Where Do I Start (Different Newbie Question)

After spending over 7 years in the US Marine Corps, I have decided I want to be a Computer Security Specialist. I am currently enrolled in a local community college in IT, and am set to start this spring semester, 2005 and my next step is to chose my electives. I want to do what ROn1n does, work for a large security consultance protecting companys databases, or work for the government, tracking down terrorists groups or cyber-terrorists. I plan on taking 2 years at this local community college to get my associates degree then transfering on to a 4-year college, for my bachelors, and then take any further schooling neccassary for me to accomplish my objective.

My question is, what computer information systems/related curriculum should I take (i.e. CIS 121 Microsoft Office, CIS 225 Andvance Java Programming, CSC (Computer Science) 214 Signal and Immaging Processing, and CSC 215 Introduction to Linux. And what IT sequences should I take (i.e. CIS 110 Building and Maintaining the PC and CIS 208 Visual Basic Programming, or CIS 225 Advance Java Programming and CSC 206 Digital Computer Organization) in order for me to get to and be what I want to be and do what I want to do in the Computer Security field? And what other electives should I take that to help gear me toward that profession? Like should I take psychology, forensic psychology, criminology, etc.?

I have a fairly good knowledge of Windows, but am not certified in anything. I have a very basic knowledge of networking and used to use these little laptop-type computers to process fire missions and talk to other scout teams where we had to set up the other teams addresses and create files in the computer to talk digitally to them over encrypted frequencies that we had to establish.

Any and all information, input, comments, suggestions or responses would be very greatly appreciated and helpful, and if ROn1n is reading this, I would very much appreciate anything you have to say about this, as well, or anyone else who does what he does or works along those lines, working for a large, or any size security consultancy. Thank you very much for your time and consideration to anyone who take the time to read this and especially to those who respond.

what college are you at?

Take that intro to Linux Class... If you don't know any linux, that is. That will make you more well rounded at any rate.

I'm pretty much on the same track that you want to be.

My associates degree is for Computer Network Engineering which focuses on networks, protocols, switching and routing (Cisco academy), firewalls and intrusion detection systems (small bit), intro programming (c/c++), Microsoft and *nix operating systems, circuit theory and application, microprocessors, structured computer orginization, discrete mathematics (boolean algebra) and a couple other things.

From there I can take an additional 6 classes (programming, macroeconomics, accounting) and get a second associates degree in Computer Information Systems.

I plan on getting my CCNA cert along with Network + and Security + certs this winter and summer.

I haven't really taken any applications courses. I've just learned them on my own to the best of my abilities.

The most important thing (possibly even over your degree) will be experience. So, get your foot in the door some place doing tech support and work your way up. I've learned sooooo much more from working in the field than I have from learning in a classroom. I started doing tech support and now I do everything. You can't be taught to troubleshoot. Its something you pick up on your own from experience. Join a couple of computer forums and participate. Ask smart questions (not questions that you can find with a quick google search). Help out others when you know the answers.

If you can't get a job somewhere... grab any and every computer you can get your hands on and build yourself a network and actually apply everything that you have learned. You can read it in a book 1000+ times. But can you actually apply it and make it work?

Well, thats my opinion. Everyone does it differently.

Learn ever OS you can, learn all the Networking stuff you can. To protect a network you need to know them inside and out. Take programming to learn about exploits, and what they actually do. Learn linux, if your working on a network you will need to know *nix at some point in time. To protect databases learn SQL and other database language. You wanna work for the gov doing this stuff you need to be damn good. Oh and get a job working with computer. Tech support is a good start. In my experience if you can walk a complete idiot through trouble shooting steps and fixes then you know the computer pretty well. plus you see TONS of random problems that they dont show in books. You can try all you want but human stupidity/error is impossible to recreate with a computer. plus it will get your foot in the door for bigger things.

All good advice given above, but don't forget your background courses like English, math, and political science.

Why.....because anyone who will hire you will be looking at how well you can communicate, in person and in letters and memos.

No one wants the shabby dressed socially inept nerd now days. They want some one who will project the image they wish to promote with their buisness. And that also means being able to carry on a conversation about current events.....that are not technically related.

moxnix: Very true. It would seem that the biggest area that works wants me to improve on is communication skills. I try to keep up with current events but my english and technical writing needs some improvement. I've taken the classes, but I need to review my books every now and again. I don't write many docs or memos. Just like with everything else... if I don't use it, I loose it.

I would think that given a military background, the governmental / police investigations route would be the way to go.

I'm studying computer security / forensic investigations currently. My college has provided a broad background in law and criminal psychology as well as the more technical aspects, which will certainly help if I go the investigations route.

An investigation is only half the process. The other half lies in successfully prosecuting the suspect, which involves preseving the chain of evidence, knowing specifically which laws were violated, presenting a case before a judge / jury panel effectively, and proper search and siezure techniques.

