What are my odds? (MicroATX PSU-230W)

Hi, I'm about to purchase a new microATX motherboard along with a pentium 4 3.2 Ghz 800-FSB CPU. I already have the case, it came today. The PSU is only 230 Watts, though. I will also be installing two dual channel PC-3200 DDR-400 memory sticks, CD-RW drive, floppy drive, Nvidia PCI video card, Maxtor HDD, and a sound card.

My question is, what are my chances of having enough power to run this box until I can afford to buy a stronger+better quality PSU? And if there is even a chance, what components/peripherals could I attempt to do without to get it to run. Like, leaving out the PCI video card/floppy drive/sound card and using the onboard video/sound until I get the new PSU? Would this even work? I'm not aware of which components suck how much wattage and whatnot so I've come for help.

Here's exactly what I'm getting:

MOBO
CHIP
CASE


Thanks in advance.

No you are not................you bought a doorstop not a case.

You need at least 350watts and preferably 400 for what you are proposing.

Look for a case with at least 2 external 5.25 drives, 2 internal 3.5" drives 1 external 3.5" drive 4 USB 2.0 ports....................as a minimum.

;)

In the meantime, you can probably replace the CPU............DON't try to run with what you've got, you will risk frying the lot :eek:

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Originally posted here by nihil you bought a doorstop not a case.

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You make it sound like this wasn't the case I wanted. :p

I wanted this tiny case, I've already done the whole 4 foot case with the interior blown out thing... lol

If you weren't so helpful and I couldn't sense some sympathy in your post I'd almost be offended you called my tiny case a doorstop. :D

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Originally posted here by nihil
You need at least 350watts and preferably 400 for what you are proposing.

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So no go on booting this up with most options installed, huh? I can wait, and I intended to buy a bigger PSU so it wasn't like I was putting all my chips on that dinky PSU that the case came with.

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Originally posted here by nihil
In the meantime, you can probably replace the CPU............DON't try to run with what you've got, you will risk frying the lot :eek:

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I may be reading your post wrong, but are you saying I can run with this chip minus all the fancy peripherals or I shouldn't/can't?

OK, It will work I am sure, but you need to be careful. Unfortunately if you check out the replacement PSUs, you don't have a standard format, so I am not sure if that case would mount another style.

/me goes to get Dremel, diamond cutting disk, and miniauture welding kit :D

I would not worry about the 3.5" floppy..............they do not use a lot, and you don't use them whilst you are doing anything heavy duty. That will not be a problem.

I would hold back on the sound and video cards and just use what is on the MoBo ;)

Sure, I think that you will get away with it, but do watch your ventilation............tidy wiring, cable ties, away from wall ;)

And try to single task where possible.............errr.............. like playing game whilst updating Access database and saving graphics might not be a good idea at the same time.

The case is not one I know, but the company seem sound, and make their own PSUs, which is a good positive.

Please get one of those surge protectors.............when you are running stuff beyond 60% I get nervous..............a little kick down the mains might be all it would take.

OK on the final analysis, I would build it.................probably with a Duron processor, slower DDR Ram etc. and it would be fine for a person living in a bedsit, with little space and no great computing demands.

I feel that you will "get away with it" for a while at least, just be gentle huh?

Good luck, and have fun............and get back with any problems, you are always welcome

Nihil is right on this one, if a bid paranoid. (Which is not a bad thing) You probably want to with a bigger power supply.

However, this is my experience with low wattage power supplies. They burn up when overloaded. You will start to smell burnt electronics. I see that its a PowMax case. Personally I would not get near a Powmax power supply ever again. (As it almost started a fire in my house)

Here are a couple of images of my board after the PowMax power supply went bad.

Motherboard

Power Cord

The inside of the power supply was worse, but I chucked it before pictures because it smelt bad. Never the less, I dont buy cheap or low wattage power supplies anymore.

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Originally posted here by nihil
OK, It will work I am sure, but you need to be careful. Unfortunately if you check out the replacement PSUs, you don't have a standard format, so I am not sure if that case would mount another style.

