Freewill vs Pre-destination

I would like to ask a question with regards to free-will and pre-destination. I have to admit, I lean to ward the pre-destination part, mean how else can "people see into the future" if it isnt happening already?! is tomorrow already happening today and just waiting for my consciousness to catch up or is it truly that i can choose a different destiny? Hey didnt Nostradamus make a whole lot of predictions?! Didnt Edgar Casey also?! Hey to all the Egyptologists out there ....

In the end, could these 2 perhaps just be opposite and equal reactions that need to exist so that they cancel each other out and hence create balance?!

my head hurts ........ to much to think about this is ;)

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Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

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http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/k...1&byte=5182024[quote]

[QUOTE] Originally posted here by rcgreen
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/k...1&byte=5182024how do you reconcile this with consciousness that believes in free-will rcgreen, thanks for the reply btw, am i not to believe, that in your terms adam and eve chose to eat the apple, or was it designed for them to eat the apple?! or is this a different question?!

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adam and eve chose to eat the apple

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I thought that Eve was tempted by the serpent ...................
And then she coerced Adam into joining her.





Anyway; Eve was the first computer operator: She used to play with Adam's Wang ........ :D
And; as usual, there's an Apple in the background...............

The debate over free will is one of the oldest and most
fundamental philosophical questions. Here is Martin Luther's opinion.

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For if you hesitate to believe, or are too proud to acknowledge, that God foreknows and wills all things, not contingently, but necessarily and immutably, how can you believe, trust and rely on His promises? When He makes promises, you ought to be out of doubt that He knows, and can and will perform, what He promises; otherwise, you will be accounting Him neither true nor faithful, which is unbelief, and the height of irreverence, and a denial of the most high God! And how can you be thus sure and certain, unless you know that certainly, infallibly, immutably and necessarily, He knows, wills and will perform what He promises? Not only should we be sure that God wills, and will execute His will, necessarily and immutably; we should glory in the fact, as Paul does in Romans 3:4 - "Let God be true, but every man a liar", and again, "Not that the word of God has failed," and in another place, "The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are His." In Titus 1:2 he says: "Which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began"... If, then, we are taught and believe that we ought to be ignorant of the necessary foreknowledge of God and the necessity of events, Christian faith is utterly destroyed, and the promises of God and the whole gospel fall to the ground completely; for the Christian's chief and only comfort in every adversity lies in knowing that God does not lie, but brings all things to pass immutably, and that His will cannot be resisted, altered or impeded.

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http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm

If you remove God from the discussion, and replace him with impersonal
forces, the problem still does not go away. Sovereignty, foresight, and
predestination are merely transferred to some other authority.

Predestination is an inescapable concept

It's only a question of who is doing the predestinating.
:cool:

Here is my say on this debate, Free will and pre-destination can be compared to DNA and genes of human beings. We all know from sceintific research that most of human traits like physique, nature etc can be pre-determined by looking at his/her DNA fingerprints or genes(whichever) , but then there is also effect of upbringing,enviroment etc. Now all these factors effect a person which can be calculated to predict about him in a given situation.
But if that person by some insight become aware of this thing scripted behaviour of his, he can use his free will to put an effort into changing his nature and his response to these situations.
aren't free-will and predestination are like these?

I believe both exist paradoxically. It's just a matter of how you perceive time as a whole (theoretically speaking).

Keep in mind we exist within time. If you believe as I do, God exists outside of time.

Because God is outside of time, he can see the beginning of time and the end of time at the same time.

We have the free will to do as we please, but since God already knows what decisions we are going to make from His position outside of time, He knows to plan accordingly -- thus predestination.

Does that make a lick of sense? ;)

I am a believer of free will. I guess life would be a lot more boring to me if you had no choice, but you were going to do what you were going to do. The thing that trips me out is, if someone reads your future and say they told you that you were going to be killed on a certain day. Did that fortunetelling lead you to do something that would make you die on that day? If you didnt know what happened in that fortunetelling would you not die on that day? Its a mind trip.

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Originally posted here by S1lv3rW3bSurf3r
Hey didnt Nostradamus make a whole lot of predictions?!

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Nostradamus made a lot of general predicitions. Then people fit those predicitons to events after they have happened. My problem with him is that none of his followers predict these events before they happened.

Edit: Hit submit too fast and didnt finish the thought.

