Illegal Immigration - Help Save the USA!

The conservative talk show I listen to on the way to work every morning had a guest speaker from Colorado named Frosty Wooldridge. The topic was the overwhelming swarm of illegal aliens from Mexico, their drain on our resources, influence on drugs and crime, and blurring of our national identity. On his website he has an enormous list of ways that we can help to let governors, senators, congressmen, media, etc. know that this is an issue that needs to be dealt with. It's never going to happen if people in a position of power think we'll just roll over. If you want to help, his website is rich with links to all the resources necessary to make it easy to let the government and media know what you think.

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If you are concerned about the consequences of mass immigration on our country and on the environment we are leaving to future generations, you are encouraged to take action. Specifically, this action must be focused on our administration and on Congress who are ignoring existing laws on illegal immigration and are effectively promoting unending U.S. population growth through both legal and illegal immigration. Here's what you can do:

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Frosty Wooldridge

There are links refering you to everything fom the successful Minuteman Project to finding out who your representatives are.

If nobody acts....the decisions will be made for us.

Hi mathgirl32,

I'd hate to disagree with you on this one but...as an independant observer...illegal mexicans are not a drain on the US economy...in fact they provide a service to the economy in general by doing low pay farm labor that most Americans would not do...if they were taking other jobs at the same rates I would agree but according to the facts I've read on this controversy in Canada the arguments against illegal immigrants and the economy are unfounded.
We too are involved in the same contraversy...except about legal immigrants taking our high paying jobs...leaving our own birth citizens with less opportunity.

Eg ;)

Why I, although conservative, don't mind illegal immigration so much:

1. They usually fill jobs that nobody here really wants to do - dishwashers and cooks in restaurants, farm labor, lawn care, and all those other back-breaking jobs that don't pay enough to attract us.

2. The jobs they work are obtained (usually these days) using a falsified social security number, meaning they are contributing to our Social Security, and Federal (and state for those of you with state income taxes) tax coffers, without ever having a prayer of ever getting any of it back.

3. They are willing to take substandard pay if they're being paid cash, or minimum wage for vast amounts of work if they're not - thus keeping our prices lower than the would be if these jobs were filled by citizens.

To the downside:

They come to our country and establish themselves, and some attempt to gain citizenship through 'less than legal' methods - marrying out of convenience (even though some already have wives or husbands in Mexico) for citizenship, having children by US Citizens, etc., to 'work the system' and gain access to the benefits accorded to us.

It's truly a 'tossup' on if the benefits they bring us are greater than the problems they create, but I'll end with this:

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses..."
Didn't your ancestors emigrate?

[edit]LoL egal, ya slipped your post in while I was typing this one... :D [/edit]

Yes, everyone says that. It's a played out argument. But in fact, they are a drain on the economy. You might say "oh, well, they are such hard workers", or "but they do all the work nobody else will do", or "because of them, the cost of construction in the south is so low", or "nobody else will work for the low wages they work for". Rubbish!

If employers were fined for hiring illegals, they would have to pay decent wages to non-illegals. That money would then be much more likely to stay in the country. That money would be taxed. Those workers would have health insurance instead of making legal citizens pay their way. Housing prices would go up a little...but more citizens would have jobs - because the employers would be paying better wages (to avoid fines from hiring illegals). That's better for the economy. We would not be paying for welfare, medical bills, taxes for prisons who house illegals convicted of crimes, etc. The list of benefits, to not just me, but to our country, far outweigh having to pay more for fruits and vegetable and housing.


*Edit* ...and Black Ice, you slipped your post in while I was responding to Egal's. :D

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DISTORTION

Negative impacts of mass migration aren't treated fairly in the media and elsewhere. A plethora of special interests promote mass migration through various techniques designed to emphasize only the benefits. Far too frequently the costs and consequences of mass migration are never mentioned.

Because of political correctness, a form of bias, writers distort the truth by promoting their agenda, typically liberal, and by avoiding objective reporting. For example, newspaper writers (using 'journalists' usually is a stretch when it comes to immigration) overdose the columns with immigrant and illegal alien 'heart-breakers.'

Politicians likewise distort the truth (like this is a revelation) to pander for ethnic votes.

Race-biased groups, under the veil of 'immigrant rights,' distort the truth to gain advantages for their special interest group.

The basic techniques used to distort mass migration, with possible counter arguments, are:

Immigrant / Illegal Alien Glorification. Mass migration proponents extol the virtues of immigrants and illegal aliens with glowing characterizations such as "hardworking."

Counter: Immigration glorification needs a reality check! There are plenty of lazy immigrants and illegal aliens. Our jails are over-flowing with immigrants and illegal aliens. Lower their glorification to the reality that foreign-born persons are neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Making generalizations is generally inaccurate and the issue is mass numbers.

Economic Benefits. Cheap labor advocates are prone to say something like lettuce will cost $10 a head without migrant labor.

Counter: Cheap labor benefits only a few and only over the short-run. The wealthy benefit by cheap labor but the middle and especially lower class suffer by having fewer and lower paying jobs. Taxpayers have to pay for the infrastructure costs or face declining quality of services. Competitors suffer too. Point out the unfairness and stress the long term.

