US court bans juvenile executions

Hi,
Due to work commitments i haven't had as much time to post as i would like but seeing this I felt it could do with being posted. I didnt really realise that jueveniles were eligable for execution in the states. I thought that they couldnt even be sent to prision. :confused: .
Anyway what are your feelings on this.

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US court bans juvenile executions

Capital punishment for juveniles had been allowed in 19 states
The US Supreme Court has abolished the death penalty for those who commit murder when under the age of 18.
The court was divided on the issue, but voted 5-4 that the death penalty for criminals aged 16 and 17 should be declared unconstitutional.

The decision affects not only those convicted in future, but about 70 prisoners already on death row for offences committed before they were 18.

Anti-capital punishment campaigners claimed the decision as a victory.

"Now the US can proudly remove its name from the embarrassing list of human rights violators - that includes China, Iran, and Pakistan - that still execute juvenile offenders," said William Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA.

'No deterrent'

The highest US court upheld an earlier ruling by the Missouri Supreme Court, which banned the execution of people convicted of crimes they committed before turning 18.

The Missouri court said putting minors to death was a violation of the US constitution, which outlaws "cruel and unusual" punishment.

JUVENILE EXECUTION
19 states allow execution - only six have carried it out
227 juveniles sentenced to death since 1976
22 of them executed - 13 in Texas
More than 3,400 people on death row in total

That ruling overturned the death sentence given to Christopher Simmons, who was 17 when he kidnapped a neighbour, tied her up and threw her from a bridge to her death.

Simmons's attorney, Seth Waxman, said the death penalty did not deter minors, since "they weigh risks differently" to adults.

There are 19 states where capital punishment for juveniles is allowed.

But Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy, who voted for the ban, noted that even in these states the ultimate sanction was not often carried out.

He said the trend was to abolish the practice.

"Our society views juveniles... as categorically less culpable than the average criminal," he wrote.


Christopher Simmons will not now be executed

"The age of 18 is the point where society draws the line for many purposes between childhood and adulthood. It is, we conclude, the age at which the line for death eligibility ought to rest."

One of the court's dissenting judges, Sandra Day O'Connor, argued that: "Chronological age is not an unfailing measure of psychological development, and common experience suggests that many 17-year-olds are more mature than the average young 'adult'."

Tuesday's ruling follows several others that have limited the use of capital punishment.

In 1988, it was ruled that offenders who were younger than 16 when they committed their crimes could not be executed.

In 2002, the court banned the killing of offenders with mental disabilities.

Former US President Jimmy Carter and many foreign governments, including those of the European Union, were among those who had called on the US to end the juvenile death penalty.

Judge Kennedy said: "It is proper that we acknowledge the overwhelming weight of international opinion against the juvenile death penalty, resting in large part on the understanding that the instability and emotional imbalance of young people may often be a factor in the crime."

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BBc source

My thoughts on capital crime? I'm a Texan. Nuff said.

On the other hand - let's look at 'juvenile delinquency' for a moment, shall we? I submit that it is a severe misnomer. There are no juvenile delinquents - there are only delinquent parents. Perhaps we should, instead of banning juvenile executions for capital crimes, hold the juvenile *and* his parents culpable up to and including execution?

Case in point - this one went through the Texas courts about 10 years ago, and one of our local judges sat the case -

A 17 year old male broke into an elderly woman's house. He killed her, stole everything of value he could steal, and left her body to rot. 2 weeks later they found her. It was proven a capital crime from his statements (in the presence of his attorney) to the police. This young man was found guilty on both DNA evidence and his confession, and has subsequently been put to death.

