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I have been following this story for a while......
Its amazing the accomplishments and changes that can happen when people stand for what they believe in.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/n...nd/4349963.stm
5 sisters standing up not only to the government...but to the IRA
For change
I can only see it as positive.
MLF
Ahh yes... Generally Sinn Fein is not to be taken lightly....
Have been folowing the story myself. Courageous people.
Yes very brave.
I believe thay have already made great strides...and even with the threats have a chance on breaking the stifling control the IRA and church have on them.
I have never understood the inbred hated in Ireland...passed on from generation to generation.
Or the control the religion has??
Is it just ignorance??
MLF
Gerry Adams was the "President" of the Provisional IRA Council in Dublin in the early 80's. Martin McGuinness was the Second in Command at the same time.... This means they knew of, ordered and monitored IRA operations during that period.
How do I know? I was there, at the time, as an Intelligence "Operative" with access to a computer system that... errr... doesn't exist. It was called an "official secret" and the Brits here know what that means for anyone who signs the Official Secrets Act.... I'm pretty sure that the fact we track people by computer is "out of the bag" now... ;)
The information available to me was extensive and conclusive. At the same time the fledgling "Sinn Fein" was starting their "political" aspirations Gerry Adams was it's head.... While he was head of the PIRA Council... There is no doubt.... I saw the evidence/intelligence. He made that move for power... Nothing else... just power.
This is not the first time the IRA/Sinn Fein have been "stood up to"... There was a pair of ladies that tried it in the late 80's... Sadly I forget their names.... Mairead was one IIRC....
The facts: Sinn Fein is a POS, the PIRA and now the RIRA, (IIRC what they call themselves today), are the same. They have always been a bunch of thugs.... Now, don't get me wrong here... The UDA, UFF etc. were a bunch of thugs too.... I remember reading what they did to a working man in Belfast who's only crime was working in a low end job but getting two or three of his girls into Queens University in Belfast, (utterly remarkable for the environment they lived in, Divis Flats), who was taken into a back alley, had his teeth removed with pliers and then beaten to death..... for being a Catholic...
I wish these ladies the absolute best of luck and I hope that they can provide a resistance that grows.... It's the only way to beat them....
In short... Terrorists are Terrorist.... No matter what their "point" may be.... they are useless thugs and criminals that need exterminating.....
Questions?
Don't beat around the bush Tiger. Tell it like it is, no more sitting on the fence :DQuote:
they are useless thugs and criminals that need exterminating.....
The other details coming out make for poor reading.
THere was a Sinn Fein member IN the Pub, when the murder took place.......
The Pub was full of people, NONE of whom have come forward / seen or said ANYTHING.......
Northern Ireland is a VERY strange place. The hatred is inbuilt from birth, and it was kept on the boil during the 'troubles' by the Protestants burning down the Catholic houses in THEIR area, and the Catholics burning down the Protestant houses in THEIR area ???????
As for the worst place in ALL of Northern Ireland / Belfast - the Divis flats HAS to be in the top two, along with anywhere in County Armagh.
Just my thoughts ...........
What I wanted to stress on posting this is that these women are going about it without the histrorical thuggishness (is that a word??)..and that they are standing up against it.
TS/.....I believe you were talking about Mairead Corrigan...winner of the Nobel Peace Prize
http://nobelprize.org/peace/laureate...rrigan-cv.html
I just wish these women and thier families a safe journey.
They are very brave..to be standing up to these people...as we can see not many others have thier gaul..They have been held down and brainwashed for far too long by the IRA and church
I agree with you Tiger...terrorist are terrorists...no ifs ands or buts about it
one thing that did move me was the speech made by Catherine McCartney...
on how the American Irish should stop the romanticing the IRA and the struggle of Northern Ireland
Being of Irish heritage myself...I am guilty of this is my younger days.
I am much older now :( and wiser..I hope
.....I can see the inbred hated and bigority that drives this...on both sides...and want no part of it. I would like to see the McCartney Sisters make a change
I am grateful I live in such a tolorant society like Canada.
One thing I hate though (and hate is a strong word)...is when other cultures bring this thier inbred, handed down hate and bigority here......and I am not just talking about Catholics and Protestants.......if you know what I mean
MLF
I'm half Irish myself. My family is Daily/Quinlain on my mothers side. My middle name is even an old root name in gaelic of one of the clans.
That being said, and having been born, bred, and raised in America, I really don't understand the root of these problems and 'the troubles'. I understand some generalities, I think. The protestant british settlers are in place (for generations now) and the catholic irish feel they have been (wrongly) supplanted and uprooted by said protestants. Now that is probably Sinn Fein spin, or worse. I don't really know the cause. But I do know it's lead to a state where people are targets for seemingly random violence based solely on how they say grace at meals, or what place of worship the attend.
It sounds frighteningly sad, and scary. I know both sides are very certain of their 'rightfulness' and the 'evil oppression' of the other.
I wish I understood better, but it's not a subject that mainstream America hears much about, outside of Tom Clancy movies.
I think the issues go way back...Ireland has always had "invaders".....back to the vikings which have roots there along with the british...and are long time bred into the society..we all have varied roots nowadays
I think the origins of the IRA go back to fighting the "Black and Tans" who were brutes .......
Anyway that was along time ago......and many things have changed since then.
I just like that these women are standing up to the oppressive parties\groups....and making waves in the world media.....annd hopefully making a change in the thinking of the youth of Northern Ireland... and to question the issues....
..and not cowering to the "threats" from the current brutes......whether they be catholics, protestants, the church or their own government.......
From what I can see they are threading on dangerous ground...and couragously at that.....braver than those other 70 odd people in the bar that witnessed or helped in the brutal beating\stabbing\killing of thier brother
All the power to them!!!!
MLF
I might as well join the club...as I've mentioned in previous threads my ancestery is Irish/Scotish...A Kelt from a long line of Kelts...
and I have studied many historical documents on the history of the Islands and their people...if memory serves me correct and it's been awhile so I may be wrong as new information unfolds with historians...the Irish are actually the original inhabitants of what is now Portugal who were forced out by invaders around 2000BC and sailed north to what is now Ireland where they, in turn, forced the original inhabitants of Ireland north and across the waters into what is now England, the original inhabitants of Ireland were then again forced north through the invasions of Romans, Normans, Saxons, Anglos, and many others...the original inhabitants were the Picts which were called such because when Ceasar invaded he called them Picts because they shaved themselves clean and painted their bodies blue ( according to his own records...I know many people deplict the Picts as tattooed ladies at a circus...but according to Ceasars own accounts they did not have tattoos they were painted blue and had no hair except on their head...they shaved their body hair )...
my point being...that Ireland has no more legitimate claim to Northern Ireland than the American Indian has claim to the U.S.
Most borders are fixed through war and are maintained through defense...if they ( the Official Government of Ireland ) want the land back they stole in the first place from it's original inhabitants they should declare war...or try to annex it through peaceful means.
The IRA are just a bunch of terrorists ! I doubt very much the U.S. would tolerate some radical Indian movement that bombed cafe's and cars in downtown Chicago.
Having been in the USA for some 16 years now I have come across the "Irish-Americans" on a few occasions.... Two notables were as follows:-
On vacation in Baltimore I visited a victualling establishment. My ex had walked in before me and was already at the bar ordering when I walked in. As soon as I entered my hair stood up. The walls were filled with amatuer paintings of Pigs, (the British military Humber(?)), and Makrilons, (the armored Land Rovers), on fire or being blown up by terrorists with RPG7's. Taking pride of place in the center behind the bar was a large B/W photograph of Bobby Sands, (the IRA terrorist in the H Blocks that starved himself to death, (Daily Mirror Slimmer of the Month for 3 straight months IIRC)). I arrived at the bar as the beers arrived.... I told the barkeep that I wouldn't drink in his establishment which drew the attention of the locals.... :rolleyes:. We left with the barkeep yelling obscenities at me.
The second was at a Highland games in Bethlehem PA. There was this skinny little worm going around with some sort of support the IRA tee shirt on collecting money of all things. He was nearly smart - he had a much bigger guy with a similar tee shirt on as his "bouncer"... He asked me for money and I told him to.. er.. "disappear"... He then decided it would be fun to follow me around and _keep_ asking me to support the cause of the oppressed... His bouncer found this exceedingly funny until he made the mistake of getting a little too close to me.... :D I do believe that when I walked away he was crying.... The worm was certainly bleeding.... and my ex was mega pissed since we decided it was best to leave rather than be slapped with a lawsuit....