/me goes to get Dremel, diamond cutting disk, and miniauture welding kit :D

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Hehhe... I already took a standard ATX PSU and put it next to the case; it dwarfs it! I will have to go with a microATX PSU or nothing at all. I'm not as brave as you, so I will leave the welding to the pros. Besides, if the case won't shut properly it won't be as pretty sitting here beside my monitor. :D

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Originally posted here by nihil

And try to single task where possible.............errr.............. like playing game whilst updating Access database and saving graphics might not be a good idea at the same time.

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I'll have to watch out on this one... I'm a multitask freak. :P

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Originally posted here by nihil

OK on the final analysis, I would build it.................probably with a Duron processor, slower DDR Ram etc. and it would be fine for a person living in a bedsit, with little space and no great computing demands.

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Fortunately, I'm not completely out of options (it'll just take a little house politics). My sister has a nice little 1.6 Ghz Pentium with 1?? something FSB that might be safer in the meantime. I'm sure she won't mind if I borrow it for a little while (extended while, that is). :lildevil:

Or, I could just use this 256mb stick of PC2700 ram from my current box and purchase a 400 Watt PSU with the money I was going to purchase the Dual Channel DDR-400 with. I've never had a Mobo that can handle Dual Channel ram, will it let me use this other DDR PC2700 stick in it? I know it can take 3200/2700/2100 Dual Channel, but Single Channel???

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Originally posted here by CXGJarrod
Nihil is right on this one, if a bid paranoid. (Which is not a bad thing) You probably want to with a bigger power supply.

However, this is my experience with low wattage power supplies. They burn up when overloaded. You will start to smell burnt electronics. I see that its a PowMax case. Personally I would not get near a Powmax power supply ever again. (As it almost started a fire in my house)

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Originally posted here by CXGJarrod

Never the less, I dont buy cheap or low wattage power supplies anymore.

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Sorry, missed this post.

I've never even heard of Powmax before to be honest, so I already don't trust them (for PSU's anyway). The case is the thing I mostly wanted. At any rate, I'm glad you posted with this testimonial.... I think I'm now too scared to even attempt setting up this PC with that PSU. I'll just have to be patient and wait for my next pay check. Patience is a virtue?! Hehehe.

I'd rather be damned than blow up this mobo and all my components.... I guess this whole "see if I can get away with it" thing is a no go.

Thanks for the posts.

As mentioned, Nihil is right about the power supply and what to do about it.

It's not the total amount of watts you are ultimately concerned with. Even 450watt power supply can suck, and there are plenty of them out there.
It's how much wattage each rail is consistently provided, including peak rail numbers. Any power supply that comes in a $30-odd case has all voltage rails connected together, bad move but what do you expect to get in a $30 case.
When the 12v and 5volt (floppy) rails demand more power, it'll overdrive the video card 3.3volt rail too. One voltage rail affects the others in a symbiotic relationship. Cheap is dangerous.

The power supply in the PowMax will be a non-standard size, sometimes it's even non-standard among M-ATX specs. You will have to shop around for a better brand, try Antec or Enermax. I almost exclusively use Antec power supplies, yes they are expensive but they have great features that save your butt and your motherboard's butt.

If you ARE going to run that power supply, use the motherboard video and sound for now, to be on the safe side. It should run this way, but I still don't like that !power supply!

If you think you are going to be playing a game, updating an Access database and whatever, all at once, you already are pushing the limits of the supply. When that cheap power supply is straining to provide the correct voltages and current, the cheap parts inside are going to give up for the day and go home, taking your motherboard with it. It's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN.

If you ARE a multi-task kinda guy, then these toy boxes are NOT for you.

Stick to midi tower as a MINIMUM, more space, more air flow, more chance of having a computer the following week :)

Build this toy, as just that, a toy.
Use it as and when you desire, but when the deamons [did you see what I did there :)] bite, fire up a proper sized box :D

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Originally posted here by foxyloxley
Build this toy, as just that, a toy.
Use it as and when you desire, but when the deamons [did you see what I did there :)] bite, fire up a proper sized box :D

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Yes, this box is definately just a toy box. I have built a mid-tower and tower box before just never one of these really small ones. Thought I'd give it a go. Call it a hobby when I'm not dead broke. :D

You know what, getting back to something nihil mentioned earlier. I think I'll just use this diablo 550 Watt PSU and let it sit outside the box where the other psu would have been mounted. If I take the current PSU out I can then just feed the cords through where it was sitting. The cords should be plenty long enough including the 12v. That way, I can put the side of the case back on and get all the good stuff back in the box and have it up and running. It wouldn't be any different than someone testing a psu on another box and not actually having it mounted.... It won't exactly be pretty, or permanent, but I think this option is probably the best for my impatient self at this point.

