tracing cellphones/internet connections?

i just watched "the net" with sandra bullock and throughout the movie she is frequently being traced on cell phones, internet connections, etc. some things in the movie seemed pretty authentic, at one point she covers her tracks at one point by connecting through a chain of other servers. so, i was wondering:

1. how quickly can an internet connection be traced to an address(in the movie it was about 10 seconds)? and what's the general process to trace them? is the only way to figure out what isp it belongs to and then ask them?

2. with cell phones, i've heard of being able to tell the general area of where somebody is based on what cell they're in, but in the movie they were like sending "pulses" to her phone in real time and were able to tell her location down to a couple of feet. is that realisitc?

If you run a Google on the subject you will see that a bill was passed in the US to mandate that all cell companies must be able to locate anyone making a 911 call.
You will also see that many cell phones now have GPS chips embedded in them which will certainly give the "powers" the ability to track the phone down to a few feet.

what about tracing someone by their internet connection? is there a way to instantaneously(or very quickly) resolve an ip to a house address?(like in the movie) or would you have to figure out the isp(based on their ip) and contact the isp to request the info. the isp shouldnt just give this out to anybody right, only police? how can people tell what country you're in, etc. based on ur ip?

First off: The movie sucks !

Second: You can trace an IP but you'll most likely get the ISP's address since the connection goes through them, if you contact them they're not gonna you anybody address, they can give the police the address in an instant since they have all your personal info and they're the ones assigning you an IP in the first place.

yeah..i agree..the movie sucks!

Cell phones are just like carrying a BIG 'Over Here' flag on your head.

Before the call is processed the position of said phone is known to within a few yards,
Signal is 'seen' by at least two, and more often, three cell masts.
Each cell will have a strength of signal and direction, triangulation / trig and you are nailed.

Bad boys NEVER allow you to CARRY, let alone use, a cell phone within their presence.

Films MAY be an over dramatised version, but they are [nearly] always based on empirical fact.

Even Star Trek had at its root, a strong link to the 'real' world of science and physics, in that everything they showed or used, was based at least on a theory that was current at time of production.

For those of us old enough to remember 'Flash Gordon'...........
When he used to say :
"pass the ray gun" a small item, that could feasibly be a ray gun was passed across.
"pass the anti-gravity belt" again. an item was strapped in place that could be an anti-grav device.
However; when he called for the 'portable radio', he was given something the size of a desk, as at that time, radios WERE huge things, and the mind set of the day was incapable of seeing into the future re:- actual devices.

So, remember, the films ARE make believe. BUT they are based on an idea from some time soon.

Damn it but I ramble on at times............... time for ANOTHER :drink:

[edit] book - fiction - title forgotton :Oops:
to thwart criminal actions, cell phones were disabled during terrorist activity, access was by dialing an additional code number into the phone first. This had the effect of stopping said terrorists communications, yet still allowing the forces of law and order to operate............

How long before this is implemented as a matter of course during trouble as 'small' as soccer violence / riots / flying pickets [UK scenario]

Damn it, but those glasses are getting SMALLER..........

:hic:

An interesting mixture: how about those PC cards from Sprint, etc that allow internet access anywhere on their cell network? Could these be as easily traceable as cell phones, or would this be more like war-driving, dropping/re-establishing the connection every so often as one moves from one location to another....Hmmm.

EDIT: I think 'The Net' was a cool movie, but only because I wasn't into computers when it was produced, so it seems kinda neat, the "good ole days", I guess....and let's not forget 'Hackers'..."Wow! A 28.8K modem! VGA graphics!" lol

The other problem with tracing IP addresses is that if the person is up to no good, then they are probably operating from a compromised computer and not their own. In this case it is almost impossible to track them back to their actual location.

Quote:

---

1. how quickly can an internet connection be traced to an address(in the movie it was about 10 seconds)? and what's the general process to trace them? is the only way to figure out what isp it belongs to and then ask them?