Victimization. In order to justify rewards, illegal alien advocates portray illegal aliens as victims instead of law breakers. For example, many illegal alien 'rights' groups want an amnesty because the illegal aliens have worked hard and are just trying to improve their lot.
Counter: Agree that illegal aliens have indeed been shamefully exploited. However, the solution is to garner the American will to end acceptance of any underclass, not by rewarding those in the underclass and not by condoning existence of an underclass. Importantly, sanctions against employers of illegal aliens and protection of our porous borders are desperately needed. For more, see Solutions. Ask when and how the opponent expects to end the victimization.

Character Assassination. This is generally name calling of the messenger using direct or veiled accusations of racist, xenophobe or other derogatory characterization in an effort to avoid discussion of the negative impacts of mass migration. For example, The Denver Post tried to butcher the character of Rep. Tom Tancredo.

Counter: If anything, mass migration is an issue of nationalism, not racism. If appropriate, point out that the opponent was the first to bring up race, so is the opponent playing the 'race-card?' Ask for an apology and then raise the discussion back to the issue of mass numbers.

Perverted Fairness. Mass migration advocates often promote mass migration as a solution to global inequity of wealth.

Counter: While many of their claims of inequity may be true, the unconditional right to violate America's borders is not the solution. Poor people of the world can and should be helped where they are at. America should overhaul foreign aid to emphasize sustainable agriculture, libraries, and contraceptive access instead of giving cash and military hardware to despots. America should refrain from recruiting skilled people away from their homelands. With their perverted sense of fairness mass migration advocates generally choose immigrants and illegal aliens over the welfare of American citizens who bear the consequences and costs. The real issue is to whom fairness is due -- citizens or immigrants and illegal aliens. Immigration is not the solution to global problems.

Humanizing Distancing. A humanist-centric person might use word distortion even though the issue is acknowledged. Sometimes this humanist-centricity is called 'liberal guilt.' For example, mass migration advocates and the media call illegal aliens 'undocumented' to distance the reality of illegality to a status of legitimacy.

Counter: Use realistic words. If appropriate, embarrass them with their political correctness because 'undocumented' means the foreign-born have the unconditional right to violate America's borders and immigration laws.

Humanizing Avoidance. In this more extreme type of Humanizing Distancing (above) the issue is ignored because the problem is contrary to the opponent's humanist philosophy. Admission that 'undocumented workers' negatively impact health care, sprawl, environmental degradation, traffic congestion, and school overcrowding is not perceived as a humane story to expose and consequently the negative impacts are not attributed to mass migration. Typically the humanist holds a globalist perspective.

For example, school overcrowding is due to mass migration but it is blamed on "The Baby Boomer Echo". Arizona is a war zone of illegal invaders but we hear 'nary a whisper' about it. Border Patrol agent Kris Eggle was murdered by illegal alien drug smugglers but the story was ignored.

Counter: It is difficult to debate these rather abstract concepts, but we must try. Stress that these major impacts are due to mass migration and can no longer be avoided. Humanism is a worthy goal but to what extent should Americans sacrifice for the benefit of others? Despite injustices, illegality and invasion are not the solutions. Americans should take care of their own first. Stress patriotism and alternative solutions.

Humanizing Avoidance even shows up in the way statistics are accumulated. For example, school districts are by law prohibited from asking if children are illegal aliens. Anchor babies (children born in the US of illegal aliens) are counted as citizens.

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Egal you live in Canada so your observations on Mexican illegal immigration in specific, are moot.

1# Election fraud.

2# Hospitals are drowning on theses boarder states (free HealthCare) So, did illegal PapÃ* bust a nut for the 5th time in Margarita? Yeah, it's commonplace in Mehico. De mister Senior Boosh weel pay for hostbatal beel for mae. The philosophy is " hey we can have as many kids as we want and get first class, world renowned healthcare free of charge"

3# Not paying income taxes.

4# Majority of the money is exported(not spent in America).

5# Local funds wasted on their breaking of the law (Rape, Murder, Theft, Public intoxication, DUI, DWI (Tx), Serial Killer "Rail Road Killer" Angel Resendez aKa Rafael Ramirez! ) That **** cost money! Millions in resources from that bastard alone.

6# Federal funds wasted on exportation back to "mehico"

7# Jail resources, Pelican Bay state prison CA ($115 million annual operating costs, according to CDC). Thousands of illegal immigrants in that prison alone.

8# In America every state by law, you have to have auto liability insurance. Do you think they have that?

We could go on for days about how they are drowning the US economy, which would outweigh the benefits they give to the economy, local on up!

***Edit So the question is what is that crooked bastard Vicente Fox doing to his people that makes them want to risk their lives to get here?

So tell the class please how you propose we halt it?

Build a wall? They'll tunnel under it.

Put in a river? oops, there's already one there. They wade and swim.

Put out border patrol? We've already got that too, at a hefty expense to the taxpayer.

A fence? What is this? Berlin?

No matter how hard we try, illegal immigration will continue. There is just no stopping it. Ask the former leaders of the former USSR how well they stopped people from entering west Berlin from the east...oh, and while you're at it, look what happened in the end.

Our best bet is to try to find a solution that works, not keep on pumping coin into one that doesn't.

They send us mass-murderers? Ok, Ramirez. For every one you name, I can name 10 US Citizens off the top of my head who've done the same or worse.

They use our hospital care at taxpayer expense? Yep, so do 99.99999 percent of the Americans currently living under the poverty level. Gonna kick them out too?

Election fraud? I know MANY illegals currently living in my area. NOT ONE has ever voted in a US election nor do they intend to. They fear 'la migra' will come get them.

