http://news.com.com/Battle+brews+ove...?tag=nefd.ledeQuote:
We need a free BIOS, because if we don't control the BIOS we don't control our computers,
So anyone else think this is just a new way for users to hose their systems?
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http://news.com.com/Battle+brews+ove...?tag=nefd.ledeQuote:
We need a free BIOS, because if we don't control the BIOS we don't control our computers,
So anyone else think this is just a new way for users to hose their systems?
I've found a user can hose their systems without actually doing anything at all...
At least... that what they tell me...
Me: "So... what was it EXACTLY that you did right before your computer stopped working?"
Them: "Nothing! I swear! All I did was turn it on!"
I don't think the free BIOS would make that much difference. If people are messing with loading a new BIOS... then they have to have at least *some* smarts. If not... too bad.
I can *probably* fix it... my rate is $100 for the first hour, minimum one hour, $50 for every hour after that. No guarantees though... ;) Worse case scenario... you have to replace the BIOS... it may be cheaper to just replace the mobo.
They never seem to figure it out ... 'I'm paying him by the hour to fix it but maybe I won't give all the facts and it will take longer to trouble shoot that way he can bill me more... I'm so smart' :DQuote:
At least... that what they tell me...
One of my personal favorites is "How come the bill is so much, a lot of the time the computer was slow and rebooting, I shouldn't have to pay for that?" Who messed it up?
Well,
I go with phish~ on the €/£/$ :D
Given that 90% of users don't even understand their OS, what on earth would they want control of their BIOS for?
Anyway, it is flying in the face of industry trends? You buy a branded PC these days and you get some "recovery disk" or even worse, a hidden drive/partition, instead of the retail or OEM version of the OS.
Also if you boot into the BIOS you find that it has been "castrated" and you can't access the normal features you would get if you bought a MoBo and built your own box.
Geez! I thought that I was paranoid ::hide-beh
Or is this one of those "bull$h1t for bucks" articles :D
whatthe, that's pretty funny about the rebooting... i often though about it, but in my days of repair and recovery no one actually asked me about it.
and I have to go with phish also. If you mess up the BIOS, well, it's your damn fault. Users have no business fudging with the bios.
nihil, i don't understand why castrated pcs are bad. I agree, they are not for everyone, but there are things that are better suited to be hidden from users. It's a good attempt of a brand company trying to give themselves less problems to fix. But like I said, they should offer different versions, one for normal users, one for admins, etc...
I hereby propose a license to operate a computer. Like buying guns or driving cars, users should have to go through a competency exam and background check. If they fail, they get the most basicest of the basic computers until they can pass another exam. Wishful thinking I guess...
good post xtc.
Getting back to the point, I have a problem with the idea that BIOS needs "freeing".
What I don't agree with is the idea that all software has to be free (even though I love open source) in order for someone to be in an ethical position. Creating free BIOS _SOLELY_ for this reason is an example of stupid logic. What next, do you want open source ECU software? Don't you feel like you are in an ethically compromised position since you have non-free software in your car?!Quote:
"We need a free BIOS, because if we don't control the BIOS we don't control our computers," said Richard Stallman, president of the Free Software Foundation, a Boston-based organization dedicated to promoting the use, modification and redistribution of computer programs. "It puts me in an ethically compromised position to have a nonfree program in my machine."
There is a pretty good discussion about this here: http://blogs.redhat.com/people/archive/000201.html
I do, however, agree that alternatives should be available for those who want them, especially the security-minded. How hard would it be for someone to write a virus that writes to the BIOS? How would open-source BIOS fix this? Anyone have any idea?
-ik
Ok lets think about about this.... The system is as follows starting from the top, (simplified):-
Applications
Operating System
BIOS
Hardware
Usually your favorite user fsks up at the application layer and does something to it's settings that stop them or hide from them the precious little function they use almost exclusively.... This isn't usually much of an issue. At the app level only the app is really affected.
The curious users manage to fsks up the OS... Now we are starting to hit the "really kewl" stuff.... Messing with the OS messes with the apps too.... Now the box is really messed up....
