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I'd like to get the community's opinions on this story.
Link to FT.com story on North Korea
Mostly bad? No one's worried?
Regardless of whether this turns into an international problem and affects the US I think it's just a matter of time before these hackers get unhappy about their wages/position/etc and start doing a little freelancing.
Im a lil worried but we do have organization's like CERT and other people and places who routinely check the internet for new hackers,crackers,viruses etc... so if something did come of that we would be able to know and respond quickly.
I wouldn't be suprised if this was a trend that continues. Attacking a organziation's information infrastructure is a very viable target if you intend to cripple that organization. No matter if that organization if a country or a company.
I also wouldn't be suprised if the US and other large countries aren't well into a program to do the same thing.
Well given that the North Korean government has stricter controls on communications than pre collapse russia or current day China I don't think them freelancing is something that we really have to worry about. If they start to get upset about their wages and do something out of line, they would most likely be killed. You can't compare what disgruntled employees in the united states would do to what people living in a dictatorship would do. The mindset is just completely different and can't be compared..
is it an issue, or course it is. That is one of the main reasons the US is so worried about getting into a war with N. Korea. We should also be worried about their army of 1.6million troops and the other 3million reserve troops that they can muster. Not to mention the thousands of short range missiles that are locked onto targets in South Korea. If an all out war were to start with N. Korea they would wreak havoc on us, and their neighbors to the South. I'm not so sure that we could win a war with N. Korea.
Considering the two major events that happened this year involving North Korea (Train wreck and the infamous initially-declared-as "forest fire", I would be surprised if they thought they could do a lot. It is an issue, but I'm fairly sure that we could catch it in time and block out their internet traffic which only works until they go covert in some other country, hehe...
North Korea would only have a reason to attack us if we were in a full out war on them.. They are not going to sit around just seeing what they can do. You must remember that we are not dealing with 16year kids here, we are dealing with militarily trained soldiers. And if you think those hackers couldn't wreak havoc on us I think you are wrong. There have been many wargame scenarios conducted and North Korea almost always wins whether or not they use an atomic bomb.
We can't even stop a virus written by a 17year old german, what makes you think we can stop hundreds of soldiers who are far more skilled and trained that any of the virus kiddies.
While I believe that N. Korea is definatly developing some weapons program, and undobutedly has highly trained, non-script kiddie, computer-hacker-specialists, i dont believe we are in terrible danger militarily. I am proud to live in America, and while i lean more twords disolving ALL military forces and weapons in EVERY country, I also sleep well every night knowing that we have one of the strongest, smartest(?), and best trained military forces in existance. Like the 100th south park episode moral says, we need a strong military and supporters of that military in order to protect our country just as much as we need people who are against war and the military in order to not appear as either war and power hungry, or totally weak and defenseless. Just my 10 cents....Quote:
If an all out war were to start with N. Korea they would wreak havoc on us, and their neighbors to the South. I'm not so sure that we could win a war with N. Korea. [/B]
-z3
We would definitly win a war against N. Korea without a doubt. The United states has technology that the rest of the world hasn't even began to imagine yet. North korean might have their military trained hackers but so does the US. The United States Air Force has it's own cyber war devision, as well as other branches in the US military.
I'm not scared of their 1.6 million troops. Saddam had over a million troops in the first gulf war and the US and it's allies plowed through and destroyed 80% of it's military. The only reason the US didn't destroy 100% was because we didn't want to leave iraq to weak for iran. Maybe back in vietnam you needed a ton of troops, but today's wars aren't about how many troops you have, it's about the technology and the US and Japan (which are allies) have the best technology in the world.
Another thing, North Korea doesn't have nearly as many allies as the US does...
Ask yourselves how many crackers Britain (or America, France, any other NATO country) trained during the cold war to attack the soviets...
How many do they have today? Probably a lot more.
Like spying, cracking is something that can basically "legitimately" be carried out against your allies or during peacetime.
Slarty
Quote:
Originally posted here by The Duck
I'm not scared of their 1.6 million troops. Saddam had over a million troops in the first gulf war and the US and it's allies plowed through and destroyed 80% of it's military. The only reason the US didn't destroy 100% was because we didn't want to leave iraq to weak for iran. Maybe back in vietnam you needed a ton of troops, but today's wars aren't about how many troops you have, it's about the technology and the US and Japan (which are allies) have the best technology in the world.