Look at it from a time perspective instead of a control perspective, Jarrod, and you'll understand better where I'm coming from. Let me reword it this way:

If you could hop in a time machine, go ten years into the future and visit me, then you could find out what decisions I had made (free will) up until that point in the future. Then, you could come back to present day and plan your response to those actions accordingly (predestination). Have you taken away any of my free will? Does it mean my actions are pre-decided by someone other than myself? Nope. It just means you can see ahead by moving back and forth along the time line ahead of me.

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Nostradamus made a lot of general predicitions. Then people fit those predicitons to events

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Yeah, I'm very reserved in my opinion of his "predictions". Some of them are interesting, but there's just too much room for interpretation discrepencies.

Thoughts over coffee....

If you place a mouse in a maze with food at the end, he is set in a predetermined state by his master. He is preordained to reach the end of the maze for his existence depends on it. He has no choice and he knows of no easy way to reach his predetermined destiny. He wrinkles his nose, squeeks out a mousy "****" and sets off events to his destination (destiny) racing around using "FREE will" to determine his best cause of action to achieve nirvana in a piece of cheese.

Except some mice curse their Master for not putting the piece of cheese right there in front them instead of making them run a maze, or they deny there even is a Master, and presume that the maze just came into being out of some amazing random course of events, and thus there is no cheese at the end. So they sit down, squeak a "hmph" of frustration toward the other "unenlightened" mice running the maze, and never get the cheese, out of nothing but stubborn ignorance and pride.

To take that illustration a little further... ;)

Free Will - the ability to reject bullshit and glean things of value.

Predestination - being forcefed both bullshit and things of value.

I prefer free will thank you, although, had I a time machine I could've given Hitler's mom a condom at just the right moment and saved us a world of headache...

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Originally posted here by |3lack|ce
I prefer free will thank you, although, had I a time machine I could've given Hitler's mom a condom at just the right moment and saved us a world of headache...

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I love thinking about this kind of stuff. Say Hitler never was born. A lot of people might of lived a lot longer but the consequences of them living could be worse (or a hell of a lot better) than what we know as history. Suppose you stopped Hitlers birth and then his mom had quaduplets who were all messed up? You never can tell the consequences of yoru actions in time travel.

Edit: The movie "The Butterfly Effect" got me thinking about this. The movies ending sucks, but the movie got you thinking that changing something in the past might not always be good or might not come out the way you think.

Yes what if Germany and Hitler never came to power and Russia was not devestated in War, Stalin could have done worse, or what if he wasn't born at all and his Iron will did not force the collective of Soviets into an alliance?

The Universe is Choatic.

This reminds me of an excellent book I read the past summer. It is avaliable online (here) but I highly suggest you buy it. It talks about this, and alot of other things, it's by the author of Dilbert, I suggest you read it.

As for the question; I'm not sure which I believe... (Not to be offencive, and I'm sorry if I am, but), but if God gives us freewill, then He is not omnipotent, and if he is infact omnipotent, then we don't have free will (read the book, it'll explain it. :-)). Plus who says God exists in the form we believe? Or at all? There have been/are many relegions, and they can't all be right... can they?

Nothing adds up.

microburn

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A lot of people might of lived a lot longer but the consequences of them living could be worse (or a hell of a lot better) than what we know as history. Suppose you stopped Hitlers birth and then his mom had quaduplets who were all messed up?

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Exactly my point. You just demonstrated the paradox. Hitler had the free will to do what he did, but things worked out the way did for the truly ironic down-the-road benefit. For instance, what technological advances that have saved countless lives would never had been created were it not for the tech boom WWII brought us?

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Free Will - the ability to reject bullshit and glean things of value.

Predestination - being forcefed both bullshit and things of value.

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I really think this is a limited viewpoint. You're talking in terms of control, I'm talking in terms of time. Again, if I traveled to the future, learned what decisions you made, came back, then reacted to those decisions preemptively, am I forcing you through anything? No, I'm working my plan around your choices.

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The Universe is Choatic.

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That's your Second Law of Thermodynamics for ya. Gotta love that entropy.

Now, on a not-so-related note....

If Marty traveled back in time a fraction of a second in his Delorean, would he rearend himself?

:D

(Sorry for double-posting, trying to keep responses organized...)

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but if God gives us freewill, then He is not omnipotent

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Why not? If he can't give us free will, doesn't that also mean He's not omnipotent?

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There have been/are many relegions, and they can't all be right... can they?

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Does that mean they're all wrong? Why do they all have to be right? Why can't one/some be right and the others wrong? We see this true in countless other arenas of life...