So... we want users messing with the BIOS? It's a pile of bricks - BIOS, OS, Apps... the BIOS is the lowest - pull it out and the pile falls... next they'll be suggesting that everyone take a screwdriver to the hardware.... :rolleyes:
You'd be amazed at how much stress can be relieved by doing just that after finding that a comp is completely dead at the hardware level :DQuote:
next they'll be suggesting that everyone take a screwdriver to the hardware....
I have had a good think and I actually cannot remember anything I have been asked to fix that was due to the user messing with the BIOS...............when it gets that bad they usually bring it to me :DQuote:
nihil, i don't understand why castrated pcs are bad. I agree, they are not for everyone, but there are things that are better suited to be hidden from users. It's a good attempt of a brand company trying to give themselves less problems to fix. But like I said, they should offer different versions, one for normal users, one for admins, etc...
I find not being able to access the full (normal) BIOS can hinder me in trying to fix things............
Yes, I agree with your assessment of the motives.............cut helpdesk costs?
:)
Actually, what I think this boils down to is that the BIOS manufacturers are soon going to incorporate DRM (Digital Rights Management) into the BIOS chip that will prevent the user (of the computer) from installing copy right protected software, mp3's, ect on the computer. Personally, I don't like the idea of them controling what I do on my PC. I'm no pirate, but I don't want them dictating what I do on my pc. I don't think the idea of open BIOS will differ from the the BIOS of today when it comes down to the user. It would probably be similar to the way we upgrade the BIOS now. Richard Stallman is a big contributer to open source software, as you know. I don't think he intends for a novice user to manipulate the BIOS firmware. His goal is probably to become independant of the control that the BIOS manufacturers are about to impose.
Clp727
They would want paying big time for that, and it would be 15 years before all the old kit "flushed through"Quote:
Actually what I think this boils down to is that the BIOS manufacturers are soon going to incorporate DRM (Digital Rights Management) into the BIOS chip that will prevent the user (of the computer) to install copy right protected software, mp3's, ect on the computer
I don't think the RIAA have mastered the technology of the wheel, let alone anything more complicated?
Also, would you buy a MoBo or computer which you knew had that limitation?
The MoBo boys and PC manufacturers stand to lose far more, and will just get some Chinese company to write BIOSes for them?
Time to dump your Phoenix and American Megatrends stocks folks?
;)
nihil,
I agree. I wouldn't buy a PC, or motherboard that has that capabilty. I would hope that the average user wouldn't either. I had read other articles about this technology...it creeps me out! It's too "Big Brother" for me. In one article that I read, the software manufacturers were real supportive of this new firmware technology. If I can find the articles I will post them. (If its okay) Im sure a good google search will turn up tons of info.
I definitely think that an open BIOS would be a problem for a novice. I can see lot's of problems there! :(
Clp727
Sure the software boys will be all for it to prevent piracy, but the hardware crowd are working on very low margins and are the people who will actually lose.
Hey, a BIOS is not rocket science?.........I could get one written in China or India?, and most of the MoBos are made in China?
:)
MICROSOFT is the main supporter of a system like this... Had to do with their new copyright scheme planned for longhorn...
Reading the linked article:
Okay, whose zoo is missing a looney bird??Quote:
'Evil' companies?
Stallman argues instead that Intel is not doing enough and BIOS makers are not needed. Instead, he wants information.
"We're not wanting to do anything with the BIOSes from Phoenix or any of the others," he said. "We're not asking them to do anything, any more than we're asking Microsoft to do anything. These (companies) are evil. You can't expect them to do anything just because you ask them to. Our goal is to escape from them ."
If nobody really cares but HE really cares, then logic adds up to say "He's a nobody".Quote:
"You'd need to know the confidential information about the chips to write" a free BIOS, Insyde Software's Joseph said. Right now, "that info is only available on old hardware that nobody really cares about anymore."
It's not Christmas, so where'd this fruitcake come from?
Too many 70's drugs. Weird.
Well, I googled for the articles. The closest thing that I could find is this:
http://msn-cnet.com.com/Chipmakers+p...3-5647090.html
"Chipmakers push ahead with new tech"
Intel set sights on chips to ease online sharing of music, films and games, as AMD looks into helping computers run several operating systems simultaneously.