---

Basically yes.............you connect to your ISP and through them to somewhere else. Your ISP will know where you are connecting from and will have your account details.

Now, a lot will depend upon:

1. The time of day............ISPs don't staff to answer trace requests in the middle of the night. What I am saying that a trace in real time is not so easy unless you have set the mechanism up beforehand.
2. You democracy and laws...........try getting a warrant from a magistrate at 03.00 Hrs :)
3. Your type of connection. A static IP is easier to trace than a dynamic one. Wireless connections only point to the location.........who are you? where (exactly) are you?...........not so easy.
4. Are proxy servers being used? I have some software called Steganos Anonymiser...........I connect to my ISP then launch this. It connects using a list of public proxy servers across the Globe literally! 60 seconds from Canada, 60 seconds from South Africa, 60 seconds from Japan, and so on.

Try tracing that :D ............sure you could, but NOT in real time...........think of the diplomatic channels you would have to go through?

Please remember that over here we have a number of free ISPs, they do not really care who you are or where you live. They get paid a percentage by the Telcos, for the connection time from anywhere in the UK...........so it would be easy to create a totally bogus account.

So, I have my fake ISP account. I infiltrate some office or factory, find an unused phone and divert the calls from it to my ISP. I call that phone, use my Anonymizer and away I go.

Sure, it can be traced, but it will take a fair bit of sifting through logs.............not a real time event IMHO.

Please don't try any of this stuff, it is a fact of life that if you behave furtively, you will be assumed to be a criminal :D

what if ur connecting to your isp from a hotel or something? does the isp know where its connection going to or does it only know that that account is registered to a certain address?

also, with cell phones, only the cell phone provider would know your location and people would have to find out from them, right? people cant just make a phone call or something to you and be able to track your location right?(they were doing that in the movie)

Quote:

---

what if ur connecting to your isp from a hotel or something? does the isp know where its connection going to or does it only know that that account is registered to a certain address?

---

Yes, the ISP knows your address (IP address, as they give them to you) They will know the telephone number you have used to connect. ..............that will lead to the hotel. The link that has to be made is between your your account and you..............but the hardware side is pretty clear cut.

However, say you get a laptop, wireless and a scanner...................go find yourself a nice open wireless setup............then hide in the bushes or whatever...............(watch out for randy feral tom cats:))

All that will lead to is the physical location of the unprotected wireless network..............if you hacked their facilities you would be connecting as them, not you?

Hell, I could wander up town to my local railway station and use their FREE wireless connection..........it would only place me somewhere near the railway station? Remember, I have already set up a fake ISP account...........

There are members on this site who will confirm that I have an account in downtown Hanoi...........yes that is North Vietnam..............FEDs would get a lot of help from them huh? :eek:

Well if I am exchanging virus samples I sure as hell don't want an accident on my regular ISP's servers? :cool:

Please just trust me when I say that if THEY want you they will get you...............just don't give them the motive?

what about a broadband connection? say you sneak your cable modem into a hotel and set connect to your regular account?(assuming that the hotel is setup for broadband) can they trace that?

there is a third world take a look at that world ..........

In some countries 70% of internet connections(cable)are illegal by illegal i mean not having there address associated with any global ip address(basically accessing internet through a LAN)
so ????
how would u actually go on to trace a IP address???
at best u can get the gateway's IP address right????
then from there u have to go to that city contact LAN administrator and see if u can figure out anything i am not sure if anyone can procede any further from there.........
i think there is a need for a new cyber treaty among all the countries banning these type of non tax paid internet connection and taking strict measures to insure that each and every IP address can be mapped with in seconds.....

it is not difficult to achieve just takes the determination nothing else.............
if u have a global cyber treaty then pplz like osama bin laden (or supporters) wil think twice before using emails...

Bollox, i tried to neg this thread and ended up giving poses to it. Doh.

About tracing the phones, it is possible if you have enough towers nearby to get a rough location. But even if phone companies are set up and ready to let some agency use their system this way they would have to get warrents and it would take time, etc.

