Dowloading Legal or not?

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February 7th, 2005, 06:40 PM
Black Cluster

Dowloading Legal or not?

The Internet is now one of the main aspects in the modern life, as well as one of the most things that affected the general lifestyle, by making things by far easier to fulfill and more likely to be achieved, like transferring money, buying thigns from foreign markets, gaining knowledge,, and so on and so forth.

Everyday we check our emails and seek information to improve our work experience and performance. We almost spend big portion of our time navigating through the cyberspace.
Without making it long:

When seeking information we come accross so many books and referncess that catch our attention and attract us to download them. We do download them, even though they are not being downloaded from the real source's website {or the owner's website} of this file {The owner of the file does not offer this downlodable fiel}. Is this legal?

At the first sight, it sounds completely legal since there is one out there holds the cmoplete liability for publishing the material.

Sounds strange to ask such a question? Right! I might be a maniac! But....

How would you guys comment on this issue?

Inspired from the experience of downloading Mitnick's "The Art of Deception"

Cheers
February 7th, 2005, 07:05 PM
whatthe

A lot of places that have reference pieces (SANS, CERT etc) have their policy published so you know their view.

For a book on-line you could argue it is like going to the library and photocopying. Ease of copying and the fact it is on the internet (larger audience) will go against this arguement.

Based on this thread
http://www.antionline.com/showthread...hreadid=265818

The Art of Deception isn't available for sale for a few weeks. If that's true then the copy downloaded is probably illegal unless he and the publisher are giving away free copies.

Those are my thoughts.
February 7th, 2005, 07:20 PM
phishphreek

Quote:

Originally posted here by whatthe
The Art of Deception isn't available for sale for a few weeks. If that's true then the copy downloaded is probably illegal unless he and the publisher are giving away free copies.

Those are my thoughts.

I own the art of deception in paper format. Not sure if they released an ebook format.
The art of deception has been on sale for a long time now.

Maybe its the art of intrusion that you're thinking of?

Either way, I've found a lot of ebook dumps. Most of them are not legal.
February 7th, 2005, 07:24 PM
whatthe

Thanks for correcting me.
February 8th, 2005, 12:23 PM
Egaladeist

Black Cluster,

Are you asking if it's legal or ethical...because there's a difference. Some things that are legal may not be ethical, and some things that are ethical may not be legal.

In respect to books or reference materials found on the internet it depends upon whether or not the author has made it available for free public comsumption....whether you plan to use that material for your own private use, free public use ( such as publishing that material on a forum or website ), or for the purpose of resale.

If the author or owner of the material, for instance, a newspaper, decides to print articles on the net...by doing so they acknowledge that it will be available for free, and for general public consumption...or...if an author decides to publish his/her novel on the net and make it available in the same way...I would not consider it un-ethical to use that material for free public or private use.

Regardless of their policy or the legalities...if the author or owner of the material publishes it on the net they in effect acknowledge it is available for public use...whether intended or not.

As long as you do not try to profit from resale without their consent...and as long as you duly credit the author or owner of the material if you decide to also use it for public consumption I do not see an ethical conflict.

By contrast...it would not be ethical to purchase a book and then publish it on the net without the author or owners consent. If the author or owner makes it available on the net then it can reasonably be considered part of the public domain...whether or not that was intended.

I am, of course, only speaking of material placed in the public domain specifically for public use ( eg. if a newspaper publishes an article on the net they want the public to read the article, they want people to discuss the article, they want people to tell other people about the article, therefore they cannot expect that people will not also use the article ).
February 8th, 2005, 01:21 PM
Black Cluster

Egaladeist,

To some extentions, what is legal is definitly ethincal. Since it is not rational to legislate what is unethincal.

From your replies, I think you imply that if the auther did not consent or gave an explicit permission for the book to be for the public usage or consumption, it is by all means illegal and unethical.
February 8th, 2005, 01:41 PM
|3lack|ce

[offtopic injection]Sorry to do this radically offtopic thing, but reading Black Cluster's post just now HURT!

Black Cluster - it's not unethnical, it's unethical. Ethics is having to do with morality. Ethnics is having to do with one's race.

[/offtopic injection]

Now comes the question before the court - is it unethical to download a published book before it's scheduled release date? Absolutely unethical - it violates many, MANY of the clauses in the US Copyright laws (check Westlaw if you want to see the specifics, I shan't name them here.) It's also morally reprehensible after reviewing the fact that most authors rely on revenues and royalties from the legitimate sales of their books as their sole source of income. Of the (say 20 bucks US to make it easy, that's about the price of hardcovers these days) money you spend purchasing the actual book, the author receives about a dollar. The rest is completely absorbed by publisher's overhead and fees, advertising, and legal fees to get the copyright on the material. After the paperback is released, drop those royalties down to less than 10 cents per book sold. Just as in music (although the money in that industry is very different in it's distribution) downloading literature without paying for it is outright theft.

Often a publisher will release an early copy or copies of a work to various booksellers and good customers with high volume sales so that their employees may be well versed in its content and be able to carry on intelligent conversations with potential book buyers about the work. This (obviously since there's little or no need of it) doesn't occur in e-books, hence I believe the copy you somehow 'acquired' is either complete piracy of his work, or an older book with the name changed (you might have been tricked..).
February 8th, 2005, 03:17 PM
Egaladeist

Black Cluster,

What I impied...is what I said...if the author or owner of the material puts it out for display for the general publics use...they are in effect allowing it to be part of the public domain ( probably for advertising purposes ) and cannot expect the public to not use it...whether intended or not. Therefore it would be ethical to use such material as I described above...for non-commmercial purposes.

