Could my ISP be upto something...

Recently, I have began to questions the privacy practices of the ISP I use for my home setup.
The past 2 weeks I have noticed some very strange behavior related to my internet account.
But first a little background...The company I work for requires me to do monthly remote security audits on clients systems, things like vulnerability scanning, IDS evasion, ...ect to make sure everything is working as its supposed to. Particullary in the case of IDS evasions it's very important for me to hide my IP, otherwise the admins on those networks will know when I am auditing them, and the whole process of a secret audit is botched. I use proxy's and address spoofing a lot for these things. I just started an account with this ISP about a month ago, and for the first 2 weeks had no problem forging packets. Then about two weeks ago they begain using egress filtering, which totally stopped my ability to spoof from their network (Although I still can using VPN to another one). At about the same time this happened I began to notice that my anonymous proxy connections where no longer anonymous either! After testing various anonymous proxy's from all over the world (I tried about 50...) I found that the end point still pointed back to my ISP. Although this IP was not my IP, it still pointed back to an address within my ISP's address space. So, I dug a little deeper. I trace routed the path thru my internet connection and found my packets were going thru an additional machine that wasn't there two weeks ago. I decided to ping that address and to my surprise found that my firewall was blocking inbound ICMP requests to my machine in response to my ping (It pointed right back at me!). I checked my IP again to make sure that the ISP hadnt reassigned it to this address. They hadn't, it's the same as it's always been. So I pinged my IP address that winipcfg reports...Nothing happened, no inbound ICMP at all. Anything sent to my ipconfig address never arrives, only packets sent to this virtual address make it to my machine. I know that my ISP has me using a different router/gatway configuration then everyone else on their network.
As far as the proxy thing, this is really strange...Theres really no way to account for an annomous proxy not being anonymous just for my IP is there? Am I correct? The only thing I can think of is that my ISP is stripping the proxy TCP/IP wrapper of my packets, then requesting the data themselves, then sending it to my machine. I'm not really sure just what to do or think just yet. Needless to say I instantly SSL'ed EVERYTHING, stopped using my ISP's DNS, and totally hardened my firewall against my own ISP! So now I bet there really wondering whats up, they have no idea what data or with whom my system is dealing with... For the time being I just want to investigate more into exactly what my ISP is doing with my packets and how they're routing them. I would like to see my packets as they arrive at an anonymous proxy (So if anyone has anon proxy with packet logger that I could send a couple requests too, let me now). Any suggestions on what might be happening? Personally, I think there sensors picked up on some of the non-standard/spoofed traffic I was sending, and they then classified me as a potential hacker, and stuck me on a different segment then everone else where they could monitor my connections and prevent me from interacting with the internal network. Wouldnt this be discrimination? As far as the proxy thing, if there doing what it looks like to me, they are totally invading my privacy. Just for my own satisfaction I wrote a spider that scoured the net looking for email addresses of my ISP's customers and now I have a list of about 4000, If things get really bad I plan on mass mailing everyone and telling them whats going on. I plan on bring this up in person with my ISP when I know exactly whats going on...Any comments?

Read your ISP's AUP (Acceptable Use Policy). Your activities may be against their policy.

Massmailing everyone at your ISP will definitely get you kicked off the net.

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Just for my own satisfaction I wrote a spider that scoured the net looking for email addresses of my ISP's customers and now I have a list of about 4000, If things get really bad I plan on mass mailing everyone and telling them whats going on. I plan on bring this up in person with my ISP when I know exactly whats going on...Any comments?

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Yeah, smart move especially when you depend on them for internet. Why don't you just call them on their hotline/ tech support and demand to talk to a higher up? Or even better if they are located close to you go and talk to them. Lastly, why didn't you tell your ISP of your situation? If its legit as you say they shouldn't have a problem with it especially with papers from your work? ????

Adding to what SirDice said: What does your AUP tell you?

Discrimination? Probably but so what.

You admit to using the services in a manner that would cause any provider to have pause and alarm. I can't blame them for monitoring your activity, gathering info and at the same time limiting what garbage you can pull in the process. If that is in fact what is happening.

I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like the service, don't use it!!!!!!!

SGS

with the echelon technology in place on most ISP's and you thinking you have rights and don't need to tell anyone why your doing what your doing... i wouldn't plan on flying anywhere if i were you.