Quote:

---

what about a broadband connection? say you sneak your cable modem into a hotel and set connect to your regular account?(assuming that the hotel is setup for broadband) can they trace that?

---

Broadband is easier than most..............you are a prime customer............

I am not sure about where you are, but I use BT in the United Kingdom..................it will only work from my home phone line, so I cannot transport it. I have a 56.6 service that I can log into from any telephone in the UK at least, and probably the European Union (but I have not tried that yet)

Jinxy.............I feel that it is our duty to point out to "enthusiasts", "trainspotters" or whatever you like to call them, that they will get caught if they become annoying enough?

There are those who may say "Johnno, you shouldn't have told them that...." OK............print out what I have posted, and follow the instructions?...,,errr, there aren't any are there...........I have only discussed concepts and principles, not details?

If anyone really wants to remain anonymous, might I suggest that you go to the boys' room, look in the mirror, pop your zits, and ask who in hell would be interested in your miserable existence..........then go seek professional help.

Real criminals don't come to AO for advice :D

Quote:

---

say you sneak your cable modem into a hote

---

The only thing I have ever snuck into a hotel was a woman!!!!!!!but I am a heterosexual pervert, I must admit :rolleyes:

my broadband is thru the cable lines, cant i use that anywhere that has cable lines that can be used for broadband?

btw: i'm not a criminal, this whole thread was started based on some questions i had about a movie(apparently a very stupid movie)

Slinky,

I don't think you are a "criminal" :D your question was more along the lines of "fact or fiction"

As for broadband, I don't know what it is like where you are. Over here, cable is fixed to a physical (building) address and also tends to have a fixed IP address..................that makes physical tracing easier.

:)

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by ©opy®ight
First off: The movie sucks !

Second: You can trace an IP but you'll most likely get the ISP's address since the connection goes through them, if you contact them they're not gonna you anybody address, they can give the police the address in an instant since they have all your personal info and they're the ones assigning you an IP in the first place.

---

WRONG. The DHCP is setup with software like "NetStorm" or the likes. This software is like a database and thus holds info such as "are you current on payments", or "WHERE do you live".

Because of this a rule implemented by the FCC on GPS info, this binds it down to addy of the house in question. So, if someone is being "questioned" on their IP usage, it will trace back to the "account holder" address. As you know, the account holder MUST live and reside at that house. I will give you an example.

www.foxnews.com's IP address is 63.209.52.94...below is the "Whois"

OrgName: Level 3 Communications, Inc.
OrgID: LVLT
Address: 1025 Eldorado Blvd.
City: Broomfield
StateProv: CO
PostalCode: 80021
Country: US
NetRange: 63.208.0.0 - 63.215.255.255
CIDR: 63.208.0.0/13
NetName: LEVEL4-CIDR
NetHandle: NET-63-208-0-0-1
Parent: NET-63-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
NameServer: NS1.LEVEL3.NET
NameServer: NS2.LEVEL3.NET
Comment: ADDRESSES WITHIN THIS BLOCK ARE NON-PORTABLE
RegDate: 1999-05-28
Updated: 2001-05-30

TechHandle: LC-ORG-ARIN
TechName: level Communications
TechPhone: +1-877-453-8353
TechEmail:

OrgAbuseHandle: APL8-ARIN
OrgAbuseName: Abuse POC LVLT
OrgAbusePhone: +1-877-453-8353
OrgAbuseEmail:

OrgTechHandle: TPL1-ARIN
OrgTechName: Tech POC LVLT
OrgTechPhone: +1-877-453-8353
OrgTechEmail:

OrgTechHandle: ARINC4-ARIN
OrgTechName: ARIN Contact
OrgTechPhone: +1-800-436-8489
OrgTechEmail:

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2004-11-27 19:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.

domain name cannot be resolved.



Note the BOLD text, that is well, the Backbone they use, and are probably going through a HUGE datacenter with a DS3 connection. But......