Another thing, North Korea doesn't have nearly as many allies as the US does...
So how do you explain that most DoD wargame simulations run since 1991 have shown N. Korea to be the victor with extremely heavy losses to US troops and to S. Korean civilians? You have to remember that the US was the technological leader in the vietnam conflict and we didn't win that one. Not to mention that we couldn't beat the N. Koreans in the Korean conflict. They fight harder and better than our soldiers because they believe in the cause. Go ask the soldiers over in Iraq if they believe in the cause and we all know what the answer will be. Why would they feel any different about a war in N. Korea.. The North Korean soldiers blaim the US for the economic depression that they have in that country, they hate us, and will fight like a badger in a corner.
If our government thought we could just walk all over the N. Koreans we would have taken them out before Iraq. We know we can't which is why we are being so diplomatic with them. Do a bit of research on what the N. Koreans have in terms of war capability and you will be impressed with the war machine that they have built. We don't have the number of troops that they do, and they can produce just as many weapons as we can. The North Koreans could have stomped all over Iraq just as we did.
At our highest troop count in the Persain Gulf war we and our allies had a little over 1 million troops assembled, how does that compare to 4million??? The Iraqi forces didn't have the ability to go and hide in underground bunkers or in mountains like the North Koreans can. We will not just be able to carpet bomb the entire country like we have with Iraq. The Iraqi forces were also very tired from fighting a 10 year war with Iran. North Korean troops are well rested, and highly trained... And us having technical hackers to set loose on them does us no good as they do not rely as heavily on computer networks. We can't shutdown their phone networks with computer attacks because they use analog phone lines that are all buried underground.
You may think we can win, but our military leaders don't think we can, atleast not without using nuclear weapons.
Here is a good synopsis of the N. Korean military. Most of this data can be confirmed on www.globalsecurity.org.
http://www.kimsoft.com/2003/nk-war-han.htm
Not to get off topic to much, but I think the chinese soldiers, had a little to do with the issue also.
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/kowar/kowar.htm
both china and n. korea have been doing this for years, speculation has it that they were responsible for the code red out break.
You have to keep in mind that was in 1991, and only 1991 according to that article you showed us. That was over a decade ago, now we got things like unmanned air craft and much more. And it only get's better from there, they estimate that in the year 2020, 1/3 of the US military will be robots.Quote:
So how do you explain that most DoD wargame simulations run since 1991 have shown N. Korea to be the victor with extremely heavy losses to US troops and to S. Korean civilians?
Not true, the United States' focus was not in east asia, it was in the middle east, targeting the terrorists and people who aid them.Quote:
If our government thought we could just walk all over the N. Koreans we would have taken them out before Iraq.
I did some research and if your numbers are correct, that means 1/4 of N. Korea's entire population is in the military!? I think not. I also highly doubt that the korean military permit many women to join, which makes your numbers even less accurate.Quote:
We should also be worried about their army of 1.6million troops and the other 3million reserve troops that they can muster.
That's what the bunker buster bomb is used for ;). We also got the daisy cutters and that one bomb, I forget the name, but it sucks the oxygen out of anyone's lungs within a 5 mile radius of the bomb... or something like that ;).Quote:
The Iraqi forces didn't have the ability to go and hide in underground bunkers or in mountains like the North Koreans can
Bottom line is, I never said it would be easy for the US to win, but we would win, if we really wanted to, with heavy casualties on both sides. But no country in the world can compete with the US air force. Once the US takes over the air, it's only a matter of time. Most of the North koreans have the fighting spirit, but they only have that spirit until the US unleashes their true firepower. The fire power you see in iraq today is nothing because we are worried about civilians. We get in true war with N. korea the military leaders won't give a rats ass about the civilians, especially if they are gonna use cheap tactics like chemical weapons. If they do use chemical weapons, the US population will get that "fighting spirit", and I guarentee you that the US will strike back with some form of nuclear weapons. And remember, we're not even sure if N. Korea has any nuclear weapons. If they do, they don't have enough to win a nuclear war with the US and it's allies.
P.S.
The US technology in the vietnam war was a joke... The united states might as well not even have any technology. The only technology the US really used was communication equipment.