I love talking about these things, but getting back to predestination vs free will
and off Hitler , time machines and condoms. A perfect example of this argument and how
it was brought up was back in Europe during the protestant reformation. To long and complicated to get into detail about. But if you are intrested look up info on the protestant
reformation , Martin Luther & John Calvin.

Wait...time machines? We have time machines? Where do I get one?!

:D

And the prize goes to RoadClosed, Congratulations Road.....

Predestination is impossible..... Whether predestination is ordained by a supreme being or not that concept of predestination is too fraught with the potential for disaster for it to be viable and it would have almost certainly failed by now.

Consider the gazillions of things that have to occur every day to every person. The "plan" is so complex that it's inconceivable the number of permutations. Then split second timing is required for every act, action and event. If one single piece of the "plan" becomes held up or doesn't occur exactly as planned then the entire "plan" begins to unravel. Once it starts to unravel it does so at a geometric rate until it fails completely. The result: Chaos.... Hmm... Maybe things were predestined once.... But we have evolved past predestination into a more logical existence..... ;) Or maybe it was just another convenient salve for the soul of those that require an explanation of why their gods allow atrocities, natural disasters and death when they aren't "necessary".....

That's my athiestic 2c.... It's actually worth a lot more.... :D

Yes and that is just OUR planet, add in the motion of the Solar System, out course in a sprial arm spining around the core of a galaxy and that galaxy, the Milkey Way hurling on it's own course among billions of Universes both like our own and some very different, spinning in oposite directions or just a glob of stars with no sprials. Amazing Chaos. Born of Choas, evovling among choas and terminated in chaotic events.

I guess we'll never acctually know... we can only assume... there's alot to consider, and alot that contridicts itself... who knows, maybe we'll know later on... *shrug*

microburn

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Why not? If he can't give us free will, doesn't that also mean He's not omnipotent?

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God is omnipotent and it is what makes him God at least what we've been lead to believe is
God(omnipotent). I know this may sound like i'm going in circles but there is a point to this.
It's not that God can't give us free will it's that he does or doesnt choose to. Just because
God can do what ever he wants he doesnt mean he does.
:rolleyes: Some food for thaught... If God made man then was it through free-will and if so
then maybe that is how man is like God . And as far as the tree in the garden of eve if God is
omnipotent he knew man would take it then was it his intention? :confused:

Haxor:

Now I know why you use that avatar.... Your thought processes confuses the crap outta me..... It must be awful to have to live with them..... ;)

I'll take that as a compliment... :D

It wasn't meant badly.... Just an observation.... ;)

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Or maybe it was just another convenient salve for the soul of those that require an explanation of why their gods allow atrocities, natural disasters and death when they aren't "necessary".....

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Ok, this is the second thread you brought this up in, and this time it's a little more relevant to the main topic, so I gotta finally jump in on this concept...

This seems to be a contradiction in your belief system to me. If we are evolving, why are humans the only species that have an instinctive need to create lies in order to cope with their existence? That doesn't seem very evolutionary to me. Why aren't we configured like all the other creatures in the world, who care not about such things? Is that really logical? If we instinctively are looking for a higher source that's not there to comfort ourselves, then we must be really evolutionary screwed up.

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Born of Choas, evovling among choas and terminated in chaotic events.

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If you've studied any philosophy junk, you can probably predict the counterpoint I'm about to throw at you --

If everything's so chaotic, then why is there order in the universe? Why do we have a state of order to degrade from in the first place? In that sense we're devolving.

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This seems to be a contradiction in your belief system to me. If we are evolving, why are humans the only species that have an instinctive need to create lies in order to cope with their existence? That doesn't seem very evolutionary to me. Why aren't we configured like all the other creatures in the world, who care not about such things? Is that really logical? If we instinctively are looking for a higher source that's not there to comfort ourselves, then we must be really evolutionary screwed up.

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Now now...
"Instinctive need" is exactly what it is. 100,000 years ago, everybody believed in some sort of higher power. Nowadays probably only 70% still does (just a figure... no clue what the exact figure would be). My point: that number is going down, and it's probably going to keep on going down. The more science evolves, the more that number is going to go down.

Same goes for evolution Vs. creation. Before Darwin, almost everybody believed that God (or at least some higher power) created man. The US is one of the only Western countries were a majority of the population still believe in creationism (in Western Europe, that number is almost down to zero - creationism is taught, but not as a fact). Darwin caused a scientific revolution, and the number of people believing in creationism went down significantly. This number keeps on going down with every new scientific discovery.

Instinct indeed is the word. Some of our instinct we need to survive (fear, for example... although you could probably survive in a civilized nation nowadays without that instinct) and that's an instinct that we still have. The less need there is for it, though, the less it's going to evolve. Most, if not all, of our instincts are declining. Instinct evolution has become instinct devolution.

Evolution only takes care of needed "upgrades". It doesn't care about stuff that isn't necessary.

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If everything's so chaotic, then why is there order in the universe? Why do we have a state of order to degrade from in the first place? In that sense we're devolving.

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I don't think there's "order" in the universe. There is order within chaos, sure, just like there is *some* order in every chaos. And you're mixing up our (human) evolution with the "evolution" of the universe. The universe doesn't "evolve"... it changes. Humans evolve or devolve (and change, too... heh).

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If we are evolving, why are humans the only species that have an instinctive need to create lies in order to cope wit their existence?

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two questions:-

1. How do you know we are?
2. Is it possible that, by creating our own stress.... Which no-ne can deny we do.... We are the only ones that create a need for a method with which to deal with and justify our existence.

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Why aren't we configured like all the creatures in the world

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We are... We just like to think that we are "civilized", that we have overlaid our primal instincts with a better, more advanced, way of dealing with things.... Would you like to see some video of the beheadings in Iraq..... Go look at them and tell me we are better then animals.... We aren't, there isn't an animal in the world that acts out of malice, except you and me.... Frankly I haven't met an animal yet that I distrust more than I distrust your average human being.... I know where the animal is coming from and I understand his/her needs and what the desires are in a given situation.... While humans exhibit _exactly_ the same needs and desires they are also "evil" in the way they may try to acheive them.... Much more dangerous!!!

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then we must be really evolutionary screwed up.

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What, because we are too stupid still to be able to understand that there are things we don't understand? This is where I believe "humanity" isn't opening it's eyes, let alone it's mind.... There are still too many people in this world that will accept a "story", regardless of it's origin, simply because it can't be refuted. But the point is that it is impossible to prove a negative, (that a supreme being doesn't exist), but no-one has proven the positive, that a supreme being exists.... Note the word _proven_!

The absolute proof of the arrogance of humanity is the belief in a supreme being. It means that we are so knowledgable and powerful that anything we cannot control or understand _has_ to be the product of a supreme being. It doesn't take into account the fact that we might not _yet_ have the information..... It will/may come.... It isn't that long ago that we decided that lightning wasn't an act of god, the pope himself just a few years ago said... "Errrr... Ok, we accept evolution"..... Can't you see the pattern?

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If everything's so chaotic, then why is there order in the universe? Why do we have a state of order to degrade from in the first place? In that sense we're devolving.

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Order is a product of time.... Time change, order thus changes. Order doesn't change radically over short time periods thus the illusion of order exists.... but over longer time samples the order changes to a greater extent..... It's still chaos..... You just see chaos as an instant and immediate thing.... It's not....

Angelic... We disagree on our beliefs.... But if you want to argue them I can do it all day and all night. I once went three weeks solid on a bet with a person who completed seminary on a bet that he could change my belief system..... At the end of the three weeks his statement was "You were right... You have a strong belief system and I can't change it.... But you made me think too....."

Lets not let our differences in belief make us not like each other.... It ain't worth it.... Okay? ;)

My shy little Papillion hides out of site while the bigger dog munches a bone. Then when distracted by fine smelling beef cooking in the kitchen the Papillion sneaks into postion, almost deceitful intentions to "steal" the bone right under the nose of the owner. She has already at eher bone you see and the prize is too tempting. She risks retributon over her selfish need for a delicious bone.

Pretty "human like?" Animals even shun outcasts who don't perform well or are not liked in the herd, pack or group of monkeys. They somewhat show human attributes when analyzed and is the monkey of today smarter than 1000 years ago?

There is some truth that the Universe is choas from order depending on your take on reality and cosmology. But be careful that is evidence of a big bang ya know. ;)

Negative, don't leave out south America from the west. It's a continent that makes our christianity look tame. :p And don't get me started on voodoo in the caribean.

Road > By "Western" countries I meant ummm... how shall I say this... 1st world-countries?

On Omnipotent beings and free will - yes, it's possible to have both. Suppose he (insert your God here, this isn't religious in particular) put you here because he knows you well enough to know what choices you'll make? You still have free will to screw up and make the different choice, but the Omnipotent being knew ya would anyways...

Is anticipating your opponent's move in a chess match, or a poker game really predestination? I think not. Life's the same way, just a bit higher stakes.