I would personally think that a programming background is not as important as the law and security background in this field. The time spent learning it would be better spent elsewhere. A few basic programming courses are a necessity, though, unless you learn it totally on your own.

Linux is a must. The flexibility of linux forensics far outweighs the user-friendliness of Windows forensics. And don't forget that half the servers around run on it, or some unix variant.

So I would definitely recommend the linux, criminology, psychology, and computer science courses. Criminology and psychology actually help a lot more then you expect when you can rationalize offender motivations to some degree. Try to find some in the network security field as well. I wouldn't worry *too* mych about the coding end of things, though. Investigators aren't developing new code; they just need to understand existing code to some degree.

As a newbie you have to start from basics look forward to unix, networking fundamentals(ccna)
c programming,socket programming in c learning all this will help a lot don't be in any kinda hurry all this requires time and patience.
Apart from all this i will recomend ASM programming too.If you have a good knowledge on asm you will have no problem in learning other programming languages Also you will learn the art of reverse engineering.
And always be involved with AO.you don't have to post to be involve remember you can be negged badly for asking bad question here you don't want to be banned so always remember to read all posts if you don't understand some terms used in those posts for example bittorent or MD5 or one way encryption then got to google and search this way you will learn a lot.

If you're intending to use these skills in law-enforcement/government enforcement, I would strongly suggest contacting the agency you desire to join and asking them what their prerequisites for joining them are. This goes doubly for the 'free market' IT types - in this day and age, plain 'computer professionals' are dime a dozen. Aiming specifically at a certain agency would be your best route.

Now if you just want it for the 'knowledge' side.....
Everything suggested above, plus
at least an associates/state certification in Criminal Justice/criminology (yes, become a licensed cop, whether you choose to work as one or not - it'll add just the right amount of 'oomph' to your resume). You might also consider adding a few forensics courses just for the right amount of spice - this way you not only know what you're looking for in when you look at a machine, you know what laws have been broken how on stuff you 'stumble across,' and you know how to acquire information that's been 'deleted' or 'damaged'. You'll also know how to conduct outside investigations, proper Q&A techniques for various folks you'll encounter in the course of your investigation, and what to look for there as well..

Damn man, you guys are good. I posted this reply an about an hour later I already had four responses. I appologize for not responding sooner, but things keep popping up, but I don't want to seem rude to you all who have taken the time to give me their input to help me out. Thank you very much. But you guys have given me so much useful input, I don't even know where to begin to respond, lol. But to that one cat, secure_lockdown, I am going to Monroe Community College starting this spring, then going to transfer to a 4-year school which I haven't decided for sure yet, but right now I am thinking Rochester Institute of Technology.

But what is the signifigance of Linux, I mean, I know it is an OS like Windows, but how come it has such a high demand for people certified in Linux, why is it preferred, and is it hard to learn? lol, again, bare with me here, I have no formal certifications here and everything I learned I either learned on my own from messing around with PC's or my wife tried teaching to me but I was usually being too stubborn to pay attention or didn't work on it enough for it to stick to me.

But one thing I noticed from a couple of you guys, and what my sister, and my wife told me, cause they are both working in it, is to start off in technical support, but I was kind of not too thrilled with that idea cause both have told me the horror stories about dealing with idiot's and a**holes comlaining and being rude. But from listening to you guys telling me this, too, I guess it would be a great help in helping me learn all aspects and just deal with the BS.

But from what I am gathering here, I should place a big emphassis on courses such as criminology and psychology, which I was figuring before since I know or have heard that there is a profiling process in tracking down hackers, and that I also need to learn courses that will teach me the judicial and legislative aspects of it as well. But what I am also hearing is some saying not to concern myself too much with programning, and others saying I need to concentrate on that, which I am guessing I should stay up to date with it in this every changing world or get left in the dust. Also, as I learn more and as school goes on, will they tell me when and what courses I need to take such as criminology, psychology, computer security/forensic investigations, and linux forensics, to do what I want to do, or am I gonig to have to pretty much figure that out on my own? And what other forensic courses do I need to look for or should I take?

And how far in depth am I or would I have to go with the criminology and psychology? I mean, I am not going to have to get an associates or bachelors in those, am I? Or might I have to over time? And of those courses, are there any that go specifically toward computer security? I mean, I would rather not have to learn about chronic bed wetting or the mind of a serial killer, but then again, I guess it all plays a part of it, and if I have to know it then I have to know it.

And if I was to or decided I wanted to work for the FBI or CIA tracking down terrorist groups or cyber-terrorists, and contacted them, what should I ask them or say to them? I want to track down terrorists and cyber-terrorists and what are your prerequisites for me to getting into that area of your agency? Or would I just ask them what their prerequisites are for getting in, period? Cause I have talked to an FBI agent before at a job fair they had near my base at Camp Pendleton cause I wanted to do HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) at one point in time, and was told that I need a four-year degree no matter what you want to do there.