I think Stallman is worried about his mp3 collection. :D
Hi ZT~
I wonder if I put my Chinese Abacus and stand-mounted magnifying glass on e-bay, would he bid for it................?
And somewhere I probably still have that microcode proggy for programming your own CPU..........
:D
I can think of at least one instance where they are implementing DRM in hardware...
The Cell...
http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cells/Cell0.html
More interesting is part 2...
http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cells/Cell2.htmlQuote:
DRM In The Hardware
Some will no doubt be turned off by the fact that DRM is built into the Cell hardware. Sony is a media company and like the rest of the industry that arm of the company are no doubt pushing for DRM type solutions. It must also be noted that the Cell is destined for HDTV and BluRay / HD-DVD systems, any high definition recorded content is going to be very strictly controlled by DRM so Sony have to add this capability otherwise they would be effectively locking themselves out of a large chunk of their target market. Hardware DRM is no magic bullet however, hardware systems have been broken before - including Set Top Boxes and even IBM's crypto hardware for their mainframes.
Another is Microsoft's "palladum" which has been renamed "Trusted Computing"
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html
Thats what it's called! I couldn't remember. When did they change the name?Quote:
Another is Microsoft's "palladum" which has been renamed "Trusted Computing"
When the whole IT industry criticized them for trying to get hardware manufacturers to implement DRM in the hardware. It was in virtually every tech mag out there. It got such a bad name that they changed the name... So, Trusted Computing is what they call it now.Quote:
Originally posted here by The Grunt
Thats what it's called! I couldn't remember. When did they change the name?
Looks like it was around Jan 25 2003...
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/f...alladiumwp.asp
Oops... guess they call it
"Next-Generation Secure Computing Base for Windows." now.
I was wrong.
I wouldn't worry too much about the user playing with the bios.......it isn't*should not be* as easy as pressing F2 to randomly change your bios settings...
Though I don't think that free BIOS is needed for an "ethically [pure]" environment, I do believe that it should be open source. There should be alternatives, and when I buy something, I have every right to know everything about it....maybe not the code, but atleast the specs of a mobo or vid card. When I buy spaghetti sauce, the FDA requires that the ingredients are listed...not just for allergy reasons. The FCC should be doing the same with hardware.
A_T
I really cannot see the justification for open source firmware...............how many people on the planet would have the knowledge and equipment to code it? :D Or would even want to?
All you need to know is what it does, what it lets you do, and how to fix it if it breaks ;)
People should have OpenSource whatever they want. Thats the point, people SHOULD HAVE THE CHOICE, instead of being locked into restrictive license agreements, and reduced rights on property you own, so corporations can legislate further control over the computer in your bedroom, telling you what you can, and cannot do with your PC. Would you let car manufacturers do this ****? Is there a secret distributor cap that people should not have the plans to, because they have no business opening the hood of their car? You dont need to justify it. I want it. I would use it, and I sure as **** wouldnt call one of you monkeys to come fix it. (Thats a joke.:))
-Maestr0
Well they can, all they have to do is go write it :)Quote:
People should have OpenSource whatever they want.
You can always build your own.......................Quote:
instead of being locked into restrictive license agreements, and reduced rights on property you own, so corporations can legislate further control over the computer in your bedroom, telling you what you can, and cannot do with your PC
They do..............buy a Ford and you get a Ford engine, accessories, embedded processors.............Quote:
Would you let car manufacturers do this ****?
"caveat emptor"...................let the buyer beware................just make sure you know what you are buying first.
there is a difference between knowing what si there and being able to fully control it. Alot of these precausions are in place to PROTECT users. People know there is a computer that monitors fuel injection levels and breaking pressure on heavy vehicles. these things can be altered but are hard to do becasue the wrong tweak and you endanger many.Quote:
Would you let car manufacturers do this ****? Is there a secret distributor cap that people should not have the plans to, because they have no business opening the hood of their car?
say the driver of a semi truck decides he wants to change the pressure applied to the front breaks of his truck and the time it takes to reach full pressure. so he does what he thinks are appropriate adjustments. then he is driving and needs to slam on his breaks for some reason, front locks up his head gets slammed into the stearing wheel and he releases the break out of sheer panic. now there is a semi out of control and people could easily die.
this is an extreme case but it does show why users should not have access to some things. atleast not without proper training.