[rant]I severely questioned the parenting ability of this young man's father and mother. Folks, loving a kid isn't enough. It's not enough to say 'now now, don't do that' then ignore your child. It's not enough to ground him after he's been caught fighting in school or in the streets. It's nowhere near enough to put him on juvenile probation or 'boot camp' after his 2nd armed robbery. Let us begin to point fingers at the parents as well as the kid - maybe if we put *their* fat arses through boot camp on the first minor offense, *they* will get the picture and raise their kids to be respectful, responsible citizens. I say make the punishment awarded be bourne by both the parents and the child, and every bit as tough as it would be on just one offender.[/rant]

Hi Muracu,

Capitol punishment is meant to punish teenagers who commit extra-ordinarily heinous crimes. Or I should say "was". In certain circumstances where the little psychos plan, note I said "plan", the destruction of an entire family and then carry it out, or kill their teachers at school etc. The court in the past has had the ability to treat them as an adult in the sense of criminal justice. By infering they acted as "adults". Here is the tally (from Justice Department)

Name, date of execution, state,race,age of crime, age of execution

Charles Rumbaugh 9/11/1985 Texas White 17 28
J.Terry Roach 1/10/1986 S. Carolina White 17 25
Jay Pinkerton 5/15/1986 Texas White 17 24
Dalton Prejean 5/18/1990 Louisiana Black 17 30
Johnny Garrett 2/11/1992 Texas White 17 28
Curtis Harris 7/1/1993 Texas Black 17 31
Frederick Lashley 7/28/1993 Missouri Black 17 29
Ruben Cantu 8/24/1993 Texas Latino 17 26
Chris Burger 12/7/1993 Georgia White 17 33
Joseph John Cannon 4/22/1998 Texas White 17 38
Robert A. Carter 5/18/1998 Texas Black 17 34
Dwayne A.Wright 10/14/1998 Virginia Black 17 26
Sean R. Sellars 2/4/1999 Oklahoma White 16 29
Christopher Thomas 1/10/2000 Virginia White 17 26
Steve E. Roach 1/19/2000 Virginia White 17 23
Glen C. McGinnis 1/25/2000 Texas Black 17 27
Gary L. Graham 6/22/2000 Texas Black 17 36

But world politics and changning political climates have induced serious discussion on the topic. Is it cruel to execute juveniles? The United Nations even goes so far as to discourage life in prison under the CRC. Since 1976 when the UN took the position that death sentences were a human rights violation to juveniles, they have asked the US repeatedly to retract the practice. Billy signed an agreement of sorts but it was never ratified in the senate. I have a hard time grasping the human rights of a perpetrator versus the rights of the person they killed. They have rights too, and were killed for the most stupid and petty of reasons. Especially if the victims were also children, then the rights of their parents come into factor - regardless if they were 17 or 18 at the time they kill. Lets take a current death row member Derek Guillen; he kidnapped, then raped a woman. After he was finished he killed her. She was in her 50's. A grandmother of some family. The act of a child? **** no. Or Bruce Lee - he car jacked a 24 year old Asian American as she went about her day. He raped and then murdered her. Took her life, played god after he broke her. Kids playing? No way... However, if the age of suffrage is to be the deciding factor - so be it. Even though in my mind these are crimes very adult in nature. Take another listed below, 17 years old - rapes and murders a 14 year old girl and then another who is 16!! Where is the real injustice here and how can it be solved?

The US takes a lot of punches regarding our human rights violations on the global scale of morality and our application of the death penalty versus the breakdown of certain segments of our society. I can't help but do a little research and wonder where they would draw the line under similar circumstance?

List from texas of those not yet terminated.

TEXAS

Alvarado, Steven Brian: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 26 (DOB:8-11-74); robberies and murder of adult Latin male and adult Latin female in El Paso on 9-22-91; sentenced on 10-5-93.

Arroyo, Randy: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 21 (DOB:10-31-79); kidnaping and murder of Latin male age 39 on 3-11-97 in San Antonio; sentenced on 3-6-98.

Arthur, Mark Sam: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 21 (DOB: 8-1-79); murder of Latin male age 41 in Harris County on 12-21-96; sentenced on 12-17-97

Avila, Jr. Rigoberto: Latin male; info not released

Barraza, Mauro Morris: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 28 (DOB: 5-5-72); murder of white female age 73 in Haltom City (Tarrant County) on 6-14-89; sentenced on 4-8-91.