This website will ban me for asking bad questions?

But again, I thank all who have taken the time to provide their input and opinions, and for baring with me. I spent this past year and a quarter of last living in the Philippines with my then girlfriend, now wife where we opened up an internet cafe, which are really big over there, which she pretty much ran cause she's got a BS in Computer Science, but she tried to teach me things like reformatting a computer and networking, but I didn't apply myself then, cause I still wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to do. Decided I missed the US, and it was taking too long for me to get into school there, sold the shop, moved back here in mid-October, and now know that this is what I want to do because it has always interested me. But again, much thanks for helping me get my foot in the door, and for your patience, time and cooperation to all you who have provided insight.

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This website will ban me for asking bad questions?

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You seem to be reasonably intelligent, and your questions so far are well thought out. Make sure you post in the correct forums and you shouldn't have any problems.

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And how far in depth am I or would I have to go with the criminology and psychology? I mean, I am not going to have to get an associates or bachelors in those, am I?

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Psych, no. Criminology/Criminal Justice, I would say continue through your licensing...so probably. Once again it's a matter of 'what do THEY want?' - by all means go to the company or agency you're intending to apply to and ask them!

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But what is the signifigance of Linux

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Linux is the os that's most popular with those who are 'in the know' on things. It's also one of the easiest platforms from which to conduct operations along the lines of what you'll be doing. It's quite similar to Unix, with a few variations. The shining glory of Linux is that everything is open-source, meaning you can custom tailor your programs to fit your needs. It's not too overly difficult to learn, provided command line doesn't scare you. Even if it does somewhat, Linux has built-in GUI's to help ease the transition, but ultimately you'll need to learn the command-line end of it to be effective.

Hope that helped!

[edit] spotted this one on re-read:

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Or would I just ask them what their prerequisites are for getting in, period?

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Yes. CIA/FBI both have recruiters very much like the Corps did. The trick is finding them - your first step should be to visit their website (cia.gov or fbi.gov) and email them. I would put it like - "I'm wanting to train for a position in cybercrimes enforcement/forensics, and would very much like to join (CIA/FBI) on completion. What courses would best suit your requirements?" [/edit]

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Originally posted here by Outer_Heaven
But what is the signifigance of Linux, I mean, I know it is an OS like Windows, but how come it has such a high demand for people certified in Linux,

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whoever told you that is trying to sell you education. Linux/Unix/*nix are very hands on and knowledgable breed of IT person - they have very little time for marketing mumbo jumbo - which unfortunatly - IT certifications ARE. they have no bearing on your ability to do the job. I posses them only to get past HR screeners - but I still have to fight with both hands and feet to prove my abilities to senior IT staff i don't know.

please refer to my post in ICertify re: Linux certification.

http://www.icertify.net/index.php?na...ewtopic&t=2498

from reading the rest of you post - i think you might want to focus on computer forensices etc areas - particularly with local police departments. it a specialized skill set and job type.

SL

http://www.nsa.gov

I plan to apply to the NSA after college, I've wanted to work for them since I was 11 or 12. It's just always been of real interest to me.

Although you may not want to specifically apply for the NSA (which you can do online), you can find requirements and other such things on the site.

A_T

PS, if you have a dial-up connection, click the link to view the HTML site, not the flash site.

Hey, you guys have been great man. You've all been a very big help to me. I've learned more and gotten more information from you guys in the last two days than I have in the past month and a half of really trying to gather up information and knowledge to try and get me on the right track of doing exactly what it is that I want to do, including using career councilors and advisor's at the college I am about to attend.

And much thanks to those who provided the links to those agency websites and for helping me format my questions for their prerequisites. I will get on that tonight and email the spooks and post what they have told me, whenever they respond, to bounce it off you guys to see what you think of it, if it makes sense or not and for any additional input you might have.

And I went through all the information that was provided here and wrote down all the stuff I didn't know, understand, or have a clue about, and checked out a couple other forums posted and did the same, so, I'm gonna be google usin mofo looking up all the things I wrote down. But, I'll research whatever it is I'm looking up, if it brings up something else I don't understand or am not clear about, I'll research that, too, all the way down until I grasp the concept of it, and if I still don't understand, you'll hear from me.

One other thing I was wondering about, that I have always known or heard about but don't totally comprehend, I mean, this is a vague question, but is just something that I wanted to be made more clear to me is, I know math is a huge part of computers and in programming languages and such, but how is math and numbers and equations and formulas then turned into data. How far in math will I have to go for what it is that I am going to do? How does Math 160 &161 Statistics I & II fit in to this and what is it? I am looking at the course description right now, and can grasp an idea of what it has to do with, and it says minitab statistical software will be uses, which makes me feel some what relieved.

And about this AO site, how do they award you points here? Based on what?

the most i use math for my work is binary for subnetting and the usual excel stuff. sometime i do stats comparisons on performance, bandwidth throughput, disk usage - but not often.