Well I have no worries. I have a read a few government books had a few relatives in the government (US) and we most definately do have the same type of setup here. We have government hackers/crackers. We just choose not to talk about it. I believe the reason being is because the government doesn't want to tell the public not to hack but it is ok for them to do it on a regular basis. The wars seem to be migrating from a force military to a more technological driven military.
Lets look at an example. Anyone read the story of MafiaBoy if not do so. We had the FBI on this case and we caught the kid. This was an international manhunt or boy hunt whatever you want to call it. And everyday more and more hackers get taken down by FBI agents posing as hackers. The majority of these agents are truly hackers just living off of out tax money and legitamately allowed hacking sites.
- MilitantEidolon
Yes maybe...Just some thoughts Duck.... How can we "hope" to win a war when we are already stretched too thin? And last time I checked the military isn't as big as it used to be because of the downsizing.Quote:
We would definitly win a war against N. Korea without a doubt.
Current military "known" deployments:::
columbia:::http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americ...mbia.americans
Haiti:::http://www.inthesetimes.com/polls/index.php?poll_id=24
Philippines:::http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...type=printable
and of course Iraq and Afganistan!
Was it a joke?! What did we do, play hide and go seek?!? Com. equipment wasn't the only thing! Was this the part where you fell asleep in history class????-jk. I cringe to say this<because of my blood> but during WW2 German technology was the best<l337> in the world and the allies had coffins on wheels and pop guns and still were able to win- well because the mass amount of soldiers and ability to make more but thats another thread. What I'm trying to say is that weapons are not everything, its the ability to outsmart your enemy and use your forces effectively or the just the blant amount of soldiers you have and the knowing will to have them slaugthered for your cause. During the Viet'nam war we had superior weapons especially when compared to the VC and they still wooped our ass. Just thoughtsQuote:
The US technology in the vietnam war was a joke... The united states might as well not even have any technology. The only technology the US really used was communication equipment.
No one will launch a nuke...the moment one person does, there is nothing left to lose. Every country with one in its possesion will then launch theirs. Its called a zero-sum game.
The Duck, I don't understand why you don't believe that many women could be in the N. Korean army. I don't know much about them, but if they are even slightly communist (as apposed to pretending to be communist), they would probably have quite a few women in the army since one communist value is equality between sexes.
But I'm not sure that N. Korea is actually communist, so perhaps that point doesn't apply.
ac
i think america is waiting on a time bomb, america & the uk has dominated the world for centuries and this has only been possible through force and power of better technologies. the longer time goes on the easier it is for people to get hold of and utilise extremely effective and dangerous technologies and information resources. with the birth of the internet the rest of the world now has its chance to fight on an almost level playing field. as computers and the internet gets cheaper and more easily accessable more and more people are going to start thinking about 'computer warfare'. We do see it but not with wide enough eyes, we are at the start of a new era and for once we will not posess contol that we rely on to sustain our greedy ways of life.
Interesting ..
I, like many, had been “lurking” AO for quite a while before joining, years in fact. Then about a year and a half ago I saw a post about strange scans. I did a little research on the scans, got a little excited, joined AO to post my findings on the topic, did more research before posting and found that the scans were very specific toward ports registered with companies which manufactured and/or designed switches, valves, hardware, software, or offered security specifically for telecommunications and powerplants. Being a newbie I thought no one would listen to me, and being paranoid thought a post with those findings would attract government scrutiny towards me, so I quickly deleted my findings. With DoD wiping! I never posted those findings. ( sigh.... )
The point ( to connect this to the thread ) although I don’t remember where those scans originated from, at the same time period I had an alarming number of extremely annoying and intrusive scans originating from N. Korea, many from universities. So to hear they have trained hackers is not by any means a surprise.
And to kurt_der_koenig, I don’t know why you keep apologizing for being German ( if you are ) and WWII . Were you alive? Did you start the war? I believe ( records are sketchy ) that I am 2nd generation American of German decent. My Grandfather actually fought against the Germans in WWI in the American army. And I personally know ( or knew ) former German soldiers who did serve during WWII and they are (were ) decent people.