Beazley, Napoleon: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 8-5-76); robbery and murder of white male age 63 in Dallas (Dallas County) on 4-19-94; sentenced on 3-21-95.

Bernal, Johnnie: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 8-20-76); murder of white (?) male age 19 in Houston on 8-19-94; sentenced on 5-8-95.

Capetillo, Edward Brian: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 23 (DOB: 5-13-77); murder of white male age 19 and white female age 20 in Harris County on 1-16-95; sentenced on 2-6-96.

Cobb, Raymond Levi: White male; age 17 age at crime and now age 25 (DOB: 6-18-1976); murder of white female age 23 and infant female in Huntsville (Walker County) on 12-27-93; sentenced on 2-27-97.

Dewberry, John Curtis: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 23 (DOB: 1-30-77); murder of white male age 57 in Beaumont (Jefferson County) on 12-25-94; sentenced on 11-21-96.

Dickens, Justin Wiley: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 7-28-76); murder in Randall County on 3-12-94; sentenced on 5-17-95.

Dixon, Anthony Jerome: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 11-7-76); robbery and murder of white female age 34 in Houston (Harris County) on 5-15-94; sentenced on 2-8-95.

Guillen, Derek: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 20 (DOB: 10-20-80); robbery, rape and murder of female age 51 in Tempe on 3-26-98; sentenced on 6-1-99.

Johnson, Eddie C.: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 22 (DOB: 11-26-78); robbery and murder of white male age 42 in Fort Worth on 3-6-96; sentenced on 7-31-97.

Jones, Anzel Keon: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 22 (DOB: 2-4-78); murder of black female age 49 in Grayson County on 5-2-95; sentenced on 6-4-96.

Jones, T.J.: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 11-1-76); robbery and murder of elderly male in Gregg County on 2-2-94; sentenced on 12-16-94.

Little, Leo Gordon: White male; age 17 at crime and now age 20 (DOB: 7-14-80); kidnaping, robbery and murder of Latin male age 22 in San Antonio on 1-22-98; sentenced on 3-5-99.

Lopez, Michael Anthony, Jr.: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 19 (DOB: 4-28-81); murder of male age 25 (deputy constable) in Harris County on 9-29-98; sentenced on 5-25-99.

Mitchell, Gerald Lee: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 33 (DOB: 12-27-67); murder of white male adult in Harris County on 6-4-85; sentenced on 4-12-86.

Monterrubio, Jose Ignacio: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 24 (DOB: 8-6-76); rape and murder of Latin female age 17 in Brownsville (Cameron County) on 9-5-93; sentenced on 8-25-94.

Patterson, Toronto: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 23 (DOB: 10-17-77); murder of black female age 3 (along with female age 6 and female age 25) in Dallas on 6-6-95; sentenced on 11-21-95.

Perez, Efrian: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 25 (DOB:11-19-75); rape and murder of white female age 14 and Latin female age 16 in Houston (Harris County) on 6-24-93; sentenced on 9-22-94.

Soriano, Oswaldo Regaldo: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 25 (DOB: 6-26-75); robbery and murder of adult male in Amarillo on 11-17-92; sentenced on 5-4-94.

Springsteen, IV Robert: White male;

Tran, Son: Asian-American male; age 17 at crime and now age 20; murder of Latin male adult and Asian-American male age 20 in Houston on 10-25-97; sentenced on 12-18-00.

Villareal, Raul Omar: Latin male; age 17 at crime and now age 25 (DOB: 9-25-75); rape and murder of white female age 14 and Latin female age 16 in Houston (Harris County) on 6-24-93; sentenced on 9-22-94.

Williams, Bruce Lee: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 19 (DOB: 12-16-81); car-jacking, rape and murder of Asian-American female age 24 in Dallas on 2-3-99; sentenced on 12-10-99.

Williams, Nanon McKewn: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 26 (DOB: 8-2-74); murder of white male age 19 in Harris County on 5-4-92; sentenced on 9-22-95.