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And about this AO site, how do they award you points here? Based on what?

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Its a popularity contest based on your posts, your avatar, how sexy you look in your profile, how funny your signature is, blah blah blah...

Math - In the most basic terms, a computer is nothing more than a grouping of switches. Each switch has 2 positions - On, represented by one, and Off, represented by zero. We use binary (base 2 mathematics) in computer science to describe this. A 1 or a Zero is one bit. 8 bits of information creates 1 byte. From there it gets interesting because the different combinations that comprise one byte of code can equal a character, and you get into code strings after it. Learn or brush up on counting in base 2, and in base 16 (hexadecimal), which is our other mathematics, usually used when discussing specific memory locations, or working in or with assemblers.

The math courses you'll be required to take to earn your degree will help you in other terms as well, in that they teach you logic, and problem solving, both of which are essential in the IT field. Statistics is a wonderful thing to know if you ever get into programming (you will, I promise, no matter what path in IT you choose). It helps in understanding what is needed to accomplish certain tasks within a program (counters and loops, and conditional statements just to name a couple). Remember that only the computer speaks hex and binary, and whatever programming language you'll be working in will handle the translation to those things for you, so you'll only worry about straight math/algebraic equations depending on what you've set out to accomplish, but to get the degree, you'll have to know them at least well enough to count.

Don't sweat the math too much however. I know it's a real bitch going from the real world back to school, and remembering all those things you had to learn in HS, and re-learning how to study. The college you'll be attending does too. If need be, take a remedial math course or three until you get back up to speed, I promise your GI bill won't run out before you finish.

AP's - I award ap's for things that mark as 'outstanding' in my point of view. Since I'm not a newbie, but not yet a senior member, my ap's count in the middle range. You can usually tell the amount of ap's a person can award by the number of dots by their name. Since there's a new option of only partially agreeing with someone, I can vary the amount of ap's I assign by changing the option in the ap assignment box. (I agree only 50 percent, so they only get half the ap's I can award.... or, they were only half an idiot, so I'll only neg them 3 instead of 6). Depending on how many ap's you have now, you'll either award a maximum of 1 or zero ap's should you decide to do so. As your ap's accumulate, you'll get more to award.

This leads to an interesting question I've never encountered, however... Someone who's close to being banned has red dots by their name. Does this mean that when they neg someone it awards positive ap's, or do they just award zero?

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they just award zero

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BlackIce, were you prior military? Well, I can't get this or don't know how to get this quote thing to work and I'm afraid if I do what I was about to do I'll resubmit this whole forum. But yeah, it sure is a shock going back to school after all these years. It's like every where I go I keep thinking, wow, civilian life, everyone seems so laid back, on their own program, doing whatever they want to do, dressing how they want to dress, no rules and regulations, dragging their feet when they're walking, walking slouched over and mumbling when they talk. LOL, and when I see this, I mean I heard it before, but it is like everytime I see this, that is when I realize how really brainwashed I have become. I don't know, probably just the military's thing, or at least the Corps thing on anti-individuality. But it's cool and still shocks me when I see this cause I am still in a state of disbelief to the ammount of freedom I have and am like, Wow, you mean I can just go and do that? I don't have to request permission and I won't get my ass handed to me? If I don't want to do something I can just tell them no? lol But my first opinion of college was, and still is cause I been going there talking to career councilor and advisors and took the placement test, it looks just like Fin high school cause you got your homies hangin out with the homies, the freaks hangin with the freaks, and your pretty girls hangin with the pretty girls, and I was just like, jesus, I guess the sh dont change.

But anyway, yeah, that is what I am going to have to do, start back with refresher courses for math. I took the practice placement exam for the school I'm going to that I got offline and was like, damn, I lost more than I thought I would have since I last been in HS, cause the only algebra or formulas I have done since leaving HS was for adjusting impacts of artillery rounds and hight-of-burst. But I did a lot better than I thought I was going to do when I took the actual test. So, I am having to start off in elementary algebra, but hey, at least I aint starting off with one plus one's and two times two's, lol.

So basically math in computers is like learning a foriegn language, which is one thing that comes fairly easy for me. At one point I knew four languages real well, including how to read, write and speak in Korean, and started learning to read Arabic over in Iraq thanks to a translator, so, I think I will be able to pick up programming languages, too. I guess in a way it is the same concept in the sense that it has set patterns and rules, and if those rules are borken it would cause the computer to mess up, because the computer wouldn't be able to understand what it's being told to do, does that sound about right?