Seems newegg has around 10 microATX PSU's but none of the name brand ones get above 250 Watt. Anyone know of a place on the net to get name-brand microATX PSU's?

@

I'm not sure how my friend does it, but he runs a tiny Shuttle (name brand) system with an ATI X800 Video Card & AthlonXP @ 2.3GHz + 2x 80GB HDDs, about 3x 80mm fans and a cold cathode light. Fitting it into his tiny shuttle case was one heck of a dremel job, and boy does his PSU exhaust hot air. The sound of his machine powering up & running dwarfs the sound of my huge dual CPU rig... :eek:

But of course I have the heavy hitting processing power. Dual AthlonMP Bartons @ 2.43GHz. And a heavy PSU (Vantec Stealth 520...$120 IIRC) to feed them. :D


Anyways, I would keep away from PowMax.


The 550 watt PSU that comes in the blinged out Diablo case isn't considered great either when under a lot of load, but with a low-power system (such as a basic non-overclocked P4 system) you shouldn't stress it too much to cause problems.

When a cheap supply is under load, heat builds up and components malfunction. It might not produce voltages anywhere close to 12v on the 12v rail (ie spike to 14-17 volts if there is no good over-voltage protetion), and the DC Ripple/Noise can get crazy to the point where in 1 second the voltage can create spikes/valleys that might average out to 12v, but the damage would be done.


Anyways, good luck on the search for a decent PSU :)

That's some serious processing power you've got there, Tim! :D

I found a site that gives an idea of how many Watts are being drained by what: http://www.pcpowercooling.com/maxpc/index_cases.htm

Looks like CPU, MOBO, RAM, HDD, CD-RW are the big takers.... Not many can run a functional computer without those.

According to the numbers on that site if I put everything I have here in the box it would (or potentially could) consume 441 Watts! ?All at once, or just when in use? :confused:

If I had used that 230 Watt it wouldn't have started a fire; it would have started a bonfire!

Tim:

I was afraid that Diablo might not be up to par, but it does have a huge fan on the inside of it and a mid-sized fan mounted on the outside. I'm still gonna leave the Video/Sound/and floppy out of the case for now. That should save me 25 Watts or so?! I don't play video games or anything, so that shouldn't be a big problem.

Thanks for all the replies... you guys may have saved me a few hundred bucks and a liveable domicile.... :P

PCPower & Cooling is considered by pretty much everyone (including Maximum PC Magazine) to be the powersupply maker you want powering your computer.

But there are of course other people who have issues with their advertising and how they throw it around. Mainly since every other PSU on the market is rated at 25c (which I doubt your house is always at that temp, letalone your PSU) while PC P&C rates theirs at around 50c. Anyways, take their words with a grain of salt if you can't afford it (if you can afford it, get it and don't look back) because you can usually do pretty well with cheaper power (just look at the PSU's HP/Compaq/Dell/Gateway/IBM/etc put in their cheap(er) OEM machines).


I took some of your information and plugged it into this calculator: http://takaman.jp/D/?M=PcbAIQad@ce@cSpVEYaOP&english

I get 222.8 maximum wattage draw. But when you consider how most PSU's on the market are rated way beyond what they could ever achieve (they produce advertising numbers in ways that would boggle your mind), it would be smarter to look in the 400 watt range from a reputable company. Consider a Forton/Sparkle PSU, because those are generously endowed with power (rated more realistically/conservatively than most -- at times exceeding their rated output very easily). And Forton/Sparkle did at some point in time make PSU's for PC P&C, although I don't know who builds them now. Generally they're the same group or something...

So consider Antec's True/Neo series, maybe Vantec (they haven't been around too long, but I haven't heard stories of them blowing up and they're nice heavy suppies), Forton/Sparkle (awesome group). Those are the few I remember off the top of my head. Generally expect to spend $70 - $100 or so on a good PSU.

