freedom undermining itself

It has been a (long) while since I posted here in the cosmos forum (perhaps even from before it was a separate forum with separate rules). Let say from the time Antipoint status was made in here and Korpdeath was an active user, so posting here means there's realy something that was repressed... :)

Today I read the human rights watch report about al-Qaeda suspects
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/us1004/

"At least 11 al-Qaeda suspects have “disappeared” in U.S. custody. U.S. officials are holding the detainees in undisclosed locations, where some have reportedly been tortured. International treaties ratified by the United States prohibit incommunicado detention of persons in secret locations."

I'm not capable to understand how people still can support a government that permits such things. It seems that they lack every respect to a) human rights, b) international law and c) ethics. And that's not the main problem in my eyes. By doing things that are mostly done by the so called 'outlaw states', respectfull countries are lowering themselfs to the standards of outlaw states. Where's the common decency? And decency read as 'no humiliation'.

Quote:

---

"At least 11 al-Qaeda suspects have “disappeared” in U.S. custody. U.S. officials are holding the detainees in undisclosed locations, where some have reportedly been tortured.

---

If that is true, i can feel only sorry by the americans. U.S. citizens arent following the pattern and they just think "ahn, let they be tortured, they deserve, they arent even U.S. citizens".

What is the pattern? if allow a government to torture a terrorist or whatever for a "good reason", next step will be:

torture its own citizens for good reason. Lets say, you (an U.S. citizen) is calmly walking on a street (into USA) and suddenly cops get you to jail, torture you because of accusation of rape, terrorism or something like. You have no rights, you cant call anyone until you confess... and torture is the way to get it..

sounds bad? just leave your government "taste" the power and you will see. We had here that experience, and we had stayed on Hell for 20 years....

One could also say that when you, as a terrorist, set aside human decency and chose to attack the weak rather than the strong you also set aside your right to human decency and to have your weaknesses attacked rather than your strengths......

I don't see that big of a problem..... Go take a squint at a few beheading videos and then tell me that a little bit of _appropriate_ interrogational techniques might not be worth the results...

As Mr. Putin said, (paraphrased), "we were weak and the weak lose".....

Keep being weak folks..... You will lose..... The way to win is to mirror the enemy not to try to maintain a moral superiority... Why? Simple.... the enemy doesn't abide nor respect your morals....

To continue on TS's vein:

Todays enemy, sees 'Decency' 'Tolerance' ' Respect' in a catch all basket [ WEAK ]

You HAVE to accept that this fight / war will ONLY be won by fighting them on their terms.

To those that say that this means we are worse than our enemies, or that the ends NEVER justify the means, you had better start to learn the Koran NOW.
For make NO mistake; the avowed intention of this enemy is your destruction.

By any means, fair or foul.

Victor...........

Please get yourself a life! do you believe all the crap published by the media and scumbag propagandists?............allow me to enlighten you:)

The CIA has a budget that is classified, but would make the IRS collectively wet their pants. If they make someone "dissappear" then they just vanished;)

The CIA cannot operate within the USA or its territories, that is the ambit of the FBI, Secret Service, BNDD, BATF, IRS, G2, N2, A2, and so on............they are very, very jealous organisations.

This is pure speculative CRAP............................the nasty little scumbags have appropriated the terrorist funds they controlled and have buggered off..........just like certain IRA and UVF individuals? Or, they have "fessed up" on their compatriots and have new identities, and US government funding. Let's face it, for all their money the CIA haven't caught Bin Laden, have they?

You may have read the book "The ragged trousered philanthropist"............well what would you rather be? a rag-head dickhead, or a millionaire playboy?

On the other hand, if I were chief publicity officer for a terrorist organisation, I would like the CIA conspiracy theory more than the more logical one that my "heroes" sold out.

On the other hand, if this "story" is true we have more to worry about than a few al-Qaeda suspects ..................the most powerful nation on Earth is becoming a fascist dictatorship? :eek:

MY Thoughts!

I'm sorry to say this, nihil, but did you actually read the report?

The report is about overseas operations... I have no idea where your "The CIA cannot operate within the USA or its territories" comes from (unless Iraq is now American territory? Much like Cheney's "The Iraqi's have to be counted into the coalition casualty figures, too"?) - The CIA indeed is in Iraq (and that's what the report is about), I hope you'll agree with that.