Neptune0z,
I'm going to have to applaud your ISP for taking a very pro-active approach in dealing with internet threats. While users have a certain degree of responsibility in securing their pc's, I also think ISP's should bear some of the burden...and yours is doing exactly that. Some ISP's are now suspending accounts if an infected machine (within their domain) is causing problems, even if the user has no idea it's infected. They make users clean their systems and then reinstate their account privilages. (again, I applaud these ISP's). Think of your situation another way Neptune. Imagine someone remotely auditing your system, without your consent, for malicious purposes. Would you want your ISP to stop it? or would that be discrimination? Like everyone in this thread has been stating, your ISP has no idea what your intentions are and why you're spoofing IP's and performing remote attacks through proxies. For all practical purposes, you might as well be a cracker (in your ISP's eyes) because they don't know you have consent from the admins of the network(s) you're auditing.

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The past 2 weeks I have noticed some very strange behavior related to my internet account

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yeah, your ISP thinks your're a cracker (shocker!) and is dealing with you accordingly.
What in the hell made you think that your ISP was clairvoyant enough to realize you were simply running legit scans? how much common sense would it have taken to think "hmm, maybe I should let my ISP know what I'm doing just in case they see what's normally considered malicious activity flowing through their network". Considering it's what you do for a living (and I'm assuming you think paychecks are a good thing) do you really want to inform your company that you can longer do remote audits because you never informed your ISP of your activity and your account is now blocked and/or suspended?

It's called "common sense" Neptune, use it.

"Massmailing everyone at your ISP will definitely get you kicked off the net. " -- Sir Dice

There's always another ISP out there to use though. I pay for my service and as a customer there's various things I expect from them as a business. An attempt to tag me so that my
surfing habits are not anonymous is totally unacceptable and I would gladly lose my account to let others know.

"with the echelon technology in place on most ISP's and you thinking you have rights and don't need to tell anyone why your doing what your doing... i wouldn't plan on flying anywhere if i were you." --tedob1

Echelon and its supporting policies "Patriot act, CPA, ...ect" are a complete violation of our rights. I encourage everyone to read more about these things. www.eff.org
As far as the flying thing, for the past 6 years everytime I fly I get searched at every terminal, every transfer, every check point. Knowledge is power...


The internet was founded on anonimity. Any attempt to violate this, needs to be resisted at all costs. Like anything in this world if we dont fight for our rights we will lose them, I gaurentee we will lose them. I'm not surprised to find out my ISP would be monitoring me because of my internet activities, any decent admin would see this as a security threat. I appriciate everyones comments.

Okay a few questions. Mainly because your attitude makes me feel like something just isnt right. Okay so the company you work for makes you use your own persoanl resources to do your job? You dont have an internet connection at the office that you could use? You would have a lot more luck explaining this to your ISP if it was coming from an office building and not your house.

Yes you are paying for a service but why do you need to be annonymous with your ISP. Do you honestly think they are going to go to the companies you "audit" and say hey this subscriber is scanning you? Explain to them what your job requiers then be prepared to back it up with some proof. Yea you have rights we all do. One of the biggest rights that alot of people forget is the right of a business to refuse service of anykind to any customer for any reason. And yes companies do have that legal right. No thats not toi say your ISP can say " we're not going to provide you with service because you are a black gay jewish person" but they have the right to prevent you from using their service in a harmfull manner. To the tech's over there thats exactly what it loooks like. Grow up and be responsable for what you are doing. Or start your own ISP and let all your local skiddies run rampant

EDIT: and how broadband providers are in your area? anonymous scvanning from dial up cna be a real bitch. I know of two broadband ISP's in my area. the cable isp and the DSL company

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Originally posted here by Neptune0z
"Massmailing everyone at your ISP will definitely get you kicked off the net. " -- Sir Dice

The internet was founded on anonimity. Any attempt to violate this, needs to be resisted at all costs. Like anything in this world if we dont fight for our rights we will lose them, I gaurentee we will lose them. I'm not surprised to find out my ISP would be monitoring me because of my internet activities, any decent admin would see this as a security threat. I appriciate everyones comments.

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Although the notion of Internet access being a "right" could be well debated, let's pretend your
premise is correct. With "rights" comes responsibility. Part of yours would be to make arrangements with your ISP ahead of time. To outline your activities ahead of time through a proactive relationship with your ISP. In the least, attempt to use well documented communication to your ISP letting them know what to expect and when.