Also look at this thread @ [H]|Forums for recommended PSUs/companies and ones to avoid -- http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=792566

Thanks, Tim. You have been very helpful. Those links you provided were also really good.

I have some good news, though. I have opted to cut my losses and purchase a different MicroATX case. Maybe I'll sell the case on ebay one day or get an rma # for it and do that. I should have done my homework a little better and seen how hard it was gonna be to purchase a high watt, name-brand, microATX PSU. :(

Here's a link so you can take a look: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...154-016&DEPA=1

That one had a bunch of reviews and averaged 5 star on their little rating system over there. I read all of the reviews provided and people seem to be quite happy with this particular case. The width in the front of that case in 7" so that means it can take a regular sized PSU (I also noticed someone in one of the reviews had mentioned that). Thank God!!!

I will still take your advice and go with a named brand, high-wattage, PSU, though. I will NOT be using the one included with this case. It almost seems like they don't sell any microATX over there without throwing in one of those cheapo PSU's. I *should* get all this put together a few weeks... I'll post back with the screenshots and my results.

Peace.


:)

Hate to drag this thread up again. :o

Well, in an unforeseen twist in my favor it seems everything worked out ok afterall. The mobo in the box in my parents room was from an old Dell 2300 and it just happend to fit in that microatx case I bought (not sure why that never dawned on me). I'm damn glad I didn't use this thing for myself cause I had a hell of a time getting everything in it and the CD-RW isn't even in it! They never use that anyway. It ain't too pretty, but I thought you guys might want to look at what I ended up with. It's funny to me. I'll be getting an enermax 270 Watt for this box at a later date.

The PSU is being held down by velcrow. Image quality not so good:

Hey Hey,

This is the first time I saw this thread... Why is everyone around here so power hungry for PSUs?

I've got a full tower..
AMD 2500+
3 Case Fans
2 Optical Drives (1 Combo, 1 DVD-RW)
3 Hard Drives
Floppy & Zip Drives
Vid Card, Sound Card + Onboard Audio, 2 NICs
USB is connected to a printer, thumbdrive, iPod, Graphics Tablet, Forcefeed Back Steering Wheel, RumblePad, webcam, digital cam, card reader... yada yada ayda.

I've got a 350W PSU and it has no problems.

My Roommate is building a micro for his car... It's got a 145W PSU.. CD-RW, Proprietary Video Card, Floppy, HardDrive and that 145 powers it with room to spare. If you do the calculations required on most of these cards and devices, you should never need more than a 350W maybe a 400W and if yer running what this guy is running you could prolly spit and power the damn thing.

My Roommate was running a 350 w/ his tower without problem
AMD 1800+
4 Case Fans
4 Hard Drives
2 Optical Drives
Floppy Drive
and a shitload of other things.
He had to turn it on twice sometimes to start to harddrives spinning, but it ran fine after the harddrives had spun up... Now he's got a 400 and no problems, so how can you justify telling someone with so little hardware that they need such a big ass powersupply..

It's useless.

Peace,
HT

Quote:

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Originally posted here by HTRegz
Hey Hey,

This is the first time I saw this thread... Why is everyone around here so power hungry for PSUs?

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I realized the same thing today when I found this link. It was a real eye opener for me:http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page4.html

I think the article backs up your statement quite nicely.

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Why is everyone around here so power hungry for PSUs?

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Wasn't it already mentioned, HTRegZ?

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It's not the total amount of watts you are ultimately concerned with. Even 450watt power supply can suck, and there are plenty of them out there. It's how much wattage each rail is consistently provided, including peak rail numbers.

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Guess my name isn't "everyone".

I could have gone on to say that power supplies running at higher than manufacturer tested temperatures are not nearly as efficient and won't even meet the listed spec outputs. I wouldn't be surprised if manufacturers rated their power supplies at such high numbers but only based on low ambient test/room temperatures.

A case in point would eventually be @---@'s case, a heat holding no circulation little box of a thing with a low quality mini 230w power supply.

Not to mention:

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My Roommate was running a 350 w/ his tower without problem

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Oh yeah, no problems....??

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He had to turn it on twice sometimes to start to harddrives spinning

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Hmmm...sound like a problem to anyone?