The "dissapearance" of prisoners is based on, amongst others, government statements:

- In June 2004, U.S Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld admitted that, acting upon a request by George Tenet, then-director of the CIA, he ordered an Iraqi national held in Camp Cropper, a high security detention center in Iraq, to be kept off the prison’s rolls and not presented to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

He only admitted it after the Red Cross found out about him... "Oops... yeah... we must've forgotten to report that one." (reporting prisoners to the IRC is required under Geneva Conventions, btw). In this case, it was the CIA who had asked the military to not give the man a prison number, and to not report him.

I'd be more than happy to find you the official Rumsfeld statement if you want... "pure and speculative crap"? Coming out of Rumsfeld's mouth, then...

It's that official Rumsfeld statement that had to make Bush stand up for him: "I'm never disappointed in my secretary of defence. He's doing a fabulous job and America's lucky to have him in the position he's in."

Only the weak show mercy for they desire mercy to be applied to them also.

The powerful do not have to abide by anybody's rules, for they have the power.

But that doesn't mean some things aren't unfair.

And it definitely doesn't mean that things do not change.

If there is one thing history teaches us about empires is that they fall from within, because of the increasing greed associated with the people at the top. I see no obvious reason for which the US shall not meet this same fate to some degree. Of course society moves forward so what kind of a fall it is, it's debatable.

Negative,

Quote:

---

I'm sorry to say this, nihil, but did you actually read the report?

---

Yes I did. I do not believe it is an unbiased account, in any shape or form.

Quote:

---

reporting prisoners to the IRC is required under Geneva Conventions, btw

---

Not if the "prisoner requests otherwise", you see then he is technically NOT a "prisoner"

Like I said: " and have new identities, and US government funding."

Please be realistic, with the right pharmaceuticals and an oxy-acetylene blowtorch, I could get all the information I wanted within 5 days................then just "sanitise"

Quote:

---

In June 2004, U.S Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld admitted that, acting upon a request by George Tenet, then-director of the CIA, he ordered an Iraqi national held in Camp Cropper, a high security detention center in Iraq, to be kept off the prison’s rolls and not presented to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

---

Hmmmm..............

George: "Hi Don we have this lowlife and we want to fry his balls"
Donald: " Sure George we just don't report him to the Red Cross until he is dead.....only a few hours... huh?"

OR:

George: "Hi Don we have this lowlife who will sell his grandmother for two goats, three camels and five million dollars"
Donald: "Sure George, we'd better keep him under wraps then, or he will be compromised, and useless to us"

Maybe I am just cynical?


All I can say that if the people who run the USA are that stupid there really is no point in wasting good drinking time and going to vote?................and we might as well belly up because we have surely lost.

It is NOT a pretty war, but are any of them?

Cheers

PS..............I think that the difference between us is that you suspect that the forces of darkness are capable of anything...............I am rather older and KNOW that they are :D

Lawyers are turds in suits, please remember that ;)

Quote:

---

Lawyers are turds in suits, please remember that

---

Pish, Biggest piece of CRAP I have ever heard! (Pun OBVIOUSLY intended)
Lawyers are those real, true, complete *******s who satan ended up kicking out of hell because they were too evil and greedy. Lawyers were CREATED so that we would have someone other than the devil to blame things on.

eh hem... *off topic VK sorry.* Tell that to your lawyer, whenever you need help. The underlying problem with bias towards attorneys is the bandwagon fallacy. at one point in time, some one got ****ed over by a lawyer, told their friends. Everyone that person knew started to hate lawyers, etc..

EVERY stereotype is similar to this. Stereotyping lawyers is comparable to hating people because of skin color or sexual orientation. Except, this is definitley a choice. Don't hate, hesitate, then relate your problem to a specific lawyer, and spew in their direction. These "lawyer" stereotypes piss me off as much as the "blonde" stereotypes. I have a brother in law and a sister who are attorneys, and they are cool. so chill, all you lawyer haters.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by er0k
I have a brother in law and a sister who are attorneys

---

They got Married so they could continue ****ing each other? They **** everybody else why not? Heh. As for "What if you were walking down the street and the Police...."

Already has happened too me, My Best friend, and about 12 other friends of mine.

Having a gun drawn on you because they don't like you.... And people wonder why I hate Authority. It's not a Punk Cliche, it's having **** like that happen too me.