I am in full support for the open source bios. Mainly because of new features and removal of features. My major fear is this "Trusted Computing" bullcrap, because there's one thing i've learned. NEVER TRUST THE COMPUTER! no matter how much software or hardware that there, simple fact is, you can't trust it. Unless you built it yourself, have it unplugged from any network, and have kept your eyes on it at all times, 100% of the time, there is no way you can have 100% confidence in it. maybe thats just me, but i never put my full trust in it. but Back to my main point. I'm scared of Trusted Computing. Motherboard manufacturers don't make that much money, so they'll suffer the most, but they are also the easiest to target. Microsoft is pushing it because they see the money in it. Now, I know the anti-trust guys wouldn't go for it, but if Microsoft greased the palms of the mobo manufacturers then the chips could make its way in there. It could be like some of the chips they have now that have some virus protection in them. They could just say it helps deter spyware and malware because the hardware makes sure the software is secure. Another point, the RIAA and MPAA and any other AA's could grease some palms as well. Just to make sure that it gets in there hook line and sinker. Now i'm just going thru hypotheticals so i'm not garaunteeing any of this is even remotely legal or feasible.
Plus, people say they'd never buy it, but some people can't think themselves out of a dialogue box, and they'll easily bite on a product that works with windows and promises a significantly less amount of virus's, malware and spyware. If you market anything write the computer stupid will buy it. Plus alot of people don't build their own machines, they buy the HPs, E-machines, and Dells. So alot of them don't even realize there's a choice in motherboards. It sounds conspiracy-ish, but if the payoff is there for those company's, they'll pop the chips in there. Low and behold, you can't back up your dvds because your hardware simply goes "I'm sorry, I can't find the disk" but if you click play in media player, it plays right away.
Hardware things like this scares me, because I could get locked into a Windows and Mac only world. No more fun with linux until someone figures out how to emulate the conversation with the chips right. That could kill poor little tux in one shot. All that aside, another factor, is the fact that the BIOS could check for the existance of the chip. So you wouldn't be able to go the low-tech route and pull the chip out manually (i'm not sure about the feasability of this way anyhow, since it would probably screw up the way the electrons flow thru the mobo).
An Open Bios wouldn't be a bad idea, it would empower users. True, if a user is dumb enough to screw around with it, they'll get burned. But its the same with the OS. If I delete an important windows file, then i'm screwed. I have to reinstall windows. You break the Bios, then you get to have fun putting it back on. Motherboard manufacturers would just need to put in a ROM chip that would load a 5 second screen, or a jumper that would allow you to choose from a simple menu like the following: "1) Load new bios? Caution will delete existing configuration 2)Boot up computer normally". If you make a Load screen with those 2 options thats read only, you can't screw it up that bad and accidently make a $300-$4000 rock.
I dunno, more options always seems better than less to me. You just need to know your place, what to touch and what not to. You'd be suprised, alot of people know not to touch certain things.
They did. http://www.linuxbios.org/Quote:
Well they can, all they have to do is go write it
And they follow open standards (How do you think all those mechanics run diagnostics on all those different cars?) and parts can be manufatured or replaced by anyone who feels like it.Quote:
They do..............buy a Ford and you get a Ford engine, accessories, embedded processors........
http://www.sae.org/servlets/techtrac...V&PROD_TYP=STD
I already follow enough rules invented just because some total idiot came up with an igenious way to be a moron, maybe you you want to live by those rules but I sure dont.Quote:
say the driver of a semi truck decides he wants to change the pressure applied to the front breaks of his truck and the time it takes to reach full pressure. so he does what he thinks are appropriate adjustments. then he is driving and needs to slam on his breaks for some reason, front locks up his head gets slammed into the stearing wheel and he releases the break out of sheer panic. now there is a semi out of control and people could easily die.