The physical server is located in Plano, TX. on the "southeast side of town" so to speak.

Trust me when I say that doing this test to myself, that it is EXACT. Lat, and Long. are right on. Canada does not follow the US rules, as well as other countries, so this is sorta difficult to pinpoint when doing. But, you should NEVER use that information for bad.... remember, everything has a trail.

XPGOD

Quote:

---

Because of this a rule implemented by the FCC on GPS info, this binds it down to addy of the house in question. So, if someone is being "questioned" on their IP usage, it will trace back to the "account holder" address. As you know, the account holder MUST live and reside at that house.

---

Hrmm.. so what if the IP used (and apparently associated with the user) was a hijacked wireless IP? (that is they have a Wireless AP, issuing out DHCP private and the attacker uses that)? Or, it's a "spoofed address"? How do I know that the "person" at the other end is in fact the person committing the attack?

And the above only works publically with companies. What about individuals? Or rather what about individuals in companies/universities?

This all said, of course, can be a mote point since it would require a warrant to get this information from the ISP and just cause to associate you to the crime (not always as easy as we'd like)

Edit: quick question:

Quote:

---

The physical server is located in Plano, TX. on the "southeast side of town" so to speak.

---

So why does the bold say:

Quote:

---

OrgName: Level 3 Communications, Inc.
OrgID: LVLT
Address: 1025 Eldorado Blvd.
City: Broomfield
StateProv: CO
PostalCode: 80021
Country: US

---

Which is Colorado (??) and yet you say:

Quote:

---

As you know, the account holder MUST live and reside at that house. I will give you an example.

---

Perhaps I'm missing what the example is about?

Ahhh good question.

This is why we need more implementation on IDS systems or things that READ into packets. He can only spoof "so much". When you capture live data, and capture the packets, the right person can see the real MAC address, or real data of the machine either that being a PDA or Blackberry or laptop.

Think about the recourse he has to go through on spoofing. It can sometimes make alot of noise he hopes won't be seen. He can't lie, only emulate the lie. I would need to look into more of how wireless differs from hardline, as I don't mess with wireless networks other than pentest for problems. Good question though... Gets me thinking, I like that.

Also, Businesses data lines differ from that in the accounting look than that of ISP's. My thoughts on this seem wish washy now as I'm tired, (just went through some MD5 crap), But most people pay a provider of internet and people usually associate the whois with where the server is. This is wrong. Like, the whois on a Comcast will show PA, as that is where the accounting "headquarters" are. The backbones of ISP's are shared lines through like, Sprintlink, SBC crap or their own.

Uh... capture the MAC address (which could also be spoofed)? Perhaps I'm still missing something but I thought that MAC address resolutions were sort of a local thing and couldn't go beyond the immediate router. I think I'm missing something.

Quote:

---

Also, Businesses data lines differ from that in the accounting look than that of ISP's. My thoughts on this seem wish washy now as I'm tired, (just went through some MD5 crap), But most people pay a provider of internet and people usually associate the whois with where the server is. This is wrong. Like, the whois on a Comcast will show PA, as that is where the accounting "headquarters" are. The backbones of ISP's are shared lines through like, Sprintlink, SBC crap or their own.

---

Be that as it may, I would image quite a few of the attackers coming from sources other than business lines. I've done the what-if scenario... *IF* I was to do an attack, find a large enough city that few knew I was going to, find an open area, put on gloves and use their systems. It's really hard to track someone using the public libary. Then again, they may have cameras. So next option would be to wardrive from a community where there are lots of open APs and little attention given to someone "being there" (e.g., student residence).

Doesn't mean that it's impossible to track but rather how deep and determined are the pockets of those after me?