Wilson, Geno Capoletti: Black male; age 17 at crime and now age 19 (DOB: 5-24-81); robbery and murder of male age 19 in Houston on 12-2-98; sentenced on 12-10-99

Ma'm yes-ma'm ma'm. Sir yes-sir sir. Those kids come out of those boot camps a total 180. I think it's a waste of human life and money to execute offenders that were minors ( though I don't think any have been executed before 18). I think they should be forced into some type of special military program where they can be productive, learn skills and perhaps protect assets and territories of the US.
BTW A juvenile murdered my great grandmother and is/was sitting on DR.

China Iran etc.... are shooting kids under 18. To my knowledge nobody here has been executed under 18 but I might be wrong.

The leading site to read about DP info in America.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...id=204&scid=27
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...id=205&scid=27

A child learns what they see/live everyday. You show me the homelife statistics of these kids, and I bet in the process, you'll see children who have been abused, who have lived in homes without proper adult supervision, without the love they need to grow up well-adjusted. Homes where crime is a way of life. Homes where parents are in prison. I'm not excusing the action, nor am I saying that all childhood crimes are committed by kids with bad parents. However, I'm certain that the number who did commit crimes and issue from a bad home are much higher than the ones who come from stable homes.

Saying that a child (and despite Ms. O'Connor's statement, scientifically speaking, children at the age of 17 are still growing and learning and maturing) is completely responsible for an action even an adult can't understand is absurd. Where is the parental responsibility? In some states, parents can be taken to jail for their child's truancy. It seems to me that if we're going to jail parents when their child skips school, at the very least they should be eligible for jail if their child commits rape and murder.

I think it's bullshit.

Juvenile *Offenders* That means I can, at 16, go out a slaughter a whole family, not get caught until I'm 30, and fight it for 6 to 20 years, and then, when all appeals are lost...no death penalty, cuz I *WAS* a minor? In this case I could be facing execution 30 to 40 years later...but I couldn't be executed due to being a JUVENILE OFFENDER? It's bollocks. Complete crap. A waste of our courts time, and a goddamned shame they pay attention to things like this. What is this really going to change?

The point is EXECUTING MINORS. I don't think any of us agree with that sort of thing. We know the US judicial system takes YEARS to go from conviction to execution in capital crimes cases, so what's the big deal? Do you REALLY expect a jury (or panel of judges, depending on the state) to sentence a 10 year old to Death? Of course not. How about a 17 year old? It does happen...but by the time all the appeals have gone through, the convict is a decade older or more.

And I hate that 'No deterrent' crap. It sure as hell is a deterrent...at the very least, for the person who was executed. They will never kill again.

That is true zencoder. They have NEVER been executed while still a minor juvenile. The notion is definitely misleading. However they are found guilty and sentenced in a lot of cases, as a minor juvenile.

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Saying that a child ... is completely responsible for an action even an adult can't understand is absurd.

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Humanist! ;)


//EDIT I retract this statement

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However they are found guilty and sentenced in a lot of cases, as a minor juvenile.

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I found no evidence to support that, in fact I believe in most cases they were over the age of 18 when sentencesd. But they did commit the crime when under 18 and in our society that should have relevence in all matters of justice. BUT we have never executed a minor in modern history. Good observation, it IS bullshit in a way.

Holy cow, Deb and I agree - again. My conservatism must be slipping -

Frag the kid. Frag his parents too. Hell, while we're at it, let's frag the majority of the Supreme Court who voted such an absurd verdict.

Rusty - I hate to tell you, but bootcamp doesn't work all the time. My youngest step-son went through it *twice*. Now he sits in the pen for getting caught walking across a meadow with someone else's 52 inch plasma teevee in his hands, then not paying his probation officer on time. Do I feel guilty for the kid's outcome? Not really, I didn't get a hand on him until he was 16 and dropped out of high school. In the 2 years of hell he brought to our household I tried my best to teach both he and his mother - I succeeded with mom, but failed miserably with him. He got tossed out on his butt at age 18 for a cocaine habit, arrested for burglary 6 months later, then jailed 6 months after that.