I have done this in the past for people in your situation.
You should expect to have a member of the org requesting to be audited ready to confirm your situation to your ISP and be willing to provide documentation to the matter.

If as you say "knowledge is power", practice what your preach and provide your ISP with knowledge of you, your practice, and your intent.

I started this thread with the idea that people would post ideas / suggestions about what my isp is doing with regards the proxy thing...Instead it turned into a 'lets dog-on on neptune for mismanagment of his IP' thread...Not what I'm interested in...I may be in the wrong...But thats irrelevant...Please only post if you have suggestions for what my ISP may be doing to make my sessions thru anonymous proxies not anonymous...

"Methinks the byatch protests too loudly?"

I think that the ISP is perfectly OK

This self-proclaimed "security guru" abuses the system...............some of the people obviously have competent IT Departments, who have reported the abuse............ISP is now on its case is it not?

985 Pennysylvania Avenue is the next step

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There's always another ISP out there to use though. I pay for my service and as a customer there's various things I expect from them as a business. An attempt to tag me so that my

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You sanctimonious little craphead.................you are doing this for money..............so you say :rolleyes: yes but how?................I do not like social engineering...........are you "really" employed by a truly legitimate organisation.............now your organisation does not hide..............so just get them to e-mail me and I will run them past my old friends in the IRS. (e-mail is part of the site functions). They can arrange things, be sure.........

"I wrote a spider"...................case proven! you sad little b*****d, you cannot accept that you are NOT "uber 1337" you are just a bloody mule :D

If I am proven wrong, I will gladly apologise...............somehow I doubt that will be required
:cool:

You do not contribute to the site so why should we care?

My £2.00

EDIT: I did not see this one:

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I started this thread with the idea that people would post ideas / suggestions about what my isp is doing with regards the proxy thing...Instead it turned into a 'lets dog-on on neptune for mismanagment of his IP' thread...Not what I'm interested in...I may be in the wrong...But thats irrelevant...Please only post if you have suggestions for what my ISP may be doing to make my sessions thru anonymous proxies not anonymous...

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I am overawed by the personal and intellectual humility of this gentleman, as I am sure that you all are......

I rest my case

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Originally posted here by Neptune0z
I started this thread with the idea that people would post ideas / suggestions about what my isp is doing with regards the proxy thing...Instead it turned into a 'lets dog-on on neptune for mismanagment of his IP' thread...Not what I'm interested in...I may be in the wrong...But thats irrelevant...Please only post if you have suggestions for what my ISP may be doing to make my sessions thru anonymous proxies not anonymous...

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Don't forget it was you that added more to your original post about mass emailing and having privacy issues. My ESP is broken and didn't have a way to know you wanted to limit the discussion to technical issues only.

You forgot to tell us 1st what process you use to determine that proxy requests are not working properly for you. Tell us more about your configuration. Which ISP do you use? Can you determine if your ISP is or isn't adding it's own caching or proxy appliance which may be mangling your packets?
Did you try to sign up with a 2nd account to see if it's account specific? How about dialing from a second or third location using several accounts. Same problem?

It seams like every time I come back to ol' AO someone is pulling this type of scam.

First off Neptune0z seeing that you have posted your complaints on this website first and not with your ISP shows that you in fact Do NOT work for any auditing company.

Second I personally know two gentlemen who do auditing for banks. Both have equipment provided by the bank, and use connections paid for by the bank.

An audit does not have to be done from a remote connection, in fact most places will test inside out, making sure their internal network is the safest.

Lastly I would suggest that if you are having problems with your ISP, that instead of wasting these peoples time you make a simple phone call to either your employer and explain your issue so they can get you a un-restricted connection. Or you phone your ISP and speak with someone who can actually DO something for you.

The answers you are looking for have been givin. I think your looking more for us to follow your views and agree that what you are doing is right. Your ISP acted as any ISP should. If I seen you on my network/ISP doing anything similar I would have simply black listed you.

I would not push the issue futher if you are not in fact employed by some company to do what you say. ISP's have logs of EVERYTHING, and many have no issue with providing them to a lawyer.

Take everyones advice and leave the board untill you have something more constructive to add.