Jail resources or shipping them back - if we're closing our borders to them, this will continue.

The majority of money is exported - of course it is. They have families to support down Mexico way. Once again, however, we have to address the futility of attempting to stop them.

No liability insurance - ok, ya got me on that one, but let me ask you - how many folks do you know out there who're below the poverty level don't have it either?

Oh - one final word. Don't write off Egal because he's in Canada - his argument was sound.

Hi Imitation,

Like I said regarding Canada...we have the opposite problem...a deluge of legal immigrants taking our high paying jobs away...while your country is exporting low-paying jobs our university graduates often have to take low paying jobs as they are the only ones left...I personally know several people with university degrees who are or have worked in jobs usually allocated to student employment ( minimum wage jobs ) it's not very encouraging to see university graduates sweeping mall floors or flippin' burgers.
;)

Hi mathgirl32,

It is very difficult to find non-bias information on this subject through American resources...this is one of these topics that involves an agenda...either for or against...therefore the only reliable information is from independant sources...I would not put much faith in what you might read in America or Mexico on this issue...I would rather trust an independant report from an outside source who has nothing to gain either way.
;)

Personally, if you want to really improve the situation concerning low paying jobs...I'd go after all your corporations that are exporting those jobs...eg. NIKE who doesn't manufacture a single shoe in the US...stop buying their product.

And the argument concerning the drain on the economy doesn't fly...every minimum wage job is a drain on the economy by the same standards.They don't pay enough taxes and sometimes not at all, their healthcare must be subsidised and their social security, etc...

This is the reason you need an independant source...every argument against illegal immigrants is the same argument that can be used against every American with a legal sub-standard job.

The fact remains...someone has to do these jobs so that others who wont can benefit from them. Or are you willing to go get your own apples and eggs from the orchard and farmer respectively? There are benefits to having someone else do that for you.

I have personally gone out and bought eggs straight from the farmer...and slaughtered my own beef...are you willing to kill a cow everytime you want a steak...or do you like it all nicely packaged in the store?

Hi l3lacklce,

Thanks... :D

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So tell the class please how you propose we halt it?

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Fine the employers. It's as simple as that. But that's kinda hard with Bush's head way up the corporations' asses.

According to the Pew Hispanic Center ( http://pewhispanic.org/ - a Hispanics Rights Movement), out of the 2.5 million new jobs created last year, 1 million went to recently arrived Hispanics. 70% of them (that's 700,000 jobs!) were illegal. And who's suffering from this? The legal Hispanics.

According to the US Labor Department, 50% of America's farm workers are illegal. The government knows it (very well!), but they don't do anything about it - that would cost votes, you see... or money from the corporations...

ICE agents caught 245 illegal aliens working for Walmart when they checked a mere 60 Walmart stores. Walmart got to settle the case for $11 million - that's Walmart's revenue in 16 hours... big deal.

Maybe I should have entered the US illegally - then I wouldn't have to pay taxes, then I could get my education for free, get free health care, get a drivers' license without any problem...


Edit:

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The fact remains...someone has to do these jobs so that others who wont can benefit from them. Or are you willing to go get your own apples and eggs from the orchard and farmer respectively? There are benefits to having someone else do that for you.

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That's pure bull, Ega... do you really think there aren't enough legal Americans to work on farms? To clean toilets? To pick up the trash? To mow lawns?

Let's say there are 10 landscape companies in town, all hard-working companies with decently-paid employees with decent benefits. An 11th company enters the market and hires illegals. They pay those illegals $5 an hour and don't have to give them any benefits. In a year, the other 10 companies go out of business (who wants to pay $50 to have their lawn mown when you can have it done for $25?). It's not that the 10 companies can't find anyone to work for them - it's that they can't do it legally. And that is very very sad. So now those 10 companies have two choices: either cease to exist (read: being punished for following the law), or hiring illegals themselves. That's a loose-loose situation, Ega.

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Originally posted here by Egaladeist

And the argument concerning the drain on the economy doesn't fly...every minimum wage job is a drain on the economy by the same standards.They don't pay enough taxes and sometimes not at all, their healthcare must be subsidised and their social security, etc...

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Your argument, here, is invalid. You say "every" minimum wage job is a drain on the economy. Let's ignore the fact that that is not true (student workers, kids living at home, people working part-time for extra income)...and go with your statement. By your reasoning, you are saying that because minimum wage jobs are already a drain on the economy, you can't use the argument that illegals (working minimum wage) are a drain on the economy.

What???!

Hi Negative,

I am not suggesting that America should accept illegals...my argument is against the arguments raised that illegals pose an economic drain...which simply is not true...if they did not do these jobs then Americans would have to...and the drain would still be the same as those jobs would be of a low-paying nature anyways...resulting in the same arguments...that low-paying jobs are a drain on the economy...which again is true in every case where the overall cost exceeds the amount paid into.

And I could make an argument that even that is not true...and anyone who has any knowledge of economics can attest to...if I give you $1000...and you in turn spend that $1000 nothing is lost...it is the reinvesting of the economy...even though I suffered a personal loss of $1000 it is far from lost...the only time you lose money is when it leaves your country...and doesn't come back...this is a net deficit...a loss...as long as the money remains and continues to circulate it is benefitting the economy!

In local terms a community is hurt in the same fashion...when money " leaves " the community...someone's loss becomes someone else's gain.