MafiaBoy was canadian so the GRC caught him by tapping his phoneline not the FBI! Besides that guy was really a dump kidQuote:
Originally posted here by MilitantEidolon
Lets look at an example. Anyone read the story of MafiaBoy if not do so. We had the FBI on this case and we caught the kid. This was an international manhunt or boy hunt whatever you want to call it. And everyday more and more hackers get taken down by FBI agents posing as hackers. The majority of these agents are truly hackers just living off of out tax money and legitamately allowed hacking sites.
- MilitantEidolon [/B]
Quote:
Originally posted here by The Duck
You have to keep in mind that was in 1991, and only 1991 according to that article you showed us. That was over a decade ago, now we got things like unmanned air craft and much more. And it only get's better from there, they estimate that in the year 2020, 1/3 of the US military will be robots.
That was one article. I'll try to find the other articles that I have read on the matter. It is easily available on the internet so if you google you will find it as well.
Where have you been? Iraq had nothing to do with terrorists. As a matter of fact the CIA just released information yesterday saying that Saddam at best produced very small quantities of WMD, and that he had nothing to do with Bin Laden.Quote:
Not true, the United States' focus was not in east asia, it was in the middle east, targeting the terrorists and people who aid them.
There are approximately 1.1 to 1.6 million regular troops. The rest of the military force that I am referring to are "reserve" type troops. Also known as the peoples army. So yes, it is regular citizens who have served previously in the military and women do serve in the military.Quote:
I did some research and if your numbers are correct, that means 1/4 of N. Korea's entire population is in the military!? I think not. I also highly doubt that the korean military permit many women to join, which makes your numbers even less accurate.
http://www.freenorthkorea.net/archiv...ea/000429.html
If you are going to make assumptions why don't you go do some net searches because your assumptions are wrong. There is nothing that I am not presenting here that I cannot back up with press releases. I cannot be 100% sure of anything as the true strength of the N. Korean military is kept secret, even our military planners don't know. But I'm not spewing out my opinion on any of this. If you want to continue the discussion I will only do so if you start checking your facts and opinions before you post them.
CIA World fact book North Korean population- 22,697,553 (July 2004 est.)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/kn.html
I'll just copy the following facts from the CIA fact book since you seem to think I am making these numbers up-
Military manpower - military age:
17 years of age (2004 est.)
Military manpower - availability:
males age 15-49: 6,181,038 (2004 est.)
Military manpower - fit for military service:
males age 15-49: 3,694,855 (2004 est.)
Military manpower - reaching military age annually:
males: 189,014 (2004 est.)
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$5,217.4 million (FY02)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
22.9% (2003)
You should note that the fit for service means the number of people who they feel would actually be on the front lines. That leaves almost 2.6million people able to provide background logistical support. In case you missed the link above- http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/kn.html
Yeah, those worked real well against Bin Laden didn't they? A bunker buster will not destroy a hardened nuclear facility. You would need something like the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator(RNEP) that is currently under development. It is a nuclear weapon and something that I don't even think we should be developing. Most government officials agree and more than likely this program will be stopped if Bush loses the election.Quote:
That's what the bunker buster bomb is used for ;). We also got the daisy cutters and that one bomb, I forget the name, but it sucks the oxygen out of anyone's lungs within a 5 mile radius of the bomb... or something like that ;).
I have seen estimates that the total death toll to South Korean civilians could easily reach 1 million on only a matter of months. The US could also expect to lose more soldiers than we did in Vietnam. Is that really worth it? Please also explain what firepower we have that we are not using? My father is a Marine Corp veteran of over 23 years, my brother just left the Marines and was the supply officer for Paris Island, not to mention one of my best friends father was 3rd in command at Eglin Air Force base which is where the future weapons development takes place. They developed the daisy cutter, the moab(the one you couldn't remember the name of) and the bunker buster. These are all people that I speak to on a regular basis and they are all deathly afraid of a war with N. Korea, I've grown up around the military my entire life and I don't know of any secret weapons that we have that we are not using in Iraq. We are not using weapons like the MOAB but those weapons are not intended to be used in urban settings. The US will never take a stance that civilian causalties are OK, it is against the Geneva convention to purposefully target civilians.Quote:
Bottom line is, I never said it would be easy for the US to win, but we would win, if we really wanted to, with heavy casualties on both sides. But no country in the world can compete with the US air force. Once the US takes over the air, it's only a matter of time. Most of the North koreans have the fighting spirit, but they only have that spirit until the US unleashes their true firepower. The fire power you see in iraq today is nothing because we are worried about civilians. We get in true war with N. korea the military leaders won't give a rats ass about the civilians, especially if they are gonna use cheap tactics like chemical weapons. If they do use chemical weapons, the US population will get that "fighting spirit", and I guarentee you that the US will strike back with some form of nuclear weapons. And remember, we're not even sure if N. Korea has any nuclear weapons. If they do, they don't have enough to win a nuclear war with the US and it's allies.
What are you talking about? The Bell UH-1 Huey helicopter is one of the best combat helicopters to ever fly. The F4 was the premier air/grounf fighter of the time and was still used well after the Vietnam conflict to train US pilots in dogfighting tactics. The M60 was and is a great weapon. The M16 is still the preferred weapon of most US forces, they did have problems with the weapon because of the environmental conditions but all of that was fixed before the end of the war. Not to mention the B-52 which was one of the best bombers ever built. The US and Russia had the best military technology available at the time.Quote:
The US technology in the vietnam war was a joke... The united states might as well not even have any technology. The only technology the US really used was communication equipment.
Since the end of the cold war the only superpower in the world is the US, that which is a bad thing in my opinion. Hence, from a global perception it is a good thing threats exist to the US.
Let me put my two cents in here; since this thread has turned political (go figure!) North Korea puts nearly even Won they have into their military while their people live with only the bare minimum. I feel the US could put up a good fight if North Korea planned an invasion of South Korea, but North Korea would run over with the sheer volume of people and all their underground tunnels. They have tunnels large enough to drive heavy armor and personnel directly into Seoul. The US needs to keep things peaceful with the North so that this kind of thing doesn't happen. It's in all of our best interests. As far as trained hackers, most definitely. They realize that this kind of warfare is what the world is turning in to.
My Question.... Where does Nort Korea get it's internet feed ????
There has to be an upstream provider... and I do not think that
provider would sit by while Nortk Korea starts an all out Hack Attack...
Actually I think it has aready begun... My servers keep sending alarms
from probes from a china assign IP address...
I would only be guessing but I would think that they get most of the telecommunications feeds through China. China is one of their major allies and trade partners.
just to clarify, The RMCP arent even sure if they got the real "mafia boy" traking hackers is hard work becasue so many skript kiddies claim to be the leet few. When traking mafia boy they found atleast 5 other claiming to be him. they finally tracked him down and bugged his house but they were never positive if it was the kid they nabbed or his brother. The assumtion was it was both of them performing the hacks and they just caught one of them red handed. this much trouble from someone who was far from skilled...
This has really gotten somewhat off topic with all the "Would we beat Korea" nonsense, so I suggest creating a thread in General Chit Chat if you want to further discuss that.
As far as governments hiring hackers, I can't say I'm surprised. Kevin Mitnick does contract work for various law enforcement agencies in the U.S.. Consider that these guys know the ins and outs, and if you want to accelerate the learning curve, you train them yourselves. "Cyberwarfare" is just a new way to wage informational wars, conduct industrial espionage, and generally wreak havoc.
chsh, agreed. Also, as the internet becomes further capable and heavily relied upon as a defense and economic vehicle, you will see more 3rd world nations and other bands of rabble rousers who will do whatever it takes to disrupt progress and cause mayhem. If that means training "attackers" then so be it. To me, this makes perfect sense from a logic standpoint. We (U.S.) do the *exact* same things so I don't see what the BFD is.
On a side note:
Nothing personal but reading this makes it clear that you have a very crude perception of warfare and strategy. Not that I want to debate it because I've seen enough war to last a lifetime, but the reason the U.S. lost in Vietnam was because we failed to remember the lesson we taught England during the revolution - an organized military, over the course of time, is ineffective against gorilla warfare - period.Quote:
What I'm trying to say is that weapons are not everything, its the ability to outsmart your enemy and use your forces effectively or the just the blant amount of soldiers you have and the knowing will to have them slaugthered for your cause. During the Viet'nam war we had superior weapons especially when compared to the VC and they still wooped our ass. Just thoughts
It wasn't gorilla warfare that beat english... we're learning about this war in my U.S. history class now lolQuote:
an organized military, over the course of time, is ineffective against gorilla warfare - period.