But how would you actually apply straight math and algebraic equations to fix a problem? And what kinds of problems could it fix, for example. Like if there was something wrong with a computer, how would you determine it needed an algebraic equation to fix it, and are there set equations for each problem or area or groups of problems, or do you start with a general idea of what that equation might or should be, then start tweaking numbers and stuff then trying to apply and reapply the solution you came up with until it works. Or do they have software that will tell you what the equation should be, and you try it, and if it doesn't work go back and mess with it till it does work? And where in the computer would you acutally go to and type in this equation or formula to make it work right again? Does it actually look like an algebraic equation like ab(c3 X xy) +2= 14, and do you enter it in as such, or does it look something like those number and characters you get when you open a corrupted file or something? Where in a windows OS would I go to do this. I mean, I'm not gonna go entering stuff or messing with crap I don't know, I've crashed a couple computers before at that internet cafe I had, lol, and had to have our techs come bail me out, so I've learned that lesson. I was just wondering where it is and what it looked like on a windows OS.

I did send those emails out to the CIA and NSA, tried looking for anything, any address I could contact the FBI for an inquiry, ran around their website and links to local agencies, but found no address specifically for the FBI whatsoever. Finally found a link to the Regional Computer Forensics Laboratory, which I guess is a part of or works for the FBI, found an email for the RCFL, so I sent them an email add. So, now I guess I gotta wait for them to respond which I can only guess how long that will take. When you want something or need something from the gov., they'll take their sweet ass time, but if they want something or need something from you, man do they run.

Lotta questions - Let's see if I can hit 'em one by one. Please understand that I'm not by any means omnipotent - there's a TON of techies here with much better skills than mine, but here goes.

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BlackIce, were you prior military?

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Yes. Ex-Navy. Check my profile. Eldest son in the corps in Iraq right now.

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It's like every where I go I keep thinking, wow, civilian life, everyone seems so laid back, on their own program, doing whatever they want to do, dressing how they want to dress, no rules and regulations, dragging their feet when they're walking, walking slouched over and mumbling when they talk.

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Absolutely! Transition out of the military just kinda sucks - you've been amped up for anything, plus under military discipline for the past 4 years at least. Enjoy watching the civvies run amok and keep those organizational skills. One thing I laugh at to this day is the haircuts - mine's still high and tight to this day, tighter in fact because my hairline's receding, and I laugh my ass off at the mullets running around. What *really* tweaked me though was a trip to Orlando before they closed the RTC there - went over to the old mall where the fresh-boot squiddies hang out and watched them all run around in their ice-cream whites all in step and stuff... 12 years after the service I still get a chuckle at the way things happen out in the civvie world.

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I can't get this or don't know how to get this quote thing to work

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Easy fix - I'll teach ya quicklike - type squarebracket quote squarebracket. Copy in whatever you're quoting. At the end, type squarebracket /quote squarebracket. (I'd show this but it'd just put what I'm typing out into a box.)

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Wow, you mean I can just go and do that?

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Hell yes! Moreso, you can do it with pride and brag since you fought for our freedoms. Enjoy the VA benefits - you'll never buy meds again. Toughest thing for me to do to this day is to stand up at a Veteran's day celebration. For some weird reason I just can't get it into my head that they're celebrating me riding a ship for 4 years, and occasionally shooting the odd towel-head.

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LOL, and when I see this, I mean I heard it before, but it is like everytime I see this, that is when I realize how really brainwashed I have become.

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Nah. Brainwashing is for those who don't have brains enough to resist it. You were socially modified for the tasks the Marines needed you for, and to be a clean cut socially acceptable human being. This puts you far above 90 percent of American civilians (they're all a grungy lot for the most part... remember 'maggots'? You were one once.). Hang onto that discipline, and retain your training as much as possible - it'll help you in the long run.

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I took the practice placement exam for the school

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One tip here - CLEP everything!!!! It's free or reduced cost to you since you're a vet - and it gets you out of the bullshit classes if you pass it. Think of it as a 'get out of english free' card... If you're unsure what a CLEP exam is, ask around at the registrar's office.

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I guess in a way it is the same concept in the sense that it has set patterns and rules, and if those rules are borken it would cause the computer to mess up, because the computer wouldn't be able to understand what it's being told to do, does that sound about right?

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Yes. A computer is an absolute moron. Think of it as a pfc - does exactly what you tell it to do, and nothing more. On learning the languages - it's not too difficult. I very strongly recommend taking a 'computer logic' or flowcharting course if your college offers one - once you learn how to flowchart, you can program in any language - it's all a matter of syntax, which you can look up in the manuals.

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But how would you actually apply straight math and algebraic equations to fix a problem?

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Simple to do, less simple to explain to one not familiar with programming, but here goes -

Let's say I want a program to repeat a step a certain number of times -
I use a counter statement - this means that I assign a variable a value, then have the computer add 1 (or whatever increment I want it to count at) until it gets to a higher value. You can have them count by 5's, 10's, even negatives if you so desire. Basic algebra but in a bastardized form known to programmers as X = X + 1... meaning, "Hey, idiot! Take the value of X, whatever it is, and add 1 to it!"