As for your great grandmother and the one who killed here - I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure it was a great loss to your family, however I don't think a session of boot-camp would be enough to punish the murderer for his act now would it?

You guys might want to check this out...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital...nt_in_the_U.S.

it's got a lot of facts and figures.

Eg

Ok - so I already posted my News of the Weird for the day, however - I also found this could be pertinent to the discussion - if nothing else - the extremes some parents are thinking and will go to for control - or at least their own illusion of such. Also not trying to pull religion into the discussion, I just found the article interesting:

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In January, the Consumer Product Safety Commission turned down a petition from corporal punishment opponent Susan Lawrence to ban "The Rod," a 22-inch-long nylon stick marketed by an Oklahoma couple as an aid to Bible-based child-rearing ("spare the rod, spoil the child"). Vying for the same market are the 9-inch-long, polyurethane spanking paddles of a Bakersfield, Calif., man and wooden spanking paddles of a New Kingston, Pa., man, both sold with an explicit Christian message. (Lawrence, who said she is a devout Lutheran, said corporal punishment of children is inconsistent with Jesus' teachings.) [San Francisco Chronicle, 2-6-05; Boston Globe, 1-10-05]

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Source: News of the Weird

As far as the main issue - capital punishment for juvenilles? It all starts back at home, like many stated here - the parents or established guardians that have had the resposibility and privilege of the child rearing years for their children, should have to be subject to trial and possible punishment for what their offspring commit; it would have to depend on the circumstances and if the parents/guardians have been with the child(ren) - the kid's whole life or just a couple of years. I would hate to have to waste a life - I would rather try and reform the kid(s), but I would also hate for convicted scum to be yet another drain on society - it would have to handled case-by-case and the question asked - how much is enough?

Then again - our state does not have the death penalty statute (after checking Egaledeist's link) so I will shut my trap now. :rolleyes:

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Originally posted here by |3lack|ce
...Now he sits in the pen for getting caught walking across a meadow with someone else's 52 inch plasma teevee in his hands, then not paying his probation officer on time. ...

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Dang! All by hisself? C'mon BlackIce, he hadda had help, right? BTW, what do probation officers cost nowadays?

More seriously, there is no one right solution. What works for one kid may not work for another. And, it may not work for long. I mean, a kid that can haul a 52-inch plasma TV across a meadow would have to be hard to spank.

I spanked when necessary. I preferred to deal with things immediately and directly. None of this "wait till mom gets home" business. But, it wasn't the focus of discipline and punishment. Consequences were the core. If you did something, you knew there would be a consequence, especially if it was something you knew was wrong. Sometimes, the consequence was no TV, or something. It was not always just a paddlin'.

One young man (a student/friend) I am especially proud of got squared away at Marine boot camp and served in Iraq recently. Others don't respond well to that kind of environment. Good parenting is key to child development. Parents are particularly challenged to be understanding and creative. To be effective, they need to know their children. They need to know what works, what doesn't and when the old tried and true methods aren't working any more. That usually begins around 14. ;)

Executing kids is wrong. Prosecuting someone on the verge of adulthood as an adult is one way of dealing with very bad behavior. But, if they are prosecuted as adults, they aren't kids anymore. My oldest daughter worked at a juvenile prison for a while. There are stories that support a some of what was said on this thread. She is a lot more conservative on in this area than I. I think she would like to see some kids removed from the gene pool much sooner than they are.

Naw Rapier - he's a big boy, even as far as Texans go. That idjit box was small potatos to him.

His older brother is proudly serving as a Marine in Iraq right now too.

But I believe you missed the point - that being -
Yes, punish the kids, but while you're at it, punish the parents too.

You're not going to ever 'reform' a kid who has only known a life of neglect, lies, violence, and street crime. You might reform his parents if you beat on 'em enough..