Eg ;)

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I am not suggesting that America should accept illegals...my argument is against the arguments raised that illegals pose an economic drain...which simply is not true...if they did not do these jobs then Americans would have to...and the drain would still be the same as those jobs would be of a low-paying nature anyways...resulting in the same arguments...that low-paying jobs are a drain on the economy...which again is true in every case where the overall cost exceeds the amount paid into.

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If they did not do these jobs, then Americans would do them, and they would get paid for it decently. Those jobs aren't low-paying by nature... those jobs are low-paying because of illegals.

"those jobs are low-paying because of illegals." And, may I add, because our government has no balls and won't implement fines (across the board as SOP) for hiring illegals.

Hi Negative,

I think the person at Burger King would disagree. I fail to see how these farm opportunities would become better paying jobs...and you are speaking to someone who has worked on two farms...my first two jobs were on farms...a pig farm and a horse farm....and neither paid well! ;)

Hi mathgirl32,

Like I said...my argument is an economic one not a social or political one...illegal immigrants can certainly raise other issues but you haven't convinced me on an economic level. to convince me of that you would have to prove that the loss factor outweighs the economic benefits that are derived from them in production value.

Eg ;)

The federal government has been forced to subsidize hospitals because of the high cost of treating illegal aliens.

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The largest allocations this fiscal year are going to California, which will receive $70.8 million; Texas, $46 million; Arizona, $45 million; New York, $12.3 million; Illinois, $10.3 million; Florida, $8.7 million; and New Mexico, $5.1 million.

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http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health...tml?source=rss

keep in mind these are just the government subsidies and do not reflect the entire cost.

There’s also the cost of educating their children. Yes I know their not very prolific but if they paid their fair share of taxes it would feel a little more fair to me.

But all of this is really irrelevant. The real issue to me is that our borders should be a little more secure then they are. If uneducated and unorganized people can just make a mad dash across our borders by the thousands what about the well financed and dedicated terrorists who plan for months to do this?

Now you're messing with logic again, Egaladeist. I say that wages went down because of illegal immigration, you say that I said that they would go up without illegal immigration - that's not quite the same.

If an employer follows the law, he'll pay his employees at least the minimum wage. Low-paying? Definitely - but still minimum (legal!) wage.
If an employer doesn't follow the law, he can pay his employees whatever he wants. Those illegals work for less than the minimum wage, and that's the entire problem.

Company A follows the law and pays its (legal!) employees the minimum wage.
Company B hires illegals.

Who do you think is going to stay in business?
Being punished for following the law is what it's all about again...

Hi Tedob 1,

Again that is not an economic issue...it is a social concern...the same appies to all sub-standard employments...
now if you were to argue that these illegal immigrants are taking up the bed space in hospitals that rightfully belong to legal citizens I would agree! Then you would have a legitimate argument on social policy!

Hi Negative,

These are just some people exempted from minimum wages...there are many others not included including some businesses that do not involve themselves in interstate commerce...farm workers are not under minimum wage laws...US Department of Labor can be checked...



* Agricultural employees who are immediate family members of their employer
* Those principally engaged on the range in the production of livestock
* Local hand harvest laborers who:commute daily from their permanent residence, are paid on a piece rate basis in traditionally piece-rated occupations, and were engaged in agriculture less than thirteen weeks during the preceeding calendar year
* Non-local minors, 16 years of age or under, who are hand harvesters, paid on a piece rate basis in traditionally piece-rated occupations, employed on the same farm as their parent, and paid the same piece rate as those over 16.


Eg ;)

Egaladeist > Supply and demand, Economics 101. To make it entirely clear, someone took the time to graph out the shifting of the supply & demand curves :)

http://www.cuzwesaidso.com/archives/000305.html

To:black!c3

I see that most of your argument here is: "we have it already what's
the difference", which is backwards ass thinking if you ask me.

I assume you just extrapolated what might justify your current argument
there? You seem to be offended at any future means of management,
that's all we want, controlled management. Other countries have
controlled borders. :halo:
*sigh* Oh, please, you don't think the US has the wherewithal and
technical knowhow to build an impenetrable structure? We have rovers
on Mars and Voyager is damn near out of our Solar system!
We're the only non-3rd world country that doesn't maintain its borders
like we do.

That quagmire you're calling "Border patrol". If indeed you're
calling the current system "Border Patrol", you are wrong! That's more
like passive look the other way control (political, their commands are
coming from their superiors, who are coming from the
politicians) i.e. the Mexican Vote.

"They send us mass-murderers" Thanks for proving my point! Every
country send us all your bad guys, we're open for the taking, plenty of
little blond haired 8 year olds playing unsupervised. Point
being, we have our own homegrown crime to worry about,
we didn't need an extra serial killer on our soil. Besides, he probably
cost taxpayers more money because he didn't fit the usual white
profile. If you don't get that point, it's useless chatting.

Again, I assume you just extrapolated what justified you current argument there?

About the Hospitals, what's your point? Again, we have our own
homegrown, non-illegal people to tend to. At least you know why they
are drowning! Take Take Take.....Take. You think it would help if they
paid some taxes too, besides just at the local quick-e-mart? (Which is
the point) :halo:

Voting Fraud: How do you know? Please tell me you're not denying this
happens in your state? How do you explain the anomaly of the color of
those southern most counties on your boarder?