The problem here was caused by the Major media.... Their reporting was always slanted to the side of the IRA and always against the Brits. This helped foster an attitude that made giving money in collections to a terrorist organization really rather acceptable.
MLF... Yes Mairead Corrigan.... I remembered the Corrigan later.... Fine woman along with her friend who's name really escapes me....
Hopefully, while no-one there seems to have the balls to step forward and point the finger at the culprits, the IRA and Sinn Fein have taken sufficient bad press in the last 6 months not to be stupid enough to take reprisals against the McCartney family... It really would be the nail in their coffins and Adams is smart enough to know that... The order has almost certainly been put out already... "Hands Off!!!", and whether you believe he's still the head of the PIRA council or not - his words are law......
three points worth mentioning.
First the Republic of Ireland makes no claim on northern reland and does not support the ira in any way. We modified our constitution to make that clear.
Secondly the present troubles in the north have their origion more in the civil rights marches of the late 60 than any thing that came before. The catholics held marches to demand proper houseing, schools and the same job oppertunitys as protestants in northern ireland. The british army fired on one of these marches in what became knowen as the second bloody sunday. As the first was in the 20's. The ira and sinn feinn jumped on the opportunity and the rest is as they say history.
Thirdly It is all about power and not religion.
I personnaly would prefer to see the gerry adams and ian paisleys of northern ireland strung up but if they have to be there then they would do well to learn the lesson from this. they can no longer rule by fear and hatred. People in the north have seen that they now have a say in things so they wont accept what they would have accepted even five years ago.
I don't think anyone was bringing Eire into this at all.....Quote:
First the Republic of Ireland makes no claim on northern reland and does not support the ira in any way. We modified our constitution to make that clear.
Actually the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association, (NICRA), was marching in the mid to late 1960's and the traditionally accepted date for the beginning of this set of "troubles" is August 16th 1969. Bloody Sunday did not take place until Jan 30th 1972. The British Troops were fired upon initially from a rooftop during a demonstration. Then the gunfire began to come from IRA members within the crowd itself. The Second Batallion, Parachute Regiment returned fire... Into the crowd.. IMO a bad command decision but then it was that or withdraw.... I have this first hand from a friend I served with for several years who was there. So the two incidents are entirely unrelated and the issues had been ongoing for more than two years when this event took place. On August 16th 1969 the British government sent the troops in to protect the Catholics _from_ the Protestants who were beginning to "invade" the Catholic areas nightly and the RUC, (Royal Ulster Constabulary), could not handle it. The Catholics began barricading themselves into their neighborhoods to stop them. After the troops arrived and began patrolling the Catholic areas - keeping the Protestants out - the barricades were taken down. It was less than a year later that the barricades went up again - this time it was to keep the troops out. They didn't really come down until 1973 during Operation Motorman when the military _took_ them down through a massive show of force.Quote:
Secondly the present troubles in the north have their origion more in the civil rights marches of the late 60 than any thing that came before. The catholics held marches to demand proper houseing, schools and the same job oppertunitys as protestants in northern ireland. The british army fired on one of these marches in what became knowen as the second bloody sunday. As the first was in the 20's. The ira and sinn feinn jumped on the opportunity and the rest is as they say history
Yes, it's about power... But it's divided along religious lines... Way back then FTP used to _only_ mean "**** the Pope", REM used to only be part of REM 1690, (when England first conquered Ireland). These are things you see painted on the walls of the buildings close to the "peace lines" between Catholic and protestant areas - just over the line in the Catholic area when the kids show how brave they are to cross the line and deface the Catholic property. The Catholics did similar on the walls of the protestant house just across the peace line.Quote:
Thirdly It is all about power and not religion.
All that being said it is a classic example of a minority not liking the democratic rule of the majority and chosing the route of terrorism as a "way out".
It was in answer to that.Quote:
Most borders are fixed through war and are maintained through defense...if they ( the Official Government of Ireland ) want the land back they stole in the first place from it's original inhabitants they should declare war...or try to annex it through peaceful means.
I was keeping the answer simple and more or less agree with you. Except :p .........
Basically that means the catholics should have accepted the religious discrimmination of the protestants, The fact that being catholic excluded you from decent housing, getting the same wage as a protestant for the same job or even getting the same job. I suppose you could say it was normal as the catholics were not very well educated. Then again it was democratic as 90 % of the funding for education went to 60% of the population.Quote:
All that being said it is a classic example of a minority not liking the democratic rule of the majority and chosing the route of terrorism as a "way out".