At 17 in my state, a child is legally an adult in 99 percent of respects. If he commits a crime, he is tried as an adult. If he commits capitol crime, (at least until today) he pays the ultimate price for it. He can get married, get a job, own property, pay taxes (income, sales, property, school), enter into contracts which legal and binding so long as he is either emancipated or mom and dad agree to back it (he can't be sued for non-performance, but his folks can), he can have sex as a consenting adult, with consenting adults, without fear of reprisal from anyone, and he can join the military on delayed entry. The only things he cannot do are vote and buy liquor. Why not hold him liable for his offenses?

It's absurd to hold someone liable for anothers actions. Meaning if I murder someone my mom is also guilty of murder. She may be quilty of not being a perfect child psycologist or even a "bad" mom and share some blame through a reduced sentence on the perp but murder? BTW all these cases take into aco**** the child rearing, past criminal offenses, the nature of the crime (like stabbing a girl 1000 times versus a simple strangulation) the local political climate etc. They aren't just tossed into the death squad. Plus there are just some bad kids out there and nothing a parent can do will change that. To think otherwise is a little nieve. I was a kid, influence in school and outside the home was FAR greater. I have seen parents battered to the ground by little demons who are smarter and care less about others than anyone could ever teach them. Want to blame something blame MTV ;) and the fact that life is meaningless from conception and trickles down into all aspects of what we teach children through interaction of society outside the home. Blame the schools who through litigation cannot and will not teach respect and draw a line with what is acceptable. And blame parents, but do not take the action and treat it like the child is the victim. My own pain and suffering does not give me the right nor the ability to escape punishment were I to make a desision to rape my girlfriend after prom, wether trying them as adults or not.

How can the "constitution" mean one thing for 200 years, and then suddenly
mean something else? I could understand if all the states outlawed the execution
of minors, or if the federal congress passed al law, or if they amended the constitution,
but now, nothing in the constitution can hold up as law, as long as the supreme court hates
some policy, they can "outlaw it". If other deeds have always been illegal in federal, state and
local laws, the supreme court can "legalize" them by reinterpreting the constitution.
Why do we bother to elect people to state legislatures, or to congress?
Isn't it to make our laws? We now live in a "winner take all"
political system where the only thing that matters
is who will be appointed to the
supreme court.
:cool:

The news tonight reminded me of something else signifcant to add:

Remember the Washington sniper? Oops. He was 17 when he did it. Guess what? Your supreme court just took him off death row...

Personally, I don't see what all the contraversy is about...we're all going to die, it's just a question of when and how...you can't avoid it...people act as if death is a bad thing when they don't even understand what it is...
if you take a life you voluntarily forfeit your own ( in the context of previous statements I have made )...it's as simple as that...and it doesn't matter if you're eighty or eight.

Whether capitol punishment ( death penalty ) should be used at all is a whole argument in it's self. As for the argument about parents and minors??

Minors do things all the time that horrify and discust us parents, like shitting in there pants, walking around wanking, saying things they hear us say.

The question should be, no matter your stance on capitol punishment, at what age should we kill the little mother ****ers. 5,10.15.20. When does a person become responsible for there own actions?

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Originally posted here by rapier57
I spanked when necessary. I preferred to deal with things immediately and directly. None of this "wait till mom gets home" business. But, it wasn't the focus of discipline and punishment. Consequences were the core. If you did something, you knew there would be a consequence, especially if it was something you knew was wrong. Sometimes, the consequence was no TV, or something. It was not always just a paddlin'.

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I spank my son when nothing else has worked. However, he's almost 10 now, and things are changing. Spanking isn't going to really be an option for me for much longer. However, he has a TV, DVD, VCR, computer, and video games, and I swear it hurts him more if I take those away than if I spank him. ;)

However, I think one of the things that a lot of parents miss is the difference between punishing a child, and disciplining them. I can whale on him all day long as punishment...but until I sit down and talk to him about why I'm doing it, what's wrong with his behavior, why it's unnacceptable, what he needs to do to change it, and what the results of not changing his behavior is going to be, it's not discipline.

RoadClosed, I wasn't suggesting that the parents be executed. I didn't state that clearly. But in most cases, (again, I will repeat, most, not all) the parents are at least partially responsible for their childs behavior. I was saying if we can put parents in jail for their childs truancy, we should certainly be able to put parents in jail for other crimes their child commits. I guarantee you that if I was looking at jail time because my child was caught shop-lifting, or some other minor crime, I would do everything in my power to stop him from committing other crimes. I'm going to be taking time to be sure I know where he is. I'm going to be taking time to make sure he has something to do after school besides hang out in front of the TV. I'm going to make sure I know where he is, who he's with, and when he's home.

|3|ack|ce, I'm actually not all that liberal. I just fit that category better than I do most any other. Your conservatism is probably quite safe. ;)

Hi jinxy,

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The question should be, no matter your stance on capitol punishment, at what age should we kill the little mother ****ers. 5,10.15.20. When does a person become responsible for there own actions?

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Again, in the context of everything I've said in other threads, if it's a deliberate action with the intent to kill I don't see where age is even in question.

People have made arguments saying that a large percentage of people on death row have the IQ of less than 80 which makes them less responsible for their actions...and there's people on death row with serious mental problems...and even those who could be considered mentally challenged... and are no more responsible than a minor in their minds.
Personally, I'm neither for nor against the death penalty...but if you're going to have one, I don't think age, IQ, mental stability, or any other excuse or reasoning, should have any bearing at all.

If you take a deliberate action with the intent to kill...you know what you're doing even if you have an IQ of 78 or you're only 9 years old...so it doesn't matter.

Most people act as if death is the worst possible thing that could happen to a person when they don't even know what it is...I can think of alot worse things than death.

If it's deliberate...juice em'...and while you're at it juice the rapists, child molesters, and half the priests in the Catholic Church.

Eg

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juice the rapists

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Yes, and juice the therapists too. :D

Hi l3lacklce,

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Yes, and juice the therapists too.

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and the judges, lawyers, and parole boards who let them go to do it again. :D juice em' all :D





seriously though... if you made parole boards more responsible for the actions of those they release you wouldn't see very many repeat offenders getting out.

As for the mental or intellectual health (or lack thereof) of the residents of death row:

They are on death row. Mainstream they ain't.

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Originally posted here by |3lack|ce As for your great grandmother and the one who killed here - I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure it was a great loss to your family, however I don't think a session of boot-camp would be enough to punish the murderer for his act now would it?

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No of course not! I'm just saying if you’re a minor damned to prison for life, you should be forced into boot-camp phase one. Then when you're of age to go to prison, you should be shipped off to Alaska for three years of boot-camp phase two. Let Uncle Sam mold them into useful assets, learning skills so they can be productive, so they can further our interest wherever it may be suitable. And that my friend IMHO is better then knowing that the little bastards are loafing in prison spreading STD's, and being counterproductive for life. All I'm trying to get across here is they ****ed up big, a time or two but that doesn’t mean they're worthless for the rest of their being. Uncle Sam does have the ability to change the young, growing minds of these perps. It may take time but they own plenty of that. Get them started on ANWAR.;) ****, I don't know, anything but them sitting around eating soybean salisbury steak. Hell, make them drill for water for the thirsty in Africa. Make them grow and pass out wheat for those kids you see on feed the children.

It sure would be nice if we could - unfortunately the same 'cruel and unusual punishment' clause would be cited at (by) the Supreme Court that was used to justify today's action. The best course we can hope for at this point is to write our Congressmen and hope things change. You can find your congressman's name/mailing address at:

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

or your Senator at:

http://www.senate.gov/general/contac...nators_cfm.cfm

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I would do everything in my power to stop him from committing other crimes.

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That's just the point, you can't stop him. You can teach and mold him into your likeness and moral standard but there comes a point. Maybe when he's 12, where he is faced with a decision alone. And he will make it, and you can never do anything outside of influence the outcome. He may think of you while making the choice but the choice is up to him. He can get help but once the desisions are outside of mom saying yes or no, he's on his own.