Another interesting aspect of working in simple programming is the ability to crunch numbers en masse, and extremely rapidly.. let's look at that counter, and add some changes to it -

I have this file. It contains a list of 100 numbers, one, two, and three digits long.
If the number is a single digit, I want to multiply it by 10
If it's a double digit, I want to divide it by 2.
If it's a triple digit, I want to subtract 50.

Ok, so first we look at the file and say "ok, we gotta look at 100 numbers" and we tell the computer that x = 0, and to do it's little x=x+1 until x = 100.

Then we assign 'if' statements - telling the computer to look at the number's length, not it's value, and put it into the correct 'slot'.

Then we do our math and have it output to file, screen, printer, whatever.

Again, simple math, plus a bit of algebra. You'll learn more on this in your programming course, I truly don't want this post to be 50 pages long. :cool:

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Or do they have software that will tell you what the equation should be, and you try it, and if it doesn't work go back and mess with it till it does work? And where in the computer would you acutally go to and type in this equation or formula to make it work right again? Does it actually look like an algebraic equation like ab(c3 X xy) +2= 14, and do you enter it in as such, or does it look something like those number and characters you get when you open a corrupted file or something?

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You have to know the math. Sorry, no shortcuts there - if you're crunching numbers, you'll need the equations. Most of them are simple enough though, and the ones you use for counting, etc, you get worked into your brain so well you never forget them. Yes, it looks like an algebraic equation if that's what you're after. Remember, you're God to the machine, so what you want done is what it will try to do... it just falls to you to tell the machine how to do it correctly.

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found no address specifically for the FBI whatsoever

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Try calling the FBI directly and asking for a recruiter - there's a local number in your phone book I'm sure.

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When you want something or need something from the gov., they'll take their sweet ass time, but if they want something or need something from you, man do they run.

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Yep, 'hurry up and wait.'

Hope that helped!

Okay, let me give this quote thing a try.

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Yes. Ex-Navy. Check my profile. Eldest son in the corps in Iraq right now.

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For some strange reason I miss ship life. Was that your ship in your profile that had that gun turret explode? I remember that. I used to work with Aeigis-class destroyers, calling in 5"/54's naval gunfire. I was fortunate enough to get do a call for fire with a 16" when I first joined. Volkswagon launchers we used to call them. You should see on the impact end those things exploding, and some pieces of the shrapnel were big as my torrso, from my waist to my head and razor sharp. But I believe the best birthday I'll ever have was when we were coming back from Afghanistan and we cut a square around the equator and the prime meridian, something that THEY said that no ship has done for 12 years at that point and they announced over the 1MC are coordinates as we passed each line. So not only did it just happen to happen on my birthday, I got to have my birthday two days in a row on the same day cause we were heading back to San Diego crossing the international date line AND they had a steel beach party that day AND I got to become a golden shell back, too. I was already a shell back for some time then, I miss wog day, initiating them dirty, nasty slimey wogs, lol. But I bet it has changed a lot since you been in though, now they got woman running all over the ships and everyone with a johnson trying to hit it no matter how ugly they are. They had some saying I can't quite remember, something about no matter how ugly they are, once they get out on ship them being princess' or something, but, it's true, lol. They had this one chick this one time on float, they called her the chow cow cause she monitorred the mess lines, and she was the size of an offensive lineman, about 6'5" at least 250lbs, they no sh had to have the covers to the ladder wells opened on one side of the ship cause she couldn't fit through the holes everyone else used. And they no sh had this $2000 pot for anyone who slept with her, but to prove they did, they had to get her panties and they had to have her name stamped in them. But no one ever won the pot, lol, thank God.

But where is your son at in Iraq? How long has he been there for? What unit is he with? I went in when the whole thing kicked off in March of last year with 3rd Light Armored Reconaisance Batallion. We moved so much and so fast I don't even know where I was besides Baghdad when we took and secured a bridge over the Tigris. Other than that, I couldn't tell ya. We were either in front of the division or in front of the whole coalition forces at any given time. Yeah, I know what you're saying about the veteran's day parades and stuff. When I go to a bar or something, people are always telling me thank you, and I feel embarrassed, cause I either tell them or am thinking, Man, don't thank me, I was more than happy to go blast those rag heads after what they did to our country.

But anyway, God bless your son and tell him I said Semper Fi.

I got a reply from the NSA yesterday, miracle, only one day, but still haven't heard from the rest of the spooks. But the NSA only said that they would recommend I check out their website for jobs, requirements, and the educational opportunities. Well, no sh, how do you think I got your email address and why do you think I am still writing you? Then they said they would recommend I talk to my academic advisor for courses that offer me the best qualifications for positions I am interested in. So, basically they weren't any help. So if anyone out here knows what courses I should take that would help me get a job tracking down terrorist groups who use the internet, and cyber terrorists, can you let me know?

But I was able to find a number for a local FBI housing agency, so, I'll give them a call.

Yeah, that math makes some sense to me, but as you said, I need to take computer programming courses for it to be totally clear to me, but I'm sure I'll be able to understand it, it doesn't seem too difficult for the most part, but I'm sure it can be.