But to your roommate's credit:

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Now he's got a 400 and no problems

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Guess he was exceeding peak loads on startup and need that larger powersupply.

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Originally posted here by @---@
I realized the same thing today when I found this link. It was a real eye opener for me:http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page4.html

I think the article backs up your statement quite nicely.

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I read that article too, after you linked it.

Whose statement are you saying that article backs up? HTRegZ?

[Chesire Cat grin]

Hey Hey,

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Originally posted here by ZT3000
Wasn't it already mentioned, HTRegZ?


Guess my name isn't "everyone".

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Nope.. I checked it's definately not everyone... it's ZT3000

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I could have gone on to say that power supplies running at higher than manufacturer tested temperatures are not nearly as efficient and won't even meet the listed spec outputs. I wouldn't be surprised if manufacturers rated their power supplies at such high numbers but only based on low ambient test/room temperatures.

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I could care less what a PSU is outputting or rated at... I've seen people say you need a 400W or 500W PSU... My roommates and my PCs draw combined maybe 350W.... We had to demonstrate power consumption for a landlord to prove we weren't abusing our all inclusive rent... That would mean my full tower is pulling 175W roughly.... What power supply can't do that (other than the 145W Micro he has)... sure ya need more for startup.. but you do the double start and all is well.

Quote:

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A case in point would eventually be @---@'s case, a heat holding no circulation little box of a thing with a low quality mini 230w power supply.

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The powersupply would still have been more than enough, as I said my roommates is running off 145W microATX PSU and it's in an acryllic case, with everything sitting on top of the motherboard... It's like a Rubik's Cube to attempt to put the thing together again, but it runs just fine.

Quote:

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Not to mention:


Oh yeah, no problems....??

Hmmm...sound like a problem to anyone?

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Not a problem at all... It's an annoyance... If you're call stalls every second or third time you drive it around, it's not necessarily a problem and not something everyone would run right out and spend money on...


Peace,
HT

Quote:

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This is the first time I saw this thread... Why is everyone around here so power hungry for PSUs?

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Well my original suggestion was 350-400 Watts. In the past I have built many machines with a 350Watt supply, if only because that was what came in the case. I have had no PSU problems, and take the view that the manufacturer gives a warranty and decides to put a 350 in the box, then they probably know what they are doing?

Recently, the cases I have bought have had a 400Watt supply, which possibly reflects more power hungry components. Once again, it seems to be the default value these days.

I go with ZT3000 on the idea that not all PSUs are equal in quality. That is why I like a reasonable safety margin, and tend to go for cases around the $65-$70 mark.

Also remember that your machine is not running at full belt all the time.................I just looked at the PSU in a new case and it is 180~400Watts. The concept is one of a safety margin, or margin for error. Most equipment run at half capacity will last longer and run better than something that is at its maximum capabilities.

As there is little difference in the price, why take the risk?

:)

Well, the reason we need to recommend 400+ watt PSUs is because in today's hugely mass-produced and cheap market economy, even "580 watt" PSUs fail to provide more than 300 watts of power that an enthusiast could reasonably expect to approach. In some cases these PSUs failed completely after only a couple of hours while outputting 300 watts. Recommending higher-rated PSUs is just our trying to get a person out of this problem the market (well, the marketers) has created.

For example, the POWmax Demon 580, aka Diablo 550. First, a name with "pow" in it doesn't seem to forshadow a good future. :p

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From: http://www.slcentral.com/powmax-demo...-psu/index.php

When I received my Powmax Demon 580W, the first thing I noticed is that it was lighter than any other power supply I had ever used before. Even thinking back to 250 AT power supplies I used back in 1996, I could only say "This thing is LIGHT!"

...

As usual, I opened the power supply up and inside I found about half as much "power supply" as any of the other power supplies I have reviewed today. Two ideas came to mind. Either Moore's Law now applies to power supplies and Powmax is far advanced from other manufacturers, or the two components on the PCB that look like capacitors are actually uranium isotopes. Yes people... The Powmax Demon is not a switching power supply. It's actually a miniature nuclear reactor.... and the red glowing is NOT derived from LED's! I'ts radiation!!! Ok... Maybe not.

The heat sinks are about as small as I've ever seen. They do not even run the length of the already small PCB. They only come up half way up the height of the housing and plateau into two little sheets of perforated aluminum.