How about my version:
say the driver of a semi truck decides he wants to drink 3 bottles of liquor before driving his rig. so he drinks what he thinks is the appropriate amount to get wasted and goes for a cruise. then he is driving and needs to slam on his breaks for some reason, but he's wasted so his head gets slammed into the stearing wheel and he releases the break out of sheer panic. now there is a semi out of control and people could easily die.
his is an extreme case but it does show why truck drivers should not have access to alcohol. atleast not without proper training.
Gimmie a break. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
-Maestr0
umm..there are also rules against drinking and driving...
Im just saying that unfortunatley there are idiots in the world who ruin things, so precausions have to be put in place. No one is stopping you from writing your own programs, designing your own mobo and bios. what your asking for is somone else to do the work and you get the benefits.
oh and for everyone who thinks everything should be Open source..you are retarded. why should somone have to give away the secrets to something they design? they deserve to get paid for there work. I agree that open source things rock, but I dont think its fair that alot of these guys bust there asses coding and then get jack for it.
Its part of a trade off, they code things I pay for their code. I build their network, they pay me to do so. Or a mechanic pays for the code, then they pay the mechanic to fix their card. The coder loses if he gives the code away.
You appear to be confusing "open source" with industry standardsQuote:
And they follow open standards (How do you think all those mechanics run diagnostics on all those different cars?) and parts can be manufatured or replaced by anyone who feels like it.
Sure I use industry standard PC components all the time....................and common diagnostics tools, because a PC is a PC, just like an automobile is an automobile ;) ...............just try fitting a Chevvy door to a Ford ;)
No, you are confusing an Open Standard with Open Source. TCP/IP is an open standard, it is not source at all, its a standard. Read the article. I never said everything had to be open source, I said people should have a choice. If you read the article its not about open sourcing the BIOS code at all. "The group now plans to mount a campaign to open up specifications required to write BIOSes" They want the BIOS specifiations to be a disclosed standard witch would allow other coders to produce code which is interoperable with current hardware and operating systems."The campaign will ask those companies, including PC makers and motherboard makers, to make available specifications on their products to allow free software writers to create BIOSes for them." It's not open sourcing anything. "We're not wanting to do anything with the BIOSes from Phoenix or any of the others" The only open source mentioned is the proposal from Intel for an open source framework. All they are asking for is access to the information to make interoperable software. "Detailed specifications on cutting-edge PC hardware may be tough to come by. The information given to BIOS makers now is granted under nondisclosure and it's not clear whether companies such as Intel, PC makers like Dell, or motherboard makers would reveal even a little bit of information." And yes, your industry standard PC components adhere to an open standard which all manufacturers use to insure their components function properly, its no secret. If you wanted to start making PCI cards the specifications are readily available. This is not the case with BIOSs.
-Maestr0
So you want an open standard for BIOS, OK here you go:
"Make the bloody computer and its peripherals work" :D
That IS the standard for BIOS, otherwise there are just proprietary SOLUTIONS, like phoenix/award, AMI and so on..................
Yes they already have that...............and there are libraries and the internet for them to get ALL THE INFORMATION THAT THEY ARE ENTITLED TO................which does not include proprietary intellectual property.Quote:
As the BIOS becomes more powerful, these critics argue, consumers must be allowed to freely develop their own alternatives to ensure that they keep control of their devices--and that means they need unfettered access to information.
My point is that there are NO standards for BIOS other than the one that I have given you.
No, you are getting confused.......hey, for something to be a "standard" it HAS to be open, or how in hell are you going to "standardise" it? :D
The issue of whether BIOS standards should be more clearly defined is another one entirely, and where I suspect you may be coming from?
Well that is down to them to find out..............there is no moral or legal law that obliges anyone to disclose their intellectual property. It is entirely up to the owner to do so with persons they chose to trust................generally ones they can sue the a$$ off if they screw up :rolleyes:Quote:
They want the BIOS specifiations to be a disclosed standard witch would allow other coders to produce code which is interoperable with current hardware and operating systems.
As I said before "caveat emptor"............and if you don't like it...........take up golf.