How does computer forensics work? I mean, how after you delete information and clear cookies, history, etc. is it still there and how and where are they able to locate it on your hard drive, and where would I go to totally erase it, if that is even possible. Or does the hard drive keep it permanately so it can't be completely erased. lol, don't worry, I aint doing nothing I'm not supposed to, I was just wondering how that works, and if even after you clear your browser, can someone else still access stuff like my account numbers, pins, passwords and social security numbers, and what can I do to make those completely safe or erased after I am done using them?

And again, where would I go specifically in an OS to enter equations to tell the computer to do something. What and where is it that you are looking at when you do this, or do you need to install special software for this? And where do investigators go on your hard drive to find the history of the PC, or do they take it to their office and hook it up to another computer that has special software?

Hey, my quote thing worked.

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I plan to apply to the NSA after college, I've wanted to work for them since I was 11 or 12. It's just always been of real interest to me.

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AxxessTerminated, what is it that you wanted to do for the NSA and what were you able to find out from them or from your school such as what courses to take? Or did you find all the info you needed on their website?

Yes, Iowa was the one with the turret explosion. 4-19-89.

Not sure exactly where my son is - near fallujah was the best I could get out of him. We get a cell call occasionally, so he's obviously getting R&R some.

But this thread isn't about military, it's about you choosing your education...

Forensics - ask in that forum. I have very little experience in that sort of arena, but I'd love to learn it as well. There most certainly are tools out there that let you piece together deleted information on a machine...even if the hdd's been physically destroyed. From what I've heard the only true way to be fully rid of something and make it untracable is to delete it, then reformat like 7 times or so, but again this could be just a rumor.

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And again, where would I go specifically in an OS to enter equations to tell the computer to do something. What and where is it that you are looking at when you do this, or do you need to install special software for this?

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This depends entirely on the OS... to get into this end, you've got to know what an OS is, and how it functions. In a basic sense, the operating system is the 'go between' for the disk and the processor on your computer. It interprets the data, and manages the programs on it so you can use them. It also makes sure the drivers for your peripherals are loaded, so that the processor can make them function properly. Certain os's will let you program in equations and such directly - in dos you just typed in the equation at the command prompt if it was simple math. For more involved equations you'll need to write a program in one of the various languages available. Those languages would be the 'special programs' you'd have to have in order to use them. There are also 'batch files', which are nothing more than rudimentary programs that you enter directly into the os to perform functions... using them correctly you can create menus (yes, this is how windows got started), do a bit higher level equations, and even have 'decisions' made based on user input. Depending on the power of the OS you can do more complicated things - in Unix and Linux, you can chain programs, having the output of one become the input of the next, etc., and get into some really complicated stuff. That particular example is doable in dos too, but it's a much more involved process.

hope those helped.

Talk to hogfly about forensics. He's probably the best on this forum.

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But this thread isn't about military, it's about you choosing your education...

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I know brother, it is just good to finally be able to talk to someone I can relate with after all this time.

But all that is done in DOS? I didn't think they even really used that anymore. I remember that from like, the 80's n crap, when I was about 11 years old, or maybe even younger. like: copyC:\porn\outer_heavens porn\*.* A:\outer_heaven\outer_heavens porn\*.* and what that is saying is copy from the c:, subdirectory porn, subdirectory outer_heavens porn, all files, to A drive, subdirectory outer_heaven, subdirectory outer_heavens porn, all files, but I think you don't need that all files command at the end. Damn, I remembered all that from almost 20 years ago.

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Talk to hogfly about forensics. He's probably the best on this forum.

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Okay man, I'll send him a message as soon as I can

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But all that is done in DOS? I didn't think they even really used that anymore.

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Dos hasn't been a widely used O/S since winME, but if you look deeply behind the curtains that pop up on starting a winME/98/95 machine, you'll see good old Dos 6.2 loading up first. Even now in the days of NTFS where windows is actually its own operating system, you have a 'command interpreter' available to you for dos oriented commands - it isn't truly dos anymore, but it emulates it quite nicely (so long as you don't try to do any of the high power stuff within it.)

Yes, your copy commands will still work. It's easier to just drag/drop from windows explorer, but it can still be done manually. (I do that particular commandset quite often being the avid Dos games fanatic I am - helps loading when windows doesn't want to let you install in the first place.)

/me looks longingly at the old 'Dos 5.0' masters he's got sitting up on his shelf and signs off to go play a bit on his dos gaming machine...

I just just went to the college I am going to start at to register for courses, and talked to the head of the IT department at the college. And he told me that as of right now they don't offer any degrees specifically for Computer Secutiry, but that there is a work in progress to start that this fall semester of 2005. Which was fine with me, I guess, cause of my math score on my placement test I took, I have to start off in Elementary Algebra w/ Geometry to bring myself up to speed for the math that they start with in IT. So, I can't enroll in the IT course right away, and was supposed to start off in Liberal Arts and Sciences. But when I talked to the head of the IT department and explained to him my situation, he told me to talk to this other lady tomorrow and that she can get me to start off TK01, whatever that is, because he said when it comes time for me to transfer into IT, there will be less of a problem and that they will be able to work with me better.