Some friends of mine got pulled over one day by the cops, and as the cop was walking up, my friend reached over and turned off the stereo figuring the cop wasn't in to the band Slayer. Now that was nice of him, but he ****ed himself doing it. The cop said he didn't turn the stereo off, instead he said "You hid something".

They searched the whole thing, and some Cocain that wasn't there before Magically appeared.

My best friend got held with a gun to his head, as a cop made threats too him.

I've been pulled over for absolutely no reason. Wasn't speeding, wasn't driving stupidly, nothing, but I got pulled over and given a ticket. The cop said I was doing 92 Miles an hour... Hi, my name is Allen, and I WOULD HAVE HIT THE PEOPLE IN FRONT OF ME IF I WAS GOING THAT FAST YOU RED NECK BADGED ****.

Where will it stop?

I got caught being a teenager and charged with possesion of a Mohawk and Punk Rock albums in my car.

Quote:

---

I got caught being a teenager and charged with possesion of a Mohawk and Punk Rock albums in my car.

---

Look at it this way. What if you were a nine-to-five suit and you got pulled
over by a cop wearing a mohawk?
:cool:

"whitness protection"

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
One could also say that when you, as a terrorist, set aside human decency and chose to attack the weak rather than the strong you also set aside your right to human decency and to have your weaknesses attacked rather than your strengths......

I don't see that big of a problem..... Go take a squint at a few beheading videos and then tell me that a little bit of _appropriate_ interrogational techniques might not be worth the results...

As Mr. Putin said, (paraphrased), "we were weak and the weak lose".....

Keep being weak folks..... You will lose..... The way to win is to mirror the enemy not to try to maintain a moral superiority... Why? Simple.... the enemy doesn't abide nor respect your morals....

---

You consider respect or morals as weak, while those are the main reason why someone, or a nation can be so strong. Want a few individual examples? Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King.
So, in that context I completly agree with you, "the weak lose". When you don't have the courage to stand up for your opinion in a decent manner then this proves your weakness, it's only cause you can't get what you want the appropriate way that you have to cross certain lines. So the real weak are the terrorists and in the long run they will lose, cause like you said the weak lose...

You can never garantee safety against the terrorism of today by protection, the only way is a positive approach. There are million ways to do serious harm to many people. So why search the conflict with those completly a-moral lunatics?

But yes, you have a point, for instance in the second world war the allies did bomb complete German cities and used nuclear weapons against civil targets in Japan. But the allies did not murder 8 million people only because of their race. It's that small line that makes the difference. It's that small difference that makes you strong. Ask yourself, why were the allies the good guys and the nazi's the bad ones?

Quote:

---

All I can say that if the people who run the USA are that stupid there really is no point in wasting good drinking time and going to vote?................and we might as well belly up because we have surely lost.

---

Quote:

---

Originaly posted by hypronix:
If there is one thing history teaches us about empires is that they fall from within, because of the increasing greed associated with the people at the top. I see no obvious reason for which the US shall not meet this same fate to some degree. Of course society moves forward so what kind of a fall it is, it's debatable.

---

Those two quotes wonderful mix together... you can also look at it in an economical way. A nation that need to constantly prove their superiority and defend themselfs needs to invest in militar power, making less money available for the civil industry, making less to defend, so their actual (economical) power declines. A perfect example is the former USSR, they have nuclear weapons, submarines, ... but they are poor as hell... and they can't even win a war in their own nation.

Quote:

---

It is NOT a pretty war, but are any of them?

---

yep, none are

Gore hits the main idea

Quote:

---

Where will it stop?

---

Quote:

---

But the allies did not murder 8 million people only because of their race.

---

Ahh.... I see.... We should only start getting "pissy" when they kill a million or so because of our religion...... Yeah.. that makes sense to me.....

Look at it this way..... Let's say Victor doesn't like me and let's also say I can sidle up to Victor and kick his ass any day I please... I don't, but I know I can and so does Victor. Then I notice that Victor is going to the gym every day. Victor is getting bigger and more powerful. I have two choices of action:

1. I can sidle over to Victor and give him such a kicking that I cripple him for life meaning he can spend all the time he likes in the gym and it won't matter - he'll never be able to threaten me.

2. I can wait till Victor gets big enough to challenge me, and maybe even win, and wait for him to come for me. In this situation we are both going to sustain damage, possibly crippling damage. One of us will win but the cost all around will be greater and I stand to lose simply because Victor doesn't like me and I gave him the chance to become powerful enough to place myself at risk.