Yeah, don't forget the drug dollars making their way out, too. A
connected coyote illegally here ruining peoples lives. Send out
money, buy drugs cheap, smuggle them in, make more money, and repeat
the process. The war on drugs is extremely taxing too, and from a small
portion of those funds they could have built a barrier! (Political)

I don't expect you to correspond with that line of thought, as I'm sure you wouldn't expect me to correspond with yours either?


Yours truly, !mitationRust :halo:

Hmmm,

Interesting, whilst I obviously know nothing about the American scenario, I would comment that the issue of illegal immigrants and "asylum seekers" (economic refugees) is becoming something of an issue in the EU as well. In fact it was quite a point in the recent UK election campaigns.

Basically you cannot let it go on uncontrolled and unlimited forever. No country can, its infrastructure cannot support it. There are only a certain number of persons who can be absorbed over a period of time, and you certainly cannot expect local government to handle large and sudden influxes in very localised areas.

Now, we have a substantial number of legal migrants, both permanent and temporary. A lot of these are skilled or specialist workers (artisans and craftsmen) who are filling the gap caused by the breakdown in our apprenticeship and vocational training system. We don't have the people, there are none in the pipline, and we need the skills NOW!

If you want a stonemason, a cabinet maker, a watchmaker etc..........the chances are that they will not be English. It is not that these jobs are badly paid ($35-70k) it is just that we don't give the training, so we don't have the people.

We also have a fair number working in agriculture, either as permanent or seasonal. They are actually considered to be a positive asset to the economy, and if they suddenly disappeared, there would be a dramatic downturn in some local economies.

I think that my message is that these things need to be managed and regulated. Perhaps one of the ways to do this is to relax the regulations for people who are going to make an obvious positive contribution? If my observations in the UK hold good, the people who are most concerned about illegal immigrants are the legal immigrants.

And BTW if you are a qualified dental surgeon we will pay your passage club class............no need to wade across muddy rivers :D Would you believe that I have to make a 472 mile round trip?

Just my $0.0374

:)

Hi Imitation...nihil,

No argument...! As you are not arguing an economic argument! ;)

Hi Negative,

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Egaladeist > Supply and demand, Economics 101. To make it entirely clear, someone took the time to graph out the shifting of the supply & demand curves

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You must have missed my last post...it is the US government that allows farmers to pay less than minimum wage.

Supply and demand is not an argument against illegal immigrants...it's effects are much wider and are not confined to a particular group...the site is trying to get it's point across by appearing legitimate...this is what I meant about not placing faith on those with an agenda ( not you...the site you listed ).

I do not have a stake in this either way...US immigration policy or minimum wage laws do not affect me...therefore I can look at this from an objective veiwpoint...

do you have social concerns that need to be addressed by the influx of illegal aliens...Yes...is it an economic concern...No...or, at least, I haven't seen any evidence of it.

I do agree, however, that if there were not illegal immigrants those jobs would be taken by Americans...that, again, is a social concern about who gets the job...not an economic argument.

Eg ;)

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About the Hospitals, what's your point? Again, we have our own
homegrown, non-illegal people to tend to. At least you know why they
are drowning! Take Take Take.....Take. You think it would help if they
paid some taxes too, besides just at the local quick-e-mart? (Which is
the point)

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About the hospitals… too many see the illegals as only taking the low paying jobs and that’s it. There’s more to it than that. These people are costing us a bundle.

For them to pay taxes they would have to be legal aliens.

Your right about how our quality of life has been going steadily up hill due to the high customer service standards being adhered to by those filling these low paying jobs. Not.

I’m on the same side you are …I think

Yep Rust, and I bet you're pretty proud of that halo too...

Let me attempt to bring the language down to where everyone can understand the point I was trying to make:

It's not going to stop.

Just as in computer science anyone will tell you there's no such thing as a completely secure system, in reality, there are no such thing as completely secure borders. If we were to line up every cop and military person serving the US along our borders, they would *still* try to get in, and some would succeed.

And yes, "send us your criminals" is precisely what I'm saying. Our nation was founded by criminals - religious traitors, political dissidents, murderers, burglars, beggars, and thieves, and any other kind of outcast you can think of. We haven't done too badly so far eh?

Consider Australia for a moment too - it's non-aboriginal citizens are all descendents of criminals. The place was a bloody prison to start out! Have they done so badly either?

To close our borders and our eyes to the world is to commit suicide as a nation. China learned that lesson the hard way. Would you have us learn from their mistake or find out for ourselves?

As for border patrol, I submit to you that the officers serving there are every bit as well trained if not better trained than the police officers in your hometown. Have you ever served as a border patrol agent to contradict me on this?

As for the mass-murderers, you named one. I proved nothing for you other than to say that problem just like all the others already exist here. Wouldn't our moneys be better spent solving those things than pouring cash into the bottomless pit of trying to keep our borders closed?

Voting fraud - turn it again - how do you know it IS occurring, and that illegal immigrants are part of it?

Hospitals - not only are the poor overloading our hospitals, our veterans are. I'm one of the ones who gets free hospital care on your tax dollars. I also get free drugs too, and because my income is low, I get paid travel expenses for going to the hospital. 100 percent of all honorably-discharged veterans are eligible for that care. Welcome to the good ol' USA. Would you deny those who fought for your freedom that same care? I promise you Illegal Mexicans aren't taking it away from us, either in actual care, pharmacuticals, or standard of care.