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Originally posted here by Neptune0z
I started this thread with the idea that people would post ideas / suggestions about what my isp is doing with regards the proxy thing...Instead it turned into a 'lets dog-on on neptune for mismanagment of his IP' thread...Not what I'm interested in...I may be in the wrong...But thats irrelevant...Please only post if you have suggestions for what my ISP may be doing to make my sessions thru anonymous proxies not anonymous...

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sorry im not complying with your request for info and im really not dogging on you, but ask your self why your service has not been suspended. ISP's are in it for the money as everyone with a biz is. you break the rules, they kick you off. anything else cuts into profit. saying the patriot act is unfair is like saying death is unfair. the fact is they both exist...period. im not saying this is right, im only saying that it is.

if what your reporting here is accurate (which i believe it is) then you can bet your sweet ass its not your isp doing it. and if you find out how to get around this "proxy thing" it wont change anything. tell you isp what your doing, war drive, or hook a laptop up to an abandoned cross-over panel with a phony ppp account but as it is now there is nothing anonymous about anything your doing.


spazzmatrix i know personally of a consulting firm (very well established in the NY, nj area) that does not use "provided accounts" and tests the external interface from the outside. i dont know of any way to get a reliable report otherwise.

"There's always another ISP out there to use though. I pay for my service and as a customer there's various things I expect from them as a business."

Ok, but they have the right to expect a few things from you as well, the core of which is in the AUP, which you seem to feel is only an option. It ain't. You entered into a business relationship with your ISP, a relationship that you both entered into freely and can both exit freely. A relationship with rules which you broke first. Some fairly kind folks here have suggested ways for you to deal with this problem - getting a hold of your ISP to explain the situation, using a work-provided ISP - but these are only workarounds for a problem you created yourself.


"I may be in the wrong...But thats irrelevant"

No, it's not. You have asked for help and if you are wrong it is certainly not our fault if we point that out. After all you asked for the help!

"Please only post if you have suggestions for what my ISP may be doing to make my sessions thru anonymous proxies not anonymous"

Before anyone can deal effectively with the technical issues you are raising you need to deal with the ethical issues about your actions that your question raises.

"The internet was founded on anonimity. "

No, it was not. It was founded to allow government and research universities to communicate on cold war research. It was also designed to withstand atomic warfare and so included protocols to allow a message to be divided into small pieces that could, each, take a unique path to the destination in case of damage to the infrastructure. This design spec eventually led to ways to anonymize communications, but anonimity was not an original design spec of the internet - quite the opposite. The internet was designed to be a secure communications layer that included only known and trusted communicators.

Todd

Somehow I think that you just downloaded something like Retina or SSS and are screwing around with them....you're using a proxy because you think somehow its gonna trace back to you...You did too many audits in your network so your ISP is getting suspicious and now you're blaming them?

Thats the way I see it...

Good Night.

BTW what Auditing firm do u work for? You dont have to tell me, but I would like to know if that firm allows employees to scan others from their own house...what are their policies...that is if you really work for an auditing firm. Other than that...this whole thread smells like rotten fish...

Id would have to agree with cybr1d....

When you got really defensive about us not answering your question;

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I started this thread with the idea that people would post ideas / suggestions about what my isp is doing with regards the proxy thing...Instead it turned into a 'lets dog-on on neptune for mismanagment of his IP' thread...Not what I'm interested in...I may be in the wrong...But thats irrelevant...Please only post if you have suggestions for what my ISP may be doing to make my sessions thru anonymous proxies not anonymous...

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that set off my defenses and it just seemed to me you really are upto malicious purposes and that you were lying to us. i mean, we are taking exactly the same stace as your ISP, so maybe you really are the one at fault here... sorry but it just looks that way.

things would be alot easier as weve all said if you just fess up to your ISP and get it cleared.... of course you cant do that if what youve been saying is a load of BS...