My first question is, what do I do about the computer security thing at the school? Will a certificate be sufficient enough for me to continue on more in-depth in Computer Security in what I wanted to do? This college I am about to start is a two-year community college that prepared you for transfer to a four-year college upon completion, which is what I wanted to do anyway. Should I, if they don't give me the chance to go too in depth in Computer Security there, just get my associate's degree there and then will I be able to go into a course that is all about computer security? Or do they even offer courses at four year colleges that are all about or based specifically on computer security?

I mean, I know I should be asking this to advisor's or whatever, and I did, I asked that guy, and told him I am trying to pick out specific courses in IT because I wanted to go into Computer Security, either working for a company or something, protecting their databases from hackers n such, corporate espionage, or, work for the governtment tracking down terrorist groups such as Al Quida who use the internet or cyberterrorists, and that I want to take courses that will groom me specifically for such positions, and he told me to go down the road, where there is this four-year school called Rochester Institute of Technology, and that I should ask them because they might have recommendations for specific courses for me to take and what I should start of in now so I can start working my way toward my objective. But the problem is I am running out of time. And they are busy trying to register other students and sitting down and talking with them, which I understand, but I was hoping he would be able to help me out a little more than that. But at least he said he could switch me into a better course to start out in that will help me transfer over into IT easier. I'll ask that lady tomorrow what TK01 is about, I didn't want to take up too much of his time.

Yes, follow what your advisor outlines - whatever TK101 may be, it'll surely help. Even if it's a blow-off 'intro to computers' course, you can always look at it from the perspective that it's an easy A.

Suggestion number two is to check into your college's accreditation - will their degrees and certificates transfer to other colleges/universities? If so, you have nothing to fear by only getting a certificate, so long as you plan on pursuing it further later on.

Suggestion three - which you haven't brought up yet - is the 'dirty work' involved in getting set up financially for school. GI bill is a nice stipend to keep groceries in the refrigerator while you're in school, but you'll want more help - here's how...

www.fafsa.ed.gov

This is the federal site which allows you to fill out and turn in your "financial aid form" - that magic form which gets you your pell grant. Use it!

Also be sure to stop in at financial aid at the college - tell them you're a vet and ask to speak to their veteran's counselor - all colleges are required to have one. They'll help you get set up for GI bill by giving you the forms you'll need to fill out, starting your file there at the college (and make you fetch in a copy of your DD-214 among other documents), and also help with any other financial aid needs you might have. I'm not sure about how things are in your area, but with GI bill and Pell Grant alone, I was able to go through 4 years of school without needing an outside job, covering all tuition, books, and living expenses.

Luck to you!

[edit] On double-checking the link, I found it'd changed in the several years since I've been back to school. I've changed it to the correct link now. [/edit]

[addedit] Get that FAF done ANORS! (as of now or sooner, all you non-military types). It takes about 12 weeks for Uncle Sugar to get you lined up for Pell after you've submitted it and it's been approved. [/addedit]

i believe the best course of action to take is the intro to linux, but also take that computer science course. when i *was* in college the courses they were teaching were MS vc++ (yuck) and assembler and some database stuff. with that general knowledge you can go on to bigger and better things in my opinion, since c,c++ and assembler are used for a LOT of things these days. combined with linux/unix experience you should have no problems in the security etc area.

Well, I finally found the answer to my prayers a couple weeks ago. After getting distraught at the school and at the government agencies I was looking into, I checked the website of the four-year school I am transfering to, and this time I found exactly what I was looking for. They are offering a Masters in Computer Security and Information Assurance. I checked their website before and they weren't offering it, and some of the courses are still under developement. The requirement is a Bachelors in Computer Science, Software Engineering, IT, or a few other computer related fields, then you can transfer into their computer security and information assurance program.

Because of my math score on my placement test, I have to start off in a technologies program, then once my math is up to speed, I can transfer over into IT. But I was wondering if IT is good enough for me to start in to get me into computer security, or if one of those other two programs, Computer Science or Software Engineering would be better for me to take and to then transfer over to in IT. Which of those three would best prepare me, or won't it matter? I am thinking it won't matter cause anyone can come from any one of those fields and once they get there that program will teach what is needed then, but I was just wondering if there would be a better program for me to go into than IT, or is IT going to be good enough for me for now?

This is the link Computer Security and Information Assurance program I liked at the four-year school I wanted to transfer to, so, I was also wondering I could get some feed back about the core courses it has itself, and what you guys think of it, whether it seems good to go or not. Thank you much

http://www.cs.rit.edu/~hpb/Scia/index.html