Well as I said before, having good Engress/Egress filters, and good surveillence people manning the network as well as setting up a good network could eliminate this issues. You see, people with cable or DSL modems have a hard time spoofing mac's as they have one in the modem too, and with software running that knows what is what....this should not occur. I setup with my ISP a test, and they saw it. NOC Center picked it in 20 seconds. I've assigned 10 Macs to my modem and they called me at 2:30am to ask what I was doing. My modem carries it's own 10.x.x.x IP within the network and shut it down when "bad" things happen.

I'm not sure as I said about wireless equipment. I will look into and ask around. That is very interesting. Things like protocols, and information trading back and forth. Never really even looked into it that well. But my brother in law is a Network Engineer in a Cisco WLAN environment so he should know.

Hey I see you're CISSP, good job! I'm working towards one soon and would love to just sit and teach end users all day about the simplicity of security. Social Engineering, passwords, and how they keep their workstations....

Sorry if I was confusing to read, I've been on muscle relaxers and have a hard time keeping a level thought lately, I never meant to confuse IP's of foxnews.com and home users in limbo. I just didn't want a strike against me for using an IP of someone without express written consent....


Doesn't mean that it's impossible to track but rather how deep and determined are the pockets of those after me? I second that, it matters on who's even gonna look, and if they want to do anything about it. FBI Spokesman Jeff Lanza told me that 45% of hacks aren't reported due to the "I'm afraid of losing customers" theory.

wait, i didnt get the stuff about the gps... how can they get my global position from my ip? and what does all of this have to do with IDS and mac addresses?

Quote:

---

wait, i didnt get the stuff about the gps... how can they get my global position from my ip? and what does all of this have to do with IDS and mac addresses?

---

That is probably because this thread is addressing two distinct technologies:

1. Mobile phones
2. The internet

GPS is "global positioning system"................that is how your emergency call on your cellphone is located. I cold drop a 155mm shell on your toes with that.........typically no more than three feet out!

Your IP address is given to you by your ISP. Typically a trace will lead to the ISP location, not yours..............for example mine would be about 120 miles away. Then it is a logs and tracing exercise. If I use a cellphone I emit a signal. The internet will not neccessarily do so, and will only be to retain the connection to my ISP if I am not doing anything on the net.

IDS = Intrusion Detection System, MAC addresses relate to hardware................not really relevant in the original context of the post.

Hope that helps :)

Just thought i would put my oar in here.

And i must admit i have not read all the posts but; if you use a moblie phone. It is possible to pinpoint your location within a few metres. If you think about it, the art of (DF) direction finding has been around for some time. At least since the second world war.

Now, our mobile phones need to keeep a connection to the network we use. They do this by sending a signal to the network every so often (i believe 15 min's). This signal is picked up by the nearest mast, but also by any other masts within range. The signal would be like, hello it's me. The reply would be like, yes we know.

So you have a network that communicates all the time. Back in World war 2 it would take three DF's to pin point the location of a transmitter and it would nead to transmit for the length of time, an opperator could set up his gear and identify the direction it came from. These days it can be done done with 2 and it is instantaniuos. So as long as you are within range of at least 2 masts, you can be pinpointed. Even if you are not using your cell phone, it just neads to be switched on.

Well its all an easy way to track any one using the IP addy, but am not sure bout the Cell phones , In order to track someone via using the IP u need to D/L a Software Called VisualRoute from www.visualware.com its an awesome tool. One more thing if u get the IP of ISP then u cant get into the person's info coz ur getting the information of the ISP Itself.

Okay...im not totaly clear about the wireless internet issue...and have wanting to ask this for a while, but havent gotten around to it....

say i walk into borders or panera, and soak up their wifi....IF the powers that be were after me, the would go to borders/panera, but wouldnt be able to find me? Doesnt the wifi log some information about your computer? (laptop, in this case) Obviously it prolly knows your IP and MAC, but cant it go deeper than that? (as far as what the router knows about you, and what THEY can track on the other side of the router)

-z3

If you war drive a home wifi network, it is very easy to remain anonimous. Practicaly the only way to id you is visualy. On the other hand most ISP's have a clause in there AUP that states, "You should not allow anonimous access". So if you take no steps to secure your network, you are in breach of your ISP's AUP.