However, if the author or owner was not the one to put it on display for general public veiwing...then it would be un-ethical to use it.

As for your first statement...many laws past and present have/are indeed been/presently un-ethical...as I said... sometimes what is ethical is unlawful, or what is lawful is un-ethical.
February 8th, 2005, 06:05 PM
TheSpecialist

Im SO tired of this crap. Why are people tossing the word ethics around? Get hit with a clue. The internet is a medium not a planet. We create terms and relate things to whats happening in the world... in reality, beyond the text and images, one computer is signaling another. Nothing more. You can't tell me that data should be treated as phisical objects and online there is ethics and morality. Thats all bullcrap.
February 8th, 2005, 06:20 PM
Egaladeist

Specialist,

There's ethics involved in everything we do whether you agree with it, or think it's crap, or not. He asked and I answered...if you don't like the conversation then you have the choice to not participate.

Eg
February 9th, 2005, 01:24 AM
nihil

The Specialist,

Quote:

The internet is a medium not a planet

I think that you mean a "medium, not a society"?

The internet is actually very like a planet, in that it is an ENVIRONMENT. Now, an environment has no ethics or morals, which is what I think you are saying?............it is merely a place to exist.

It is societies that have morals ethics and laws. The only laws you will find in an environment are physics and perhaps, survival of the fittest?

The internet is multinational, which means multisocietal.............which in turn means different laws. Ethics and morality are really nothing to do with the internet as such, they are to do with individuals' personal feelings.

I agree that the internet seems to get the blame for a lot of things ............I would take the view that automobiles do not kill people...............bad drivers do.

Just my £0.02
February 9th, 2005, 02:04 AM
Egaladeist

Hi nihil,

But in terms of the question...downloading other people's stuff...I would think that you would agree that ethics does play a role...for instance, as an artist myself, I would find it unethical to download other people's artwork and resell it on my website...or copy the tutorials in this forum and publish a book...without the consent of the artist/authors...in terms of the question, I think ethics plays a significant role.

Eg
February 9th, 2005, 02:16 AM
nihil

Hi EG~

Quote:

as an artist myself, I would find it unethical to download other people's artwork and resell it on my website...

I agree, insofar as I do not believe in stealing other peoples' intellectual property. However what you are mentioning would also be a criminal offence over here in the UK (not just a civil breach of copyright offence).

My point was that I don't blame "the internet" as such. Copying videos, CDs, DVDs and tapes is just as wrong. I look on the internet as just another medium, as it is for other crimes such as fraud.

Basically I am a little wary of "knee jerk" politicians responding to powerful commercial lobbies........let's ban/restrict the internet.............tax this that and the other....................I think you know the sort of scenario I am afraid of, and why I play down "the internet" bit ;)
February 9th, 2005, 02:21 AM
Egaladeist

Definitely !! :)
February 9th, 2005, 04:42 AM
TheSpecialist

Quote:

as an artist myself, I would find it unethical to download other people's artwork and resell it on my website

Keep in mind that this would be something almost rather fruad related, sure. However, all the other stuff happening now days... do I give a crap? No! Also... JupM owns what you post here, every joke and every famous line. Didn't you know? I could be character development for a villian in a book. Boohoo... you think I feel cheated? Nope.

In many situations, I think humans should accept that they have no truely original thoughts but with acceptions of random patterns of chemical imbalances & previous experience... each mixed together to form ideas.
February 9th, 2005, 04:56 AM
Egaladeist

Hi The Specialist,

You know...for the most part I agree with what you just said...errrr...did I just say that?...nah...I must be having a nightmare ! :D

Peace

Eg
February 9th, 2005, 02:56 PM
Black Cluster

I do believe that ethics should be involved in every aspect of our life especially the Interenet. Otherwise, what will be the difference between a human being and an Animal. We will be more likely to be living in a jungle.

TheSpecialist, I think that you have said that it is Crap to talk about this, so why do u reply and waste your valuable time in replying to crap?.. Just Windering.
I don't think that you would love to see you copyrighted book or whatever be published and to see people take unwarranted advantage of your book, would you? I bet you will be happier if you saw more ethical people buynig your prodcut legally.

Egaladeist

Quote:

as an artist myself, I would find it unethical to download other people's artwork and resell it on my website

You are absolutely right!

Quote:

in reality, beyond the text and images, one computer is signaling another. Nothing more. You can't tell me that data should be treated as phisical objects and online there is ethics and morality. Thats all bullcrap.

I think you will be extremely happy to work for charity in the Internet world, won't you?
Yes, there is a lot of things that prevent you from acting illegally on the Internet, or Do you use your skills to make sabotage and vandalize the internet? I bet you don't, what holds you back?

Cheers
February 9th, 2005, 03:05 PM
Kite

I have found that when downloading anything off the Internet, using your best judgement is usually the best thing to do. If it seems like you are about to do something Illegal, you probably are. And before you download, find the website that acually owns the file and see what their policy is. Basically, what everyone else said above.
As to the ebook issue, as far as I know if you have already bought the book in paper format it is alright to download the ebook. Its just the same as ROMs.