...

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Anyways, nearly everyone in the PSU industry is guilty of this to a degree.

The only company I know that rises above this market game is PC Power & Cooling, with the pretty numbers bolded. Their 510watt rated PSU, the Turbo-Cool 510, was able to produce up to 642 watts while keeping the rails solid, and having no effect on the AC sinewave (inductive vs. capacitive skewing was non-existant with the Turbo-Cool 510), if clean power is your thing. (Pretty much ever other PSU does skew the AC wave quite a bit) Of course the PC P&C TurboCool 510 series starts at $200, so you want to consider that too. (I couldn't afford it in my build, though I still would absolutely love to have one)

Aside from PC P&C (and a few rare companies producing a specific PSU model to try and compete against PC P&C), the market as a whole plays the number game where the ratings don't reflect what you can actually get. So we have to consider that in purchasing upgrades if you want no problems related to power issues. (and of course leave room for the usual surge protectors, etc)

We might as well recommend something that can be used not only today, but well into the future. With dual-core, not only will heat be an issue, but solid power. You might as well be prepared. I know my Vantec Stealth is a powerful supply (though I have yet to see reliable numbers for it) and I plan to keep it through my current over-clocked power-hungry dual CPU system, and well into the future.



Anyways @---@, good luck with the Dell mobo in that machine. Hopefully it doesn't load it too much, though I can't imagine it does considering what my old HP used to have where the PSU was supposed to go :)

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Originally posted here by Tim_axe
..For example, the POWmax Demon 580, aka Diablo 550. First, a name with "pow" in it doesn't seem to forshadow a good future. :p

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LOL, good one.

It's either an abbreviation for "Pow"erless or Ker"Pow"!

Your choice.

(Another inexpensive PW with a really indicative name is "Sparkle". hehe)

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Originally posted here by Tim_axe


For example, the POWmax Demon 580, aka Diablo 550. First, a name with "pow" in it doesn't seem to forshadow a good future.

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G_r_e_a_t..... I'm one of the idiots who's actually using a powmax PSU and have been for well over a year. It's humming awfully loud in the case beneath my feet right now. Something to keep the feet toasty, I guess! :eek:

No fires, yet! :p

Got me an Antec 400 Watt on hand though, b-i-a-t-c-h!!! Heheheh..... Where's that screwdriver I had in here!? Any suckers on ebay want a coool, flashy tinderbox?!

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Originally posted here by ZT3000


(Another inexpensive PW with a really indicative name is "Sparkle". hehe)

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Hey, I heard sparkle is actually a reliable brand, though. Take that for what it's worth, afterall I'm the one with a powmax running my box. :rolleyes:

About the power hungry boxes... I experienced that a 300w rated psu from a mid market brand (aopen) wasn't enough to power up an AMD64 2800+, with 1 SATA hdd, 1 DVD rom, 1 120mm fan and 512M DDR, VGA and sound onboard... the problem was not enough power on the 12v rail. An Antec 350w psu had no problem att all powering such a box. Important is the combined power output on the different voltage lines without affecting the voltage rating.

So new power hungry components like the latest AMD64 and intel p4 cpu's, 7200rpm hdd's, and specially the new vga-cards like the ATI X800 or Nvidia 6800 need a decent power supply that can power your box with clean an stable power without getting to hot.

I would go with a not to high rated but decent power supply. Brand's I suggest, or trust when buiding a box:
- Tagan
http://www.tagan.com/main.htm
- Antec
http://www.antec.com
- Enermax

Keep in mind that today psu manufacturers make models with several fans, suggesting the more fans is better... this is not entirly the case. For the simple reason that those fans take up place where other (better psu models) have larger heatsinks or larger capacitors, you can also notice the difference in weight. So a so called fantastic psu cause it's not costly and has a triple fan design is probably a bad choice, better go for a design with less fans (1 or 2) but better components inside. Heatsinks generate no noise, are not moving and therefor much more reliable, and don't consume energy. When you take in mind that some manufacturers can build psu's without fan's, a pure fanless design (Silentmaxx Pro Silence, Yesico, Antec Phantom) you wonder why others need three fans? inferior design and show nothing more.