DFing a mobile phone would require very close appoximation. They transmit about 1/8 to a 1/4 w. Then you would have to know which frequency it is tuned too. That information comes from the controller in real time, he (the machine) assigns a frequency. Then on that same frequency are a host of other phones in their own time slots. In a practical sense you would need some intimate knowledge and highly specialized equipment to follow the frequency hopping algoithm, and then some how isolate a single phone attached to a frequency and cell site with about 100 others to choose from. Now if you are out in an isolated area, the rules change but in general its pretty much impossible. Then even to get a good DF you would need at least 2 readings, not just a few feet apart but hundreds.

Adding GPS to a phone makes it possible within about say 130 feet IF, and that is a big IF, your phone has visibility to about 6 GPS satelites. If say; 1 or 2 sats are visible that goes to within 300+ feet and if you are in a moving car or a building, you can forget it. The phones are not powerful enough to calculate a moving trajectory or see sats within some cars and especially a building.

Just spouting some thoughts.

when you say "they" can pinpoint you, who do you mean? your phone company? how realistic is it that regular "hacky people" could watch where ur cell phone going with gps? has anybody heard about that new satellite imaging technology that can determine the make and model of a car from space? who would get access to something like that?

Well as far as satellite imagery, the US government, as well as many other governments, have had that for years. I remember watching some show on the discovery channel that picked apart some hollywood video that used satellite imagery and it gave the black and white about what it could and couldnt do.....pinpointing and identifying a car make/model/liscense plate is no problem in reality.....hell, it could probably read the little writing on the tires....i cant even do that hehee

Quote:

---

has anybody heard about that new satellite imaging technology that can determine the make and model of a car from space

---

I used that stuff years ago..................I could tell you the make from the empty packet of cigarettes on the sidewalk....................

The sidewalk was in Beiruit..................haven't been there since about 1965 :D

that accurate huh? the article i read was on google news, it said that it couldnt make out peoples faces, but if u can make out cigarette packets on the sidewalk... anyway, can anybody use gps to track ur phone? would they have to like hack a gps satellite or something? how realistic is that? i just saw a movie hacker tracking people again in "national treasure" this weekend

Satellite imagery was the best kept military secret for decades. The problem is they aren't stationary. Tracking someone in "real" time would be difficult.

Quote:

---

who would get access to something like that?

---

My buddy who designs them. He will do anything for steak.


http://www.digitalglobe.com/

And others...


http://www.spaceimaging.com/

etc

Quote:

---

anyway, can anybody use gps to track ur phone?

---

No, only the security services can use gps to track your phone. Your cell provider will know where you are if they want to look. Over here there is a service that lets you know what the traffic is like in the area you are in. It is automated, you dial a number and it let's you no if there is any snarl up's and what roads they are on. To do this they have to DF you it takes seconds.

Surely you could wardrive a wireless network and if you are using a powerful enough setup you could be pretty far away. Is it possible to be traced to the laptop surely they would just find the access point you are connecting to.

i watched this film, too, but such films must only be watched for amusement... these things are not real... for example: in the film "swordfish", the guy cracks 128-bit passwords in no time... the same for 256-bit passwords, which are really hard to crack... so these things don't exist in the reality

Yea well i found out this little phone secret along time ago, that i thnik some of you might find useful.... ANY unactivated phone can still dial 911, and 711, mabey even others, 711 is a overnment funded number for the def and hard of hearing ppl..... but fer some reason cell phones have it fer free... well what you do is call that 711 number... you might not want to do this at your house.... and an operator will come up and say TTY operator 334 or something like that.... then you give them the phone number you want them to call, and they will connect you to anyone in the us in a matter of seconds... but they will disconnect you as soon as they find out you are not DEF.... lol, only use in case of emergency's and if you really need it... :P keep in mind it could be highly illegal in [blur]SOME[/blur] states.... :mad: