Lucifer != Satan

I was watching a show on conspiracy theory awhile back, and when one of the speakers referred to Satan as Lucifer I knew he had not done enough biblical research to be worth listening to. The name Lucifer comes from a misunderstanding of Isaiah 14:12:
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KJV:
How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!

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NIV:
How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!


The Hebrew Bible refers to Heylel Ben-Shachar (yes, I know technically there were no vowels), which means something along the lines of “morning star son of the morning.” Heylel Ben-Shachar is translated to Lucifer (Roman name for the planet Venus, and one of their Gods) by Jerome for the Vulgate and by extension the JKV of the Bible. If one reads Isaiah 14 in it's entirety it appears to be referring to the king of Babylon (my understanding is Tiglath-Pileser III) who was hauty and prideful but was laid low by God. He is even referred to as a man in verse 16:
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KJV:
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

So Lucifer is not the same as Satan. Don't believe everything you read in a book by John Milton. Smile Attached are some more references that might clear things up.

Some references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
http://www.everything2.com/
http://www.kjvonly.org/doug/notes_on_lucifer.htm

I always thought lucifer was satan .. i thought it was his name not that i am interested in anything religious .. but it is a huge misconception then

yeah, im pretty sure lucifer is the root of luminescence (sP?) somehow, or at least it seems to be

Irongeek, im lost on your citations. Could you explain (in simple english -- past was too ellaborate for me :P) what is the difference between them? im interested.

er0k : Close, it means light-bearer and is some times translated as Morning Star.

cacosapo: I'm not sure what you are asking.

In the winter in the Northern hemisphere, the planet Venus is generally clearly visible, and very bright. Hence the colloquialism "Morning Star"

The rest is mostly poetic licence, the analogy being Satan's fall from grace and the fall from the heavens of its brightest "star"

Lucifer is derived from Lux, Lumen (or something like that) which is Latin in Greek it is something like Eileen (girl's name meaning light), in Hindi: Noor, Arabic: Nur.

It is all semantics and poetic licence............just about every language has a word implying light or luminescence.

In the old days matches were referred to as "lucifers"...........that could be because of the light they provide, but I suspect it was more likely their sulphur content..........."hellfire and brimstone" :D

Remember that the King James I Bible and John Milton (Paradise Lost & Paradise Regained) were roughly contemporary............you are just looking at the semantics of that period in history.

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yes, I know technically there were no vowels

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No, that is not correct. Both hebrew and Arabic (both semitic peoples BTW) have vowels. There are two versions of their languages, the common and the formal ("Koranic Arabic" for example). Vowels do not appear in the body of a word, but as accents or punctiation mark like entries.

Legal and religious documents would be written in the formal text, as it prevented misinterpretation. The common versions were very context orientated, and things can and are taken out of context ;)

Satan, Beelzebub, Lucifer, and the great Djall are one and the same.

:D

Hmm...Don't satanists refer to him as lucifer as well?

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Originally posted here by AngelicKnight
Hmm...Don't satanists refer to him as lucifer as well?

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What kind of Satanist? Satanist’s of the Lavey tradition might, just to thumb their noses at Christians but really Anton Lavey’s church has very little to do with the Christian concept of Satan. As for the kid who listened to too much metal in the early eighties, he’s just ignorant of the words meaning.

im asking about the diference between satan and lucifer. I couldnt understand your explanation.
I allways think that both are the same "person".

Read some of the links I put at the end, as it turns out "Lucifer" is referring to a Babylonian king.

In Dutch, "lucifer" still is the word for matches. It's derived from the Latin "lux" (light) and "ferre" (to bring).
Lucifer is the light-bringer, whomever that is...

And satanists don't believe in a higher being (be it God or Satan or Lucifer).
His name is only being used to symbolize the "rebellion against God's autocracy", and that's what satanists still believe: rebellion against any form of oppression/tyranny, standing up for your own beliefs not dictated by some higher power, resulting in a free spirit.

Hebrew didn't use to have vowels. The punctuations and accents Nihil is talking about only got added later.

And here is a more understandable explanation of what Irongeek posted.

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And satanists don't believe in a higher being (be it God or Satan or Lucifer).

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Oh, I'm afraid you're off the mark on that one, perhaps you're talking about a different flavor of satanists. However, I've studied satanism directly and have learned quite a bit...they very much believe in both God and satan. In fact, there are satanic rituals used that are intended to conjure up the physical incarnation of satan.

What you studied was the pseudo Anton LaVey-crap, and the stuff the church used to make "satanists" look bad. Satanism is nothing more than a "modern" form of paganism. The term "satanism" is not a satanist's invention: it's an invention of the Catholic church to discredit the old pagan beliefs (the Celts, the Norse,... - all the old "nature" religions).

It's crap alright, but it's still alive and well. They're quite active here in Little Rock presently, and these guys weren't invented by catholics, that's for sure.

It all started with the witch-hunts. To discredit pagans ("witches"), they were told to be involved in "satanic" rituals. They weren't, of course, but it was a powerfull suggestion and it did the job. Since then, everything leaning towards nature rather than a higher being, has always been associated with "satan". The people you are talking about are the ones who think it was "cool" how witches were thought and told to be involved in mystic satanic rituals (dark rituals, a lot of sex,... - that's more than enough to make some hilbillies happy).

These guys are a lot more serious than just thinking old-time witches were cool. Local law enforcement that I've been involved with has been having a field day with this...Some very interesting stories some cops are coming back with. The typical superstitious hillbilly out here (don't even get me started on that one), as well as the growing local wiccan populations are both entirely different stories.

Hit some police sources and do some more research if you get bored some time...You'll find some interesting stuff.

That's not what I'm saying... they are calling themselves satanists because they want to be identified with what the catholic church made satanism to be, not what satanism really is about.

The scene you're talking about is similar to the Norwegian Black Metal scene (linked to the Bandidos, the Hells Angel's competitors). Most original members (both Black Metal and Bandidos) are in jail (from burning down churches over homicide to rape). There are numerous court reports on those trials, and they have one thing in common: "We did it because it was cool to be linked to satan and dark forces".

Ah, gotcha. Well needless to say, they're about as psycho as a human being can get.

So neg are any of the black mass type satanists still active in europe? these where the guys who where very close to gnostics, they worshiped personal power, basicly felt that you could gain power through satan or god but each had a cost. Personaly I think Laevy was one of these, his followers where mostly dupes but he never realy beleaived most of the crap he spewed.

As for lucifer=satan, not in the bible i think, but in some of the jewish texts that told the stories of the religion (like the lilth story) satan was called the light bringer when he was cast out of the host of angles.

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linked to the Bandidos, the Hells Angel's competitors

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I see Badidos all the time. They have a clubhouse near here. They aren't all in jail... :eek: Of course 2 years ago they were cleared out for a while because they were plotting the muder of an FBI agent and someone ratted them out.

\\Edit ah you are talking about Norway?

BBallad > Here's an interesting article on Black Metal. As you can see, those guys were really into it... heh. Now, they're either dead (murdered by other Black Metallists), in jail (for murdering other Black Metallists, or setting churches on fire) or have distanced themselves from it (to, for example, go neo-nazi... lol).

But fear the new wave: Eastern European black metal bands... 15 years too late as usual and not aware of the fact that it's out-dated yet :eek:

Ugh...such is a disgrace to we metal fans everywhere...

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Originally posted here by AngelicKnight
Ugh...such is a disgrace to we metal fans everywhere...

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hey watch your mouth :D

btw, there is evangelic metal bands too

Caco, reread my post, we're on the same page.

I'm a Convervative Republican Christian who listens to death metal and hardcore...I'm about as strange as you can get. ;)

Evangelistic bands: Living Sacrifice, Demon Hunter, Underoath...some key favorties of mine. :D

Oh wait...I think I just took us WAY off topic! Oops!

I listened to what I could find from those bands... heh... you sure that's not supposed to be called just "pop music" instead of metal? :D

im under the impression that lucifer the god of southern italy, consort to diane, became satan when constantine invaded. being as the god of the enemy was always thought of as a satan. the title stuck when southern italy lost. if they won he'd probably just just be another long forgotten god today

Depends on which album you listened to Neg...Underoath's newest has shifted to emocore, so they're more poppy...Demon Hunter kinda has a mix of styles...Living Sacrifice though, you call them pop, and you need a brain check. ;) They're homegrown here from Little Rock, band's no longer though since their members broke off to join P.O.D. and Evenescence.

POD and Evanescence... uhu... :p

Evanesence ROCKS! So Does POD, and Linkin Park, and....ok back to the topic now....go on:)

Hey hey, I never said POD and Evanescene were that hard...just the band that helped get them both going. Jason Truby was a much more wicked guitar player when with Sacrifice as well...However, Amy Lee is much more pleasant to look at on stage. ;)

So...What were we talking about again?

"The Light Bearer VS Day Star or Morning Star."

"The term Lucifer is attributed to Satan as a name. The term has become personalised and has taken on a negative sense. Similarly, the term Morning Star has been attributed to Christ in a personalised fashion. When the Bible appears to refer to Satan as Day Star or Morning Star and to Christ as the Light-bearer, which is the sense of Lucifer, people apply the names in this personalised way and come to the wrong conclusion. Some have even gone to the extent of confusing Christ with Satan."

Although I understand that we are talking about the terms "satan" and "lucifer" as used in the christian bible, I would like to respond to some misconceptions about the religion Satanism.

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Originally posted here by Negative
That's not what I'm saying... they are calling themselves satanists because they want to be identified with what the catholic church made satanism to be, not what satanism really is about.

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To agree with you, what AngelicKnight is actually referring too are "Luciferians" (assuming that Lucifer = that Christian fallen angel), who actually believe in the Christian religion, but choose the "other side". Satanists, however, usually do not believe in any theory without enough scientific evidence to prove that theory. There is a BIG difference.

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Originally posted here by bballad
So neg are any of the black mass type satanists still active in europe? these where the guys who where very close to gnostics, they worshiped personal power, basicly felt that you could gain power through satan or god but each had a cost. Personaly I think Laevy was one of these, his followers where mostly dupes but he never realy beleaived most of the crap he spewed.

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Anyone thinking they can gain power by worshipping or using some external fictional personality certainly isn't a Satanist. LaVey was NOT one of these people. If you, personally, really have such an oppinion, I recommend doing some more research before forming your prejudices.

About the "correct" interpretation of the christian bible, remember that christianity really isn't that old. Most of the stories in the bible can be traced back to Roman, Greek, Babylonian and Arabic mythology.

To be off-topic, I'm more of a "Techno" man when it comes to music, although I usually don't limit myself to any specific genre. :)

Dawrf, ppwer through external is a mistake this is true, power from self is preferd..that is lavey...trace that back to golden dawn and crawly...then back to the founding fathers of this country..not sure where it gose before then...probably back to the gnostics and magus.

NEG, your artical left out King Dimond...I am a bit familiar with black metal

BBallad > I've always used anus.com for some "guidance"... It doesn't have King Diamond on there, though. Lots of Burzum (with mp3's)!

Lol, my misguided friend USED to be a huge King Diomand fan, that is until he saw them in concert a long time ago and king spit in his face from the stage. LOL. Was a huge nasty one I hear....

I was always under the impression that lucifer was the first feistel-key powered cryptosystem =p

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Originally posted here by bballad
Dawrf, ppwer through external is a mistake this is true, power from self is preferd..that is lavey...trace that back to golden dawn and crawly...then back to the founding fathers of this country..not sure where it gose before then...probably back to the gnostics and magus.

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LaVey, Crowley, and the Golden Dawn are very different things. There are a few similarities, but one certainly isn't a direct result of the other. I'm not sure how you're fitting your country's founding fathers into this. Crowley was english, and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn can also be traced back to england. Before that we end up with ancient european pagan traditions.

its all about power dwarf, levey gains power (in a very real temporal fassion) from his fallowers, he just extrapalated from crawley(who took over the goldn dawn mutateing the group into its more memerable occult form). Craly took his ideas form the older black mass type cultest and high level masonic ideas, last seen in power in this country running a revolution...A lot of there occult atttatudes can be traced back to gnosticism , which barrowed a lot from the greek mystery cults....

Now why do you speek of european pagensistic traditions as if they where related?

There is alot of stuff missing from that anus.com site.

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There is alot of stuff missing from that anus.com site.

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Ya know...That's just something you really shouldn't say around here. :D