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Is anticipating your opponent's move in a chess match, or a poker game really predestination?

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No, but anticipation is not knowing, it's an educated guess. Take it a step further, and if you are in God's position of power, you can shape your world's plan so that those who by free will choose the righteous path are destined to move on to greater things. Of course, the opposing response to that is "But that's not fair!"....But take it as you will.

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Lets not let our differences in belief make us not like each other.... It ain't worth it.... Okay?

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Tig, you shouldn't worry about that. I'll make you defend your claims in a debate, but I will always do so respectfully. I'm not so much intent on changing your belief as I am analyzing it. I analyze and pick apart everything, question everything, counterpoint everything, which is what has led me to the beliefs I hold to now. I try to come at everything frome every direction until I know that I'm standing on the right ground. But note I haven't been in one single flame war during my whole time here at AO, so don't worry about that. I will always respect your beliefs no matter how different they are. Doesn't mean I won't poke at them when they're thrown out there into the field though...I'm rather accustomed to being around people of opposing beliefs. I question those beliefs openly and often, but I respect them while doing so. In fact, I have a couple of agnostic/atheist friends that I rather adore as people. And yes, I too could go for weeks without budging, I understand what you're saying.

Interesting though, some of the points that serve as disproof to you actually serve as proof for me. For instance, the presence of an evil among the human race that doesn't exist among lesser species reinforces to me the belief that there is also a greater evil out there...And my friend, if you ever study Satanism, it's very enlightening. Under the surface, that evil is afraid of one particular God for some reason...The presence and nature of evil that I've seen firsthand is one of the greatest proofs of that "fourth dimension" that I've yet encountered. I wonder if some people are evil beyond what would otherwise be impossible for a human being, unassisted.

Neg, it's a good point, but I put no weight in statistics. In fact, I also see people getting consistently stupider as we "advance". People in our industry especially should see that. "Don't teach me anything, just make it convenient." Yeah, there's evolution for ya. I think we're going back to monkeys. ;) I say that half-jokingly of course.

I also think it's interesting saying that men create God out of their pride. The concept of God humbles me. I would think that if we wanted to see our grand race as superior, we would be thinking of ourselves as gods and not looking to or creating a higher power. That seems to go against arrogance, not support it.

Just some thoughts...

My personal belief, however, is that you can only follow logic so far. Let's face it, none of your beliefs are logical. This entire world we know just came from one big explosion? You find that easy to swallow? There's a supreme being above everyone, unseen? Is that easy to accept? We've been in a constant transformation process over centuries of time, meaning once we were almost an entirely different creature? That easy to buy into? The universe is nothing but chaos? Is that easily acceptable?

My point is that all our beliefs are way out there. The aethist's is just as outlandish as the creationist's, just in a different direction. Just goes to show logic alone can only take you so far. Whatever you belief caused us being here, it's a wild concept. So saying each other's "just doesn't make sense" borderlines on arrogant, that's just silly. I realize mine's far-fetched, but I realize yours is too...and yours....and yours...

Perhaps that's one point we can all be in consensus on? The world is strange place.

Freewill vis Predestination.

I lived with a woman for five years who believed she was clairvoint. She and her family were members of the Spiritualist Church. In the time i lived with her she continualy refered to freewill. It always struck me as the get out of anything answere. I do however believe that i was pe-destined to live a hell on earth for those five years. :(

But then i exorcised my freewill, woo hoo i'm a free man.

Angelic:

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For instance, the presence of an evil among the human race that doesn't exist among lesser species reinforces to me the belief that there is also a greater evil out there...

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Ever watched the well fed cat play with the mouse? You can hear the mouse saying "ok, I quit... give it up, you ain't hungry... I'm just making a living...."

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And my friend, if you ever study Satanism, it's very enlightening.

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Ok.... Here's one of my "biggies".... God is omnipotent, right? Satan was an archangel, right? Archangels aren't anywhere near as powerful as an omnipotent being, right? So why doesn't god just kick his ass and have done with it? It's either a FUD issue or god isn't omnipotent or, worse yet, god is like the cat playing with his mice..... he _likes_ to screw with them.... let's not mention dropping in the odd hurricane or volcano to really mess with their minds.... It doesn't make sense for a _benevolent_ supreme being to be simply messing with his creations like toys without any emotions.... Why, and I am asking that question, would he/she/it do that?

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This entire world we know just came from one big explosion? You find that easy to swallow?

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Not only easy to swallow, very easy.... Why? Because we are probably wrong... But that's ok, we're stupid too.... I can accept that. Why can't you?

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The universe is nothing but chaos

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I _think_ you misunderstand "chaos" as I said in my previous post. Chaos isn't the dictionary definition in the way we use it in normal language. Chaos is the state that is opposite to predestination. It's a state where things occur that lead to other things and so on, and on and on.... It's not anarchy every second, yet it is in a way. Chaos is the series of events that, taken individually, would lead nowhere but over time and with sufficient "choices", actions and reactions within the entirity leads the universe down a path. If any single thing changes in that it affects the others somewhere down the line. Predestination states that _all_ things will happen _this_ way.. period, end of discussion. But what happens if it doesn't? Ah.... We have chaos...... Which is more logical? If predestination _ever_ fails then chaos _is_ the result. But predestination would have recognized that and allowed for it's final downfall.... So predestination is only chaos "ordered" for a period of time. Hence my statement in my earlier post that order is an illusion by the fact that chaos isn't immediate, it takes time....

Are you getting this? I'm not entirely sure I am.... ;)

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Ever watched the well fed cat play with the mouse?

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Soooo...Who's the fat cat? :confused:

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Satan was an archangel, right? Archangels aren't anywhere near as powerful as an omnipotent being, right? So why doesn't god just kick his ass and have done with it? It's either a FUD issue or god isn't omnipotent or, worse yet, god is like the cat playing with his mice..... he _likes_ to screw with them.... let's not mention dropping in the odd hurricane or volcano to really mess with their minds.... It doesn't make sense for a _benevolent_ supreme being to be simply messing with his creations like toys without any emotions...

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I have no clue.

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But that's ok, we're stupid too.... I can accept that. Why can't you?

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Ah...Actually, I'm probably stupider than you are...

You bring up great questions, to which I can only say I don't know, and rely on faith from that point forward. It's not a blind faith though. I've walked with logic up until the point I best can, and once I've reached that abyss that logic cannot cross, faith has taken me the rest of the way.

For instance, look at where you don't use logic -- You're closest friends are hopefully the people you know you can trust totally. Have you explored every nook, cranny, aspect, and factor of their lives to conclude this? No, you've learned enough to know that you can have faith in the them for the rest. Logically, for all you know they could be horrible people when hidden by the unseen (it's entirely, logically possible), but you know them well enough to trust that they're not. You don't have to launch an investigation into every aspect of them.

So, for me, the same is true here. My own life has proved that there is at least a God, and that the path I'm following is leading toward Him...now as far as the other questions, I don't know, but I know enough to trust that somehow, it fits together in a way beyond my understanding.

It's the fine line between blind faith and justified trust, and it's what allows me to honestly say "I don't know" instead of pretending I have all the answers...

Angelic: I do have faith.... absolute faith.... faith in our species stupidity.... I just know the answers are there because where my logic fails me it also tells me that I am inadequate, not that logic failed. Logic can't fail, or it isn't logic any more. Learn to trust it not to discard it because _you_, (and I), lack the information required to make the truths work.

wow, thank you so much guys for the responses. each one of them is emotive and thought provoking, i could not have hoped for better answers. thank you ......
Angelic : Dr. Hugh Ross/David Cho?!

Tiger Shark, as always, thank you, to each and everyone, who responded, I say thank you. My question is not even christian based, but thanks for the angle, it is religiously based though. I have read Tuesday Lobsang Rampa's Beyond the Tenth. Tis Why I was wondering. How can I see the future if it is not there already?! happening in the now. sometimes i come across an event in my life and go, damn, i know i was here before, like deja vu, but wow .... hey i aint no loon ............

like so, (even though i am a born again angelic) ................

Do i need a shrink?! haha, probably, anyone ?!

Quote:

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Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
Angelic: I do have faith.... absolute faith.... faith in our species stupidity.... I just know the answers are there because where my logic fails me it also tells me that I am inadequate, not that logic failed. Logic can't fail, or it isn't logic any more. Learn to trust it not to discard it because _you_, (and I), lack the information required to make the truths work.

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Actually Logic can fail, even Dr. Spock had to admit to Capt Kirk that Logic has its limits and that at a point emotion (the gut feeling) must take over. I believe they were each others exact and equal opposites?!

I do also believe that depending on whos views and opinions, logic can make 1+1 = 2 logically and make 1+1 =2 from a different, diamettrically opposed point of view, its exact equal and opposite, hence balance..... is this also not what the Architect (matrix) aludes to in his soliquy, Ergo etc etc ?!