CTO

Most ISPs will not monitor and redirect your traffic unless they are ordered to by law enforcement for the collection of evidence. If you break their AUP, they disconnect service. You need to contact them and go over your agreement with them. They will not be able to tell you if law enforcement is monitoring you. Being on the up and up is the best and if this is your profession, they may want to have you subcribe to a business level account and have backup from your company. Of course they could choose to discontinue your service. Good luck.

you know... im not gonna rag on you but there are all kinds of proxys... have you verified that the proxies your using are buisness class aka elite proxies???? hmmm... probly not because that is how i have seen them classified when they do not leak the isp info, sort of like what your describing... btw the buisness class proxies usually still store your info in a log that can be traced :)
ISP's that handle large amounts of network traffic have to be aware of whats happing on their network... if you piss them off by doing something that violates your aup, your gonna know, your service will stop working entirely... you violate some laws on the other hand your service wont stop, but it wont just be your isp watching your traffic... again :)

Ya I verified that the proxies were anonymous by chaining them to a server that I had a sniffer running on, so I could monitor the requests sent thru the proxy's. All IP header info was either stripped or completely replaced by garbage in all the one's I tested, so I know their legit 'good 'ol proxies. Really in my mind, this leaves only one possibility...The referer fields and proxy wrappers are being stripped from my requests before they leave my ISP. The data is then retrieved directly from one of my ISP's gateways. I know this because I've used site's like www.whatismyip.com as end points for the proxy requests, and they point right back to my ISP. Now that I have all the logs and data proving what I know, it's time to go to my ISP. What leads me to believe it's my ISP and not some 'big brother' system tied into their network is the fact I know the man is smarter then that...They get the data directly from the backbones of the 'net. The stuff that ISP's don't even have real access to. The reasoning behind making my anon. proxy connections not anonomous is the fact that they think I am hacker, and they want to make sure I'm not using the proxy's to jump back into their network to do malicious things. I had my work and some of the companies I audit fax my ISP this morning with my info and work requests. I'm gonna to talk to someone about this later today, and will post about it on this thread. I have gotten a lot of 's*i* about this thread from people, and honestly I could care less...I posted it because I thought some of you might find it interesting and not for anything else. I asked for advice and methologies on what might be going on, Instead for the most part I got the third-degree from people. Read my posts, I have never downed on anybody...nihil thought it was a good idea to take like 40 of my antipoints, for what reason I do not know. I could care less about antipoints (Take 'em all nihil) or making friends, I'm here to learn. Oh, well I solved the problem on my own, and I will post one more time in this thread and wont be responding to msgs about this subject anymore. To the people who were decent thank you...To the people who were not, thank you...I know whats what and who's who now...Later...

You need to drop your little supreme being attitude. Nihil isnt the only one who took your ap's. I'd take more if system would let. You arrogant little ****. just because you ask a question doesnt entitle you to an automatic answer. The first thing we are going to do is verify your intentions. Look at anyother thread asking suspicious questions. They recieved the same treatment. You shot yourself in the foot when youi made your little comment about the spider you had written and were planning on masss mailing all of your ISP's customers. If you had kept that to yourself we might have been a little morehelpfull but instead you set off our "skiddie radar". So if you'r going to continue to act like a bitch I am going to be forced to continue to treat you like one. And as far as any violations of your rights you have the right to remain a jackass but be prepared for the backlash.

ZomBie~

Shame on you! :eek:

I really don't know why I fired the APs at him........rather like using 105mm HESH against Chobham armour?

That guy does not have a skull..............he has a glacis plate.

However, I was not allowed to fire any APs at you, so I thought I would go to the AO shop and get you a LART for Christmas.

You know, a LART.................. Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool

Recent reports from Langley have it that baseball bats are popular? Otherwise I will have to use my Syrian contacts and get you a second hand WMD ;) ............well, where do you think they all went to?

I have had a couple of "love letters" from himself...............I will let the cat reply ;)

please look at the attachment...............

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Originally posted here by Neptune0z
[...]
I just started an account with this ISP about a month ago, and for the first 2 weeks had no problem forging packets. Then about two weeks ago they begain using egress filtering, which totally stopped my ability to spoof from their network (Although I still can using VPN to another one).
[...]

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If you can VPN out into your work account to conduct your security audits, what is the issue?

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[...]
I know that my ISP has me using a different router/gatway configuration then everyone else on their network.

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Umm, so what?

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[...]
Personally, I think there sensors picked up on some of the non-standard/spoofed traffic I was sending, and they then classified me as a potential hacker, and stuck me on a different segment then everone else where they could monitor my connections and prevent me from interacting with the internal network. Wouldnt this be discrimination?

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Yes, it would be discrimination. Discrimination itself is not a crime you know, it's sensible in a lot of cases. It's when it is misapplied that it becomes an issue. If you can work from your VPN connection, what's the problem?