The civil liberties marches as you said went from the mid sixties to 1972 when the march was fired on. The british army says they were fired on while the march orgainsers say the only ones to fire were the soldiers. We may never have all the details. What are called the troubles did effectively start in 1969 and as I said they have their origions in the civil rigths marches. The incident mentioned above was used by the ira and sinn feinn to increase their power and support on the republicain side.
sourceQuote:
On July 1 1690 two Kings faced each other across the River Boyne. By evening King William had won a decisive victory, preserved the Protestant settlement in Ireland and drove King James into permanant exile. It was a great victory for William and is celebrated to this day by the Orange Order
just as an aside REM 1690 is a referance to the battle of the boyne which was a battle between two English kings. Ireland was invades and conqured by the english/normans in 1169.
Change Catholic to Women - Womens Lib begins :)Quote:
Basically that means the catholics should have accepted the religious discrimmination of the protestants, The fact that being catholic excluded you from decent housing, getting the same wage as a protestant for the same job or even getting the same job. I suppose you could say it was normal as the catholics were not very well educated. Then again it was democratic as 90 % of the funding for education went to 60% of the population.
The start of the troubles isn't really an issue nowadays, but the British Army was used to protect the Catholics: Odd that in a sense.
It is a very simplistic sentence, and I'm sure that TS could expound on it :)Quote:
All that being said it is a classic example of a minority not liking the democratic rule of the majority and chosing the route of terrorism as a "way out".
But for the hell of it; it IS as true as it gets.
They [Catholics] should have followed the democratic / vote way. They just got swallowed up by the terrorists, who figured out a way to make a LOT of money out of it all [protection / black cabs {all in Northern Ireland pay to the 'cause'} / smuggling / robbery / kidnapping {Shergar ?} / the list goes on.
But just as they [IRA] used it to make money. We [ Brits] had got the best training ground in the world for urban combat. [ no offence to anyone, but does ANYONE believe that the terrorists could have survived for 30 years if we had REALLY wanted them dead .........]
Hi MURACU,
I made that statement you quoted in reference to the fact that only the governing body has the privilege to declare war...it would have made no sense at all if I were to have said that the IRA could declare war as they are not the ruling government....which is why I defined " they " in brackets so no one would assume that the " they " I was speaking of were the IRA. I was not trying to state where the government stands on this issue.
In short...only the ruling government can declare war or annex through peaceful means...the IRA, as stated, are terrorists and do not have that privilege.
Eg ;)
Just warning you that i am just getting back in after celebrating paddys day so if i dont make sense i plead drunkeness.
That is the only way for people to go forward. People need to stop pointing the finger and get down to sorting out the situtation. It is true that most people dont know that the army was sent in to the north to protect the catholics.Quote:
The start of the troubles isn't really an issue nowadays, but the British Army was used to protect the Catholics: Odd that in a sense.
Eg,
A lot of people outside ireland have, as has been said here, a romantic view of the heroic struggle of the downtrodden irish people of the north against the evil english occuppying army from the east.....(amazed i even managed to write that :p) To be serious it is a commonly held misconception especially in the states that the IRA has the complete support of the irsh people and state.
It's especially a misconception among American tourist who visit Ireland. After a few days they are ready to revolt against the Crown. :rolleyes:
Maracu, I am still planning my trip although the time line is not set. :D I found a killer deal with Trafalgar last night....
...and the funniest notion of all, is all the stuff about religion.
the intelligent mind can and will normally become irrational and aggressive when talking about religion / defending the beliefs of the particular cult to which it "belongs". infact alot of people would take offence to someone calling their organised religion a cult...a cult that legally congrugates and monotonously chants scripture.
the whole catholic v protestant thing is deep rooted though isn't it? something about a king having a feud with a pope about a wife?
It's that and a little deeper. It all started with this dude names Luther. ;)
i'd say it started along time before him and his nail ;)
people have had beliefs as long as there have been people.
True, those peculiar stones in Ireland and England predate chirsianity as long, and many times longer, as they have been around. In the time from of 2000 years since The Christ. ;
Luthar was even more against scientific discoveries happening in his life time than the Vatican. We tend to lump all the bad stuff on the Pope. ;)