. Zumwalt. This citation was drafted from the AAR written by Kerry, taken at “face value” which was done rightly so, because officers are not to lie while writing AAR’s.

Hrrrm….They seemed to have left that little fact out at factcheck.org! :thumbsup:

Now get this.

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Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has requested that the Federal Election Commission force Republican groups to withdraw ads attacking his military service record.

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http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...3_24?hub=World

I guess Kerry can "dish it out, but he can't take it". I don't recall Bush trying to
get Michael Moore's movie outlawed, even though it dealt some harsh blows
to his campaign.

One useful side effect of all the negative campaigning is that it reveals how
a person will react to unfair criticism. Kerry needs to suck it up and stop
whining about it.

Every president since Geo. Wash. has had to deal with criticism and name calling.
Does he think, if he gets elected, his enemies will go home and stop annoying
him. Get over it.
:cool:

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If Kerry had more or less kept his mouth shut about Vietnam then none of this would be an issue. He made it the centerpiece of his entire presidential campaign.

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He couldn't have. He wouldn't be where he is now without it. He has used it throughout his 30 years in politics.

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I don't recall Bush trying to
get Michael Moore's movie outlawed, even though it dealt some harsh blows
to his campaign.

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I'm pretty sure the Reps tried to silence him. It doesn't usually work.

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Kerry needs to suck it up and stop
whining about it.

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Kerry needs to come out and tell the truth of what happened. He also needs to read the book before he calls it lies. Also he needs to get his dimwitted campaign officers to stop threatening/requesting book stores to stop selling "Unfit for Command". I went and purchased the book. Dalton Books fortunately was not affected by this and had plenty of copies out. I'm surprised though...they allow dozens of books that belittle GWB, but they do not want to accept this book? Typical. They want to silence everyone who has something to say, which does not go by their agenda. The veterans earned the right to be heard. So Kerry just needs to STFU and come out and debate them. O'Neill already beat Kerry in a debate he had in 1971 on the Dick Cavett Show. He proved to be a complete dickhead.

The democrats have made a really good choice with Kerry though. They secured Hillary Clinton a very good spot for presidency in 2008. You really think they give two shits about Kerry? Not at all...Kerry is not winning this election, fortunately for the Clintons.

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Originally posted here by rcgreen
Now get this.
I guess Kerry can "dish it out, but he can't take it". I don't recall Bush trying to
get Michael Moore's movie outlawed, even though it dealt some harsh blows
to his campaign.

One useful side effect of all the negative campaigning is that it reveals how
a person will react to unfair criticism. Kerry needs to suck it up and stop
whining about it.

Every president since Geo. Wash. has had to deal with criticism and name calling.
Does he think, if he gets elected, his enemies will go home and stop annoying
him. Get over it.
:cool:

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rcgreen, just pointed out one of the many Kerry flaws, he is over sensitive! You know if Mr. Sensitive Kerry was in charge when Khrushchev took off his shoe and went psycho saying, “We shall bury you”, I can almost guarantee we would be speaking Russian to day picking potatoes under slave labor making cheap vodka!

America needs a leader not some communist sell out, over sensitive, Tokyo Rose, Jane Fonda imitator who betrayed and smeared vets/POW's at the same time put a little more torture on their plate.

What kind of person would vote for him knowing that?

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Originally posted here by Cybr1d
Kerry needs to come out and tell the truth of what happened. He also needs to read the book before he calls it lies. Also he needs to get his dimwitted campaign officers to stop threatening/requesting book stores to stop selling "Unfit for Command". I went and purchased the book. Dalton Books fortunately was not affected by this and had plenty of copies out. I'm surprised though...they allow dozens of books that belittle GWB, but they do not want to accept this book? Typical. They want to silence everyone who has something to say, which does not go by their agenda. The veterans earned the right to be heard. So Kerry just needs to STFU and come out and debate them. O'Neill already beat Kerry in a debate he had in 1971 on the Dick Cavett Show. He proved to be a complete dickhead.

The democrats have made a really good choice with Kerry though. They secured Hillary Clinton a very good spot for presidency in 2008. You really think they give two shits about Kerry? Not at all...Kerry is not winning this election, fortunately for the Clintons.

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Thank you for saying that Cybr1d, Kerry just needs to answer the questions!
No, you mean the "Clinton Political Machine" secured Hillary Clinton a very good spot for presidency in 2008. That selfish Clinton blunder will result in another Republican victory. Not only that, but also yet another book for Hillary.

That party is falling apart. ;)

i have come to the conclusion that politics is the never ending battle of the quest for being right, and loved. And this election proves that neither of which can be achieved at the same time ;)

Hmm that is true about book stores. There are tons of Coservative books out but when you walk in there is a HUGE display showing a dozen anti-Bush books. I am talking hateful books. There are just as many alertative viewpoints from moderate conservatives to very far right wing, but they are way in the back. AND I live in a conservative town. I wonder what Boston or New York is like? Those progressive free thinking cities you know? Or even San Fransico.

In fact we had a kid die last week, one of many. :( He was on a street corner in Iraq, his dad sent him some candy and he was giving some to a group of kids when a sniper shot him in front of the kids. If he was beating the kids are something the media hounds would have splashed him up on the front page of every major newspaper. The only reason I know about it is because they tried to get him (father) to say something bad about the war in a local interview and I thought he (father) was going to kill the guy interviewing him after he asked him if he regreted his son being in iraq. That is always the first question the next one is about Bush.

Hmmmm, it seems our boy Bush is beloved by the whole world. One more reason why I am leaning towards a vote for Kerry. I just saw this reference thread this morning, the link in the first post is very interesting. I would have commented in that thread, but I had said in this thread that I would post my opinions here as my views on this subject change or are re-enforced. Cheers! :D

Reference:
http://www.antionline.com/showthread...hreadid=261322