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Originally posted here by Neptune0z
There's always another ISP out there to use though. I pay for my service and as a customer there's various things I expect from them as a business. An attempt to tag me so that my
surfing habits are not anonymous is totally unacceptable and I would gladly lose my account to let others know.

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News flash, the Internet is a vast PUBLIC network. If I'm a cab driver it's silly to expect me to try and drive you somewhere and still not know where your source and destination points are.

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The internet was founded on anonimity.

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No, it wasn't. It was founded by the U.S. Department of Defense in order to decentralize all their research efforts and make it "nuke proof". The Internet and anonymity have nothing to do with one another really, except that misguided individuals think they somehow are anonymous online.
In short, yes, your ISP probably logged you as a potential threat, and yes, they likely did something with your connection. Contact them about it, explain the situation with references about your company, OR simply drop it and use your VPN connection for all your work.

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Originally posted here by Cybr1d
Somehow I think that you just downloaded something like Retina or SSS and are screwing around with them....you're using a proxy because you think somehow its gonna trace back to you...You did too many audits in your network so your ISP is getting suspicious and now you're blaming them?

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If he can VPN somewhere, the proxies are irrelevant. Who cares what your opinion of the guy is, why not just answer his question?

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Originally posted here by CybertecOne
When you got really defensive about us not answering your question;

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There's a difference between not answering the question and the slew of idiotic assumptions that have been made. If there'd be a whole lot of not answering the post at all, there wouldn't be any "defensiveness" now would there?

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that set off my defenses and it just seemed to me you really are upto malicious purposes and that you were lying to us. i mean, we are taking exactly the same stace as your ISP, so maybe you really are the one at fault here... sorry but it just looks that way.

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Umm, I'll keep that in mind next time I see you ask a question about anything. If it's remotely suspicious I'll break into a similar song and dance about your intentions, because I obviously KNOW, right? Suspicion is good, but don't kid yourself into thinking that's what's going on here. What is going on here is group thinking.

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Originally posted here by JoeMacDaddy
Most ISPs will not monitor and redirect your traffic unless they are ordered to by law enforcement for the collection of evidence.

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Ssshhh, don't tell people here that, you'll get yelled at. ;)

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Originally posted here by ZomBieMann77
just because you ask a question doesnt entitle you to an automatic answer.

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Indeed, however it also shouldn't mean he should be subjected to other people's idiotic namecalling and derision now does it? Another good example of the herd mentality going on here. If you don't like the way he words the questions, don't respond.

Well Mr Godall high and mighty Chris Shepherd, I have a little bit of news for you:

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Umm, I'll keep that in mind next time I see you ask a question about anything. If it's remotely suspicious I'll break into a similar song and dance about your intentions, because I obviously KNOW, right? Suspicion is good, but don't kid yourself into thinking that's what's going on here. What is going on here is group thinking.

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Yes, AO is actually a COMMUNITY, and communities frequently have group thoughts: here is a new word for you:

"DEMOCRACY"

Google for it, you just might learn something :p

Also consider concepts such as "two minds are greater than one", "peer group analysis" and so on............

I have tolerated your particular arrogance for some time now, on this occasion I feel disinclined to do so.

:rolleyes:

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Originally posted here by Neptune0z
I know whats what and who's who now

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Oh no you dont :D

Actually, what is going on is kind of retarded. It may be a community but you have no way of verifying whether my own intentions are good, your friends, or the noobs. You're just hoping you're fed an acceptable and believable line of bullshit before giving out any kind of information.

You can choose to answer questions, not answer, or give enough guidance for the person in question to answer their own question. The witch hunt stuff is just stupid...

AO is not a democracy. You don't have rights here, the power to vote for change, etc. You only have the power that Jupiter Media gives you while living by their code of conduct, terms of service, etc.

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AO is not a democracy. You don't have rights here, the power to vote for change, etc. You only have the power that Jupiter Media gives you while living by their code of conduct, terms of service, etc.

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Exactly what the original question was about........... the guy has a contract with an ISP and seems p1$$ed off that they are implementing it?

I will speculate a bit more, if I may?............. I think that he opened a private account and has been using it for commercial purposes?........... from his attitude it is obvious that he has no respect for AUPs

That's my view anyways

EDIT: I guess I am talking about a "parliamentary democracy" or the like.