It's naive to believe that, however moral you may feel it is, that the second option is a better one. Before you all start telling me that it would all be alright if I just talked to good old Victor and ironed it all out remember that there are two possibilities there too:-

1. He pretends to listen and appear nice while be builds his strength knowing all along that he's coming for me eventually.

2. He tells me to foxx off.

Even if you say there is a 3. how would you ever know that your 3. isn't my 1.? Can you afford to take the risk? Of course not....

As long as the terrorosts do things that we find repugnant it is us who are being weak. We need to be as repugnant as they are.....

This reminds me of an essay I had to do in school. The title we were given was "In war one must let expediency dictate. Discuss." It revolved around Shakespeare's Henry V who ordered the French prisoners killed after the battle of Agincourt, (killing prisoners was frowned upon if for no other reasons than it was unchivilrous and some prisoners were worth money, (ransom)). He ordered them killed because, in their frustration at not being able to beat the smaller British contingent, the French knights sacked the baggage, (the camp followers - women and children), which is equally frowned upon. He dealt with the French at the level they would stoop to and by doing so proved his ability to be strong and do things that possibly shouldn't be done but may be required to in order to win. France surrendered shortly after Agincourt.

I believe we need to let expediency dictate regardless of whether we believe it to be "beneath" us. There are times when the end _does_ justify the means..... it's your children we are protecting in the final analysis.

Tiger Shark, our points are closer to eacht other than it seems.

I agree with you that it's completly logical to go for option 1.

Perhaps you forgot something in your option 1)

Quote:

---

1. I can sidle over to Victor and give him such a kicking that I cripple him for life meaning he can spend all the time he likes in the gym and it won't matter - he'll never be able to threaten me.

---

I'm not so sure 'he'll never be able to threaten me' is possible, as said above, the terrorists are such a-moral rational lunatics that it's perhaps not rational to believe that you can get them into the state of not threatening anymore?

the 3. is offcourse to search why in your example Victor does not likes you, if you can figure that out all is solved. In your example, probably, everything is going to be ironed out after a talk andsome goodwill from both sides.

In the bigger case we started with, I see where you are pointing at: two completly incompatible world views. They will always come after the other minded...
Here in Europe we have the same sort of debate in another context, should we allow certain clothing (like the burka) and behavior? I think not.

I think the only way to solve the conflict is an 'internal change' by those that do not like the otherone. It has to come from their side. Those who spread hate need to be taken out.

Quote:

---

It has to come from their side. Those who spread hate need to be taken out.

---

Absolutely..... With extreme prejudice..... ;)

Quote:

---

I've been pulled over for absolutely no reason. Wasn't speeding, wasn't driving stupidly, nothing, but I got pulled over and given a ticket. The cop said I was doing 92 Miles an hour... Hi, my name is Allen, and I WOULD HAVE HIT THE PEOPLE IN FRONT OF ME IF I WAS GOING THAT FAST YOU RED NECK BADGED ****.

---

What kinda screwed up town do you live in gore? Let me tell you, as one who has lived in a cop family all his life, cops like you are talking about are the laughing stock of the greater majority of truly heroic police officers out there. Those dimwits are mockeries to their own force, and find themselves alienated and disowned by the rest of the police world very quickly. Any "redneck" badge-wearer like you're talking about would be scorned out of the room by a real cop, so at least take that to heart.

Plus I know cops who appreciate punk music...

Quote:

---

3. is offcourse to search why in your example Victor does not likes you, if you can figure that out all is solved. In your example, probably, everything is going to be ironed out after a talk andsome goodwill from both sides.

---

Unless the reason is because you're not like Victor, and Victor will only like you if you become just like him. Well, so much for ironing out. Now what?

Politics and war should never reside in the same boat.

Quote:

---

Politics and war should never reside in the same boat.

---

Unfortunately our "boat" is called "Earth"........

Yes, true, it's very unrealistic, utopian concept to say the lest...but still should be so, IMO.

Pakistan: Chinese Hostage Killed in Rescue Mission

http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?o...kistani%20Raid

A rebel tribal commander, Abdullah Mehsud, allegedly ordered the kidnapping. The suspected al-Qaida militant is a former inmate of the U.S military prison at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. He was released in March after more than two years of detention in the U.S-controlled facility.

http://www.etaiwannews.com/Asia/2004...1097805534.htm

dont you think it might have been better if he dissapeared instead of being released.

enemy combatant = POW = for the doration

but bleeding hearts set him free

The bleeding hearts in their ivory towers will have us all killed. They are the lilly livered cowards that spent their whole lives avoiding the schoolyard bully or appeasing him by giving him their lunch money. It works fine with the schoolyard bully who doesn't really want to get into trouble anyway and the bleeding hearts think that since it worked before it will work again.....

Unfortunately, the bleeding hearts are intellectually incapable of understanding the difference between the schoolyard bully and a terrorist who gleefully cuts the head off live countrymen of theirs. Their biggest fault is that they are, intellectually, unable to adapt. They fix themselves in their lilly livered ideals and refuse to believe there might be a more appropriate course of action.... Everything revolves around the avoidance of violence despite the signs that eventually violence will be the only course of action left. In the meantime they tie the hands of those that would act appropriately with their whining and indignant proprietary. They fail to understand that while the Geneva and Hague Conventions, (How many of you liberals know what the Hague Conventions, (yes, Plural), address?), are all very well between signatories they don't mean squat to people who have no intention to abide by them. Tying your fighting men's hands behind their back with irrelevant "rules" in order to appease your own sense of decency, (read: Inability to face the realities of life), is far from your liberal cry of "I support the troops". You don't.... You are killing them.... and you will end up killing civilains like yourself in the US, UK and European mainland.

Old cliches that are actually true:-

1. If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem: Leave those who would do the work you don't have the intestinal fortitude to do to do their job without your interference. You harm them every time you whine.

2. Peace through superior firepower: The USA has never fought a war for Imperial reasons. There is no sensible reason to believe they are doing so now or will do in the future. Thus, what is being done is for a different reason. It stems from the fact that there is a problem out there and right now the USA/UK are powerful enough to face it head on before it becomes too powerful. Failure to do so is tantamount to suicide.

3. Speak softly but carry a big stick: The USA/UK don't go around throwing their weight about under normal circumstances. The amount of diplomacy that goes on is incredible. But diplomacy sometimes doesn't work.... Remember Neville Chamberlain..... That's what that big stick is for.... You people are whittling away at the stick so soon it will be nothing more than a matchstick... which is useless!

Liberals.... Get out of the way.... Before you kill more soldiers, then me and finally.... yourselves..... :rolleyes:

Heh, me and tiger Shark, have had some very good verbal battles from here. I consider his a buddy although I think he's wrong, or, at the very least, not right about a few things.

I'm not a Liberal, I'm not a Democrat (Same thing isn't it?) And I'm not a Republican. I'm a Libertarian, and I don't hide from some school yard bully. I'm 6'1 270 pounds, and I can Probably bench all of you. I'm not afraid of putting someone in the Hospital, but that WILL be the last step.

I'd much rather make someone into a friend, which I've done with a lot of people. then again you just can't tell some people and they do need an ass kicking. Does this make me a bleeding heart liberal? No, it makes me a human willing to defend myself and the things I believe in. I don't believe in War, so I won't defend it. I don't like Authority, I won't defend that either.

I've put more than 5 people in the Hopital with everything from broken bones to fractured ribs, does this make me any better? No. I defended myself and what I believed in, and after talking didn't work, well, a couple punches and kicks did.

War isn't punches and kicks though. The people I put in the hospital lived, War takes no prisoners, you die, and you can seriously **** things up. Why anyone invented Nukes is beyond me.

Maybe GOVTs around the World will finally stop when we have enough to destroy the entire World a few extra times.


Heh, JELLO BIAFRA FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gore i think your missing the point in whats happening today. its not simply a mis-understanding between the west and extreme fundamentalist islam. they want to return the world to a bronze age mentality. where woman have less than zero rights, music and tv are a sin and homosexuality carries the death penality as does adultry and many other western hobbies. to them the west is the satan because it offers freedom and choice. this is something they cannot have. much the way soviet communism could not exist with the "corrupting" influence of capitolism around them. for them its a world ruled by clerics and a life devoted to allah<their version of>....or nothing. there is no making friends with them short of surrender. there is no negotiating with them for they believe its just to lie to the non-believer to achieve their goals and they will stop at nothing. including nukes, to achive it.