Drug dollars - easy enough to fix. Legalize marijuana. Support NORML. :D Smoke one for me while you're at it, but tax it first.

You are absolutely correct in your assumption that we'll never agree on this issue. Polish that halo a bit more for extra points.

Wanna fix the prison problem? It's simple enough - enact the death penalty for everything stronger than a parking violation. Enforce it. Eventually there won't be enough of us left to keep the country populated.

I forgot to add, they are managing to wander on to our live firing ranges (tanks, aircraft, etc..) on our military bases. That cost money to halt operations, and with the cost of fuel it's really taxing. Not to mention that's interfering with combat training, which is interfering with security of our nation. A small interference, but an interference nonetheless.


Bottom line it's not fair to people like Negative. I would think that would be the state where you would get the biggest slap to the face. Plus the majority doesn't want them here. We can have and do what we want, we're AmeriCans.*right Negative* :D

Hi Imitation,

I agree with l3lacklce on a philosophical level...which is what his argument seems to be...

we seem to have three arguments going at once...an economic...a social...and a philosophical...

as for Negative...I doubt he is personally affected by mexican illegals.

As for not wanting them here...again, that is a social issue...eg. they are taking jobs away from Americans...this is not an economic argument.

Personally, I would be much more concerned if they were taking away the higher paying jobs as immigrants are here in Canada.

Eg ;)

Hi,

Once again I would emphasise that I am only commenting on parallelism across the pond :)

Over here we have a private health sector, and a public ("free") one..............the NHS (National Health Service) is the free one. ER is exclusively within the public sector (apart from military outfits) and they just do their job, without question, because they know who is going to pay.........the taxpayer.

We currently spend OVER $21 Billion on this service each year.

Now, this bit may be of interest?

If I use a doctor under the NHS, I don't pay him anything, and he claims his money from the NHS (government), the same thing with eye glasses and dentistry (although I have to make a fixed scale contribution). As soon as I do this I am on the social benefits and tax people's radar.........the only way to stay off the screen is to go private.......which for an illegal means that your livelihood has to be drugs or vice..........something criminal............maybe this is what is missing?

Now, we have "exploiters" the gang bosses who import illegals, find them work and accommodation etc and would cover their medical needs............. if only to cover their own a$$es :(

My crude extrapolations based on population suggest that for the USA to provide a similar NHS service would cost $100+ Billion a year?

Two questions:

1. What is the current spend on free medical services?
2. What is your minimum wage?

Cheers

HI nihil,

We have universal health care here too...which is overloaded and overworked and many nearby Americans cross the border for their free health care...and we give it without question...as our policy is if you need it you get it ...our hospitals do not turn anyone away.

General,

These technically are illegals using our services at the cost to our tax payers...should we refuse service based upon them not being legal residents?
To live in a free society there are things you must expect are going to happen...else, as l3lacklce said, you had better close your borders and hunker down and become an isolationist...this is the philosophical argument.

Getting back to the economic argument...if you could show how an American earning the same farm wage as the illegal mexican is not a drain as opposed to the mexican...I would agree...now someone will say that the American is paying taxes...maybe...but they are still spending the same amount of money...it does not matter whether it goes to taxes or the local tavern...it is being spent and therefore is benefitting the economy...refer back to the post where I give Neg $1000.

so far this has been the only possible valid economic argument against illegals...

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4# Majority of the money is exported(not spent in America).

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as I said...the only time you incur loss is when it leaves and doesn't come back.

There are two kinds of debt...debt you owe yourself and debt you are owed...the national deficit is misleading because it doesn't differentiate between the two in figures...the debt the country owes to itself is meaningless ( stocks, bonds, etc... )...the debt it owes out of country is very meaningful...the debt that the government is owed by foreign bodies ( trade deficits, etc... ) are very meaningful....to get a true deficit you subtract what you owe out of country from what you are owed in...and that is your true deficit...plus or minus...personal debt whether yours or the governments is as I said...meaningless in overall economics...I give you $1000, I'm out a $1000, and you're up $1000, it's still there...it's just changed hands.

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That's pure bull, Ega... do you really think there aren't enough legal Americans to work on farms? To clean toilets? To pick up the trash? To mow lawns?

Let's say there are 10 landscape companies in town, all hard-working companies with decently-paid employees with decent benefits. An 11th company enters the market and hires illegals. They pay those illegals $5 an hour and don't have to give them any benefits. In a year, the other 10 companies go out of business (who wants to pay $50 to have their lawn mown when you can have it done for $25?). It's not that the 10 companies can't find anyone to work for them - it's that they can't do it legally. And that is very very sad. So now those 10 companies have two choices: either cease to exist (read: being punished for following the law), or hiring illegals themselves. That's a loose-loose situation, Ega.

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This again is a social argument...and I agree on that basis.

As for the first part of your quote...at the present farm wages I would be hard pressed to think otherwise...if you were to raise the wage to make it more attractive then the same argument applies whether you are talking about illegals or legals...it doesn't matter who has the job from an economic standpoint if both are spending and benefitting the economy.


Eg ;)

OK Eg~ you asked for it................but remember I can only use my limited European experience :)

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These technically are illegals using our services at the cost to our tax payers...should we refuse service based upon them not being legal residents?

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I will take that one first because it is the easiest. The problem has arisen because the person is there in the first place. That is NO excuse to renage on your humanitarian duties? Hey! that would be like banging your head against a wall and taking aspirin because you have a headache?

It has been many years, but when I was a young and handsome auditor, I hooked up with this young NY journalist in London (England, not Ontario :D) Now she could live over here quite comfortably (and legally) on her UK salary. She paid local income and welfare taxes. So I was given the job of filing her US tax returns........................Naturally I invoked section 485 of our dual taxation agreement, and the IRS informed me that she was entitled to a $17,500 rebate if she earned qualifying income in the next seven years.

I naturally wrote to her old man, and suggested that he employ her as a "press secretary" in the big law firm he was senior partner of.................cheeky bugger offered me a job..............and he would have "fixed" the paperwork................so, I think would the IRS with whom I have always had a very amicable relationship.

My point here is that in most OECD countries the losses through tax evasion and benefits fraud, by far outweigh the cost of illegals.

Last figures I saw over here was that fraud/evasion was running at $25 Billion a year (USD)

Maybe we should clean up our own nests before complaining about the birds nesting next door? :D

just a few thoughts, I have no argument as such................I live too far away

Hi nihil,

I agree...this is an American problem that has nothing to do with me...but... :D ...it's been so long since I've had a good argument that I couldn't help myself...I've been starving for things to sink my teeth into :p

Eg ;)


EDIT: From an economic standpoint...as said...whether you're talking about a community or an entire country...as long as the money is not leaving it has no economic consequences...

I give you $1000 and you take that $1000 and give it to someone else...I'm out $1000, you are out $1000, the guy who has it is up $1000...the money has just changed hands...there is no economic loss.

This is where BUY AMERICAN or BUY CANADIAN comes into play...every time you buy make sure the money is staying put...if it's leaving then you are a drain on the economy.

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as for Negative...I doubt he is personally affected by mexican illegals.

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Depends on what you mean by "personally"... what I had to do to get into the States legally, though, was outrageous: $2,000 in lawyer fees because it's impossible to figure it out yourself, (long!) interviews with Homeland Security and Immigration, complete FBI background check, fingerprinted and put into every single law enforcement database, special requests to be able to take my Texas drivers' license tests... and guess what: I needed a completely blank criminal record - without one, they wouldn't have let me stay.

It's completely understandable, and I didn't really have a problem with it. But I do have a problem with others not having to go through it and getting more benefits.

Hi Negative,

I agree...there are so many social problems associated with this that it would be the much better argument...I myself oppose many aspects of immigration because I believe you cannot successfully help others from a position of weakness...one must of necessity first and foremost make his own house strong...then help from a position of strength.

Illegals should not get a free ride...they should have to go through the same channels as everyone else.

Eg ;)

Ah yes, the Illegal Immigration debate that seemingly ends nowhere.

Yes, most of our ancestors where immigrants, but they came through New Yorkand elsewhere (aka legally). Really thinking about it, the true Americans where and are the Native Americans. But such concerns are in the past and we are left with what the past generations left us with. Nothing more, nothing less.

Illegal immigration is a problem and will aways be a problem. One thing I would like to point out is that it is not only Mexicans pouring in illegaly but also Asians, slavs, etc, etc.

Everyone falls upon the point that illegals take the **** jobs noboby wants. Well I know plenty of people that would take these jobs if they would (1) pay a decent wage and (2) stop spraying pestacides on them as they work (in the crop picking jobs, a known fact). Second on this, I seen plenty of Mexicans working at fast food joints, supercenters, gas stations, etc. Stereotypically teenager and current (during school) college student jobs.

Illegals getting the easy way out just by jumping the borders is degrading to legal immigrants who worked hard and paid deeply to get their citizenship for this country- past and present. To put the cherry on the cake, we pay servitude to these people- their language on the food packages, making our kids learn the language, celebrating their independence day (Cinco de mayo- wtf, you don't see us German- Americans making you celebrate Unity Day!), etc.

Everyday President Bush and his cronies say they we need to give up certain freedoms to become safe again. And yet, the borders are left wide open. How can this ensure safety!?! It contradicts itself. During World War two, we patroled the borders for spys with US marshals and civilians and where highly sucessful. You can not tell me we can not do the same? Especially with the advanced technology we have today!!! As you see with the Minutemen, who are gladly stepping up to protect the borders, the government can still today rely on us to help out. It just shows you that this administration does not care- if you did not see it already. We, if not already in it, are coming to a new world order. This denying of adaquite border protection is only creating a borderless Amerika and destroying our sovereignty.

As of American citizens crossing the Canadian border for medicare, they are in the same boat. But this, in my opinion, is showing how bad our medicare has become and with the current problem with inflation cause it to be worsened. This is another problem occurring in the states.

In light with the current Administrations world domination policy, why don't "we" just take over Mexico :rolleyes: ? We really wouldn't have to fight for it; they would probably just hand it over. Make it another state or colony( like peutro rico). That way we can improve the infrastructure and by doing so improve the lifes of Mexicans and Americans for generations to come. Also, it would solve half, if not more, of the border problem. By doing this, we can save money, lifes, expand our military, and have a better vacation place than Flordia :p . hrmm....


kurt

Hi kurt_der_koenig,

A sound social argument...if this avenue was addressed as vigorously as the economic argument...then I could see actual benefit arising from it...because the economic argument will always fail to provide change as it is a weak argument for anyone to stand on...

social change is an avenue that has a great deal of success in the last 40 years...that is where you should place your bets.

Eg ;)

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why don't "we" just take over Mexico

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Next Canada

wouldnt put it past your current administration

we have lots of oil\water\trees...and vacation land too :(

MLF

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Originally posted here by kurt_der_koenig
As of American citizens crossing the Canadian border for medicare, they are in the same boat. But this, in my opinion, is showing how bad our medicare has become and with the current problem with inflation cause it to be worsened. This is another problem occurring in the states.

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A perfect example of why these border problems continue. Think of this whole scenario as a pressure cooker....or something. The flood of U.S. citizens into Canada seeking reasonably priced healthcare / medicine and the tide of illegal immigrants coming to live in the U.S. from south of the border is the steam. This steady stream of steam will keep the pressure cooker from exploding. Now, look at the pressure cooker as Mexico's government (or the U.S.'s government if it makes you feel better). As long as the steam escapes....the government will never be forced to look internally to address the real problems...and fix them!

To:Egal
If Africa was connected to your country and your hospitals were swamped to past capacity, I bet your little policy would change about accepting people for free.

Do people really think that hospitals take the hit for this? No. They do what Wal-Mart does when people steal from them; they bump up their prices.

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Would you deny those who fought for your freedom that same care?

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Hold up a ****in nanosecond! In no way, shape, or form will you catch me saying that. But now your wild ass suppositions are pissing me off! Why do you keep going back to before 1845? We own Texas; it's not one with Mexico or Spain anymore. We are different, Mexico, Africa, China etc....

Berlin wall? Spanish colony of New Spain, to the Republic of Texas, to the Texas Annexation of 1845. Bottom line, we own the mofo now, it's property of the US and we can build what we want on the border whenever we want. We can function just fine without the Mexicans.

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"Just as in computer science anyone will tell you there's no such thing as a completely secure system"

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"Computers are nothing more than a collection of finite logical switches. It is not only possible to make something perfectly secure, but it has already been done by the good people at Ford Aerospace." ~ catch
Plus, checkout Kernelized Secure Operating System (KSOS6), (KSOS11), STOP, LOCK, SMG, AITOS, and Gemini. When you figure out why nukes haven't been launched you let me know.;)

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"Our nation was founded by criminals - religious traitors, political dissidents, murderers, burglars, beggars, and thieves, and any other kind of outcast you can think of. We haven't done too badly so far eh?"

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Jesus_H_Christ...No comment, if you're trying to apply that past rebellion to current day problems. Plus the Canadian "eh", it was too much.

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To close our borders and our eyes to the world is to commit suicide as a nation.

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I don't know where or why you fabricated this farce but it's quite silly? Surely you jest here? Control not isolation! For starters how about a real immigration policy for one?

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As for border patrol, I submit to you that the officers serving there are every bit as well trained if not better trained than the police officers in your hometown. Have you ever served as a border patrol agent to contradict me on this?

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This is trivial, and you know why? Well, to quote Putin: "you're wrong and you know you're wrong". That "patrol" is overwhelmed by; say a ratio of 10,000 to 1.

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Voting fraud - turn it again - how do you know it IS occurring, and that illegal immigrants are part of it?

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Christ, it's pointless chatting if you're going to pretermit voting fraud. I'm through here; I said what I wanted to say.

Ola:

I will have to respond to this debate later. However, I thought this interesting news had to be posted here. My apologies if anyone already jumped on this:

Mexico's Fox toughens talk on U.S. immigration law

For those who want the meat of the quote:

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Mr. Fox made the comment Friday during a public appearance in Puerto Vallarta, saying: “There's no doubt that Mexican men and women — full of dignity, willpower and a capacity for work — are doing the work that not even blacks want to do in the United States.�

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Here is some of the fallout from Mexican President Vicente Fox's comments:

Mexican leader criticized for comment on blacks

Mexican President not sorry for slur

Ok - one quick opinion on this - immigrants - YES! I'm all for it. Illegal immigrants - from any country - NO! You can definitely come here, that's what this country is/should be about, but everyone who is not born here, needs to follow the policies, guidelines - the law in order to become a citizen, that is, in part, what I helped to defend while in the service. If those laws are not followed and adhered to, then you and your lot are criminals and should be punished - of course that whole course of action, starts another tirade.

Also - my father was talking to me yesterday about the Draft coming back. He believes, that if a draft is invoked by this current administration, that it will in fact, drive out immigrants from the US. I wonder if that would work for politicans? I mean driving them out. Supposedly when Bush-master was re-elected, a slew of celebrities were going to leave the US - did they?

soapbox
Finally - one last topic - that is off-topic for this thread - but I'm all fired up dag-nab-it. With all the US hating going on, I am thinking of starting a push somehow/somewhere - this being once I am educated on the topic more, that our country pull back all troops, aid, big-nosing into other people's/country's affairs, and concentrate on our issues as a country. Our family had a huge argument about the US and involvment across the globe. I think we have too many issues of our own to deal with, and we should pull out of everywhere - well fix what we can first, then pull out and not "help" anyone until we have cleaned up our own issues. I think we have reached a point of diminished returns and are on a sliding slope down to our own demise if we continue on the current path. Sounds like the EU, China and Russia want to be the Super Powers - I say let 'em - because it's soooo much fun. I think the US should become like Switzerland.
/soapbox

Buenos noches.