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If he can VPN somewhere, the proxies are irrelevant. Who cares what your opinion of the guy is, why not just answer his question?

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If your uptight little ass could have spent a little more time on reading my post instead of being a jackass about it, you might have very well noticed the point behind it, and the questions at the end of it.

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Indeed, however it also shouldn't mean he should be subjected to other people's idiotic namecalling and derision now does it? Another good example of the herd mentality going on here. If you don't like the way he words the questions, don't respond.

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Sure it does...u act like an idiot, u get called an idiot. I'm not saying that he was acting like an idiot....but if he sounds like a skiddie, he will be called a skiddie....capiche?

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If you don't like the way he words the questions, don't respond.

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dito.....if you dont like the way we worded our posts -i.e. finding them a waste of space, then maybe you shouldn't respond neither? don't u think? Sorry but I didn't know u were in charge of letting people know when their posts are a waste of space...dickhead.

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Originally posted here by nihil
Yes, AO is actually a COMMUNITY, and communities frequently have group thoughts: here is a new word for you:
"DEMOCRACY"
Google for it, you just might learn something :p

Also consider concepts such as "two minds are greater than one", "peer group analysis" and so on............

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Ask any cop or security guard who's done crowd control (or someone whose profession is researching group or crowd dynamics), they'll tell you that when applied to the right thing, those statements are true, however in many cases the inverse is true. Crowds behave on a lowest common denominator level, which is what is happening here. It's like a shark feeding frenzy, and it's utter garbage..

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I have tolerated your particular arrogance for some time now, on this occasion I feel disinclined to do so.

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It's arrogant to suggest that the knee-jerk assumptions going on here are probably not the best course of action, and the people involved probably need to have it pointed out to them to see what they're doing?
My turn! :rolleyes:

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Originally posted here by Cybr1d
If your uptight little ass could have spent a little more time on reading my post instead of being a jackass about it, you might have very well noticed the point behind it, and the questions at the end of it.

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I read your post, which is why I responded as I did. It seems that you failed to understand my response, which is understandable I suppose, given the way you generally tend to post.

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Sure it does...u act like an idiot, u get called an idiot. I'm not saying that he was acting like an idiot....but if he sounds like a skiddie, he will be called a skiddie....capiche?

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Oh, I understand the idiocy of the idea of "if he sounds like a skiddie, he will be called a skiddie", doesn't mean I have to agree with it, what with this being some form of "democracy" (snicker).

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dito.....if you dont like the way we worded our posts -i.e. finding them a waste of space, then maybe you shouldn't respond neither?

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Now, see here's the irony. You'd rather you just get to unabatedly flame whoever you like? Cool, next time I'll just report your posts and be done with it. Maybe you guys will get banned for just making these assumptions.

My hope was that perhaps you might open your eyes to what is going on, and perhaps had read MsMittens' comments on Full Disclosure on AO. Your statements in this thread are the exact elitism and garbage knee-jerk reaction she commented on. I happen to agree with her view of things, so I'm calling you on it.

It's sad that so many namecalling instead of responding to my actual point.

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My hope was that perhaps you might open your eyes to what is going on, and perhaps had read MsMittens' comments on Full Disclosure on AO. Your statements in this thread are the exact elitism and garbage knee-jerk reaction she commented on. I happen to agree with her view of things, so I'm calling you on it.

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Errr...what elitism? The fact that I say it the way I see it...without worrying about being nice just so it pleases the few morons like yourself that hang around here? **** that...and **** you. If you don't like it...you're welcome to comment on it, but don't be surprised when I have a comment right back at you.

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I read your post, which is why I responded as I did. It seems that you failed to understand my response, which is understandable I suppose, given the way you generally tend to post.

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You read my post..but you didn't understand jack **** and you missed the whole point because you're simply a moron. As you were reading my post, being the moron that you are, you immediately jumped on the reply button dying to add something moronic to this thread.

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Cool, next time I'll just report your posts and be done with it. Maybe you guys will get banned for just making these assumptions.

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Thats fine with me...report it all you want...it just shows what a moron you are. Make sure you report this one too. Maybe you should get banned for being a deuchebag? The problem with elitist jackasses like yourself is that you try think there's somehow a "good side" and a "bad side" to AO, and you just happen to fall on the "good side"....say it aint so?