******HDD odd********

I usually never need help with hardware, but man I think I may have experienced an anomaly with this girl’s hardrive..... My girlfriends-friend-of-a-friend.... **** I don't really know who this piece of **** belongs to. Anyway, It's supposedly a HP HDD, few years old. It had Windows ME on it last year w3 gave them a better old board and installed a (( r4k3d Xp on it. Since ME is part of the SUE line it offers no assurance and is practically out of the scope of security talk. I'm the one who overheard someone was on Windows ME shopping online...and I was the one who offered to secure that HDD .... so that makes me pretty much the one who needs to make it right again.

I decided to give this girl a newer board; this one's only a year old. So I asked for the HDD back so I could hook it up to this nice box, nice round IDE cables, great air flow, you'd be proud of the airflow....etc I'm real proud to give away this great secondhand box.

I hook this HDD up, start the install..... it hangs during the final install around the " approx 30 minutes left" stage....... so I retry... same thing. No problem...... I go Autoclave on this bitch for 10% passage..... **** still hangs on " approx 30 minutes left" stage...... I grab a Solaris image, it installed just fine... I grab a Libranet image, installed just fine... Slack just fine........ try XP again, hangs on the "approx 30 minutes left" stage............... WTF.... I did a full Autoclave on that bitch it still hung up.............WTF guys have you ever heard of this??????????????????

I already ordered her a new 20gig WesternDig..... but before I take this HDD apart, I wanted to get your Op's. Thanks, no rush.


BTW: I've tried 4 different CD-ROMs, different cables, different, boards...the OEM disc I'm borrowing works great, I cleaned it and tried it on another drive....It's the HDD for sure.....I also hooked it up right away when I got it to see how my C2-TFM-configuration held up on a seriously naive end user running on a limited account with no password and an admin password of 1 character 1.....no updates.....It booted in under 30 seconds.... I was impressed, mother****er was clean, and process list after a little over a year was at 20 processes, the same when it left. It looked like she used it a bit too, I'll find out how much later. .


I think this HDD just died, but it worked with linux...and there's more than enough RAM, a gig of SDRAM in this secondhand box??????


Enlighten me, thrall me with your acumen.

Small thing that got me going once

disable all shadowing chaching and other similar stuff.

(this will make the box really sloooooow)

[edit]

Wait that wont work cause that was a memmory issue. Sorry no help from me.

[/edit]

MEMORY!!!

how many sticks in the machine.. if more than 1 remove all except 1.. and try the install from there..

The winXP installer is trucken fussy .. and will cause various errors ...includoing missing files, file copy errors etc..

when you say hang, how long are you waiting? "Just walk away man, walk away..." ;)

You could try getting the latest IDE driver and forcing that to load before XP starts the install. On server it's F6 to load drivers before the intallation. But I am just guessing like a monkey.

Wow, not sure what kinda leap it is to go from "it works fine under Linux" to "it's the HDD that's died". Hardware is hardware, if it works, it will work. If other software is working fine on a given set of hardware, start working towards it being a software related issue. Hit up the XP support site and start poking around for similar hang issues. IIRC there's a bug in certain versions of the XP installer that won't install it properly with more than 512MB of ram, or it could just be because you're using a cracked version of XP. Maybe try with a legitimate one?

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Maybe try with a legitimate one

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lol

It just wanted to talk to the NET.......thanks for the replies.******Sorry about the wording, sould've been more clear, Izza tired last night.

I'm asking here?
Here's what I was thinking last night.............the disk writer starts its writing at the center of the Hdisc right? The more gigs you write the further from the center it writes right? Is this true? I'm not really in to magnetic forensics, but I think I'm slowly becoming inquisitive.

Is it possible that it could've had some corrosion after a certain point, beyond what *nix needed to install, but the writer tried to write over that damaged point with XP.....making it hang??????


There’s over a gig of sdram in this secondhand box I'm installing on (giving away). It has a castrated PIII.

OEM's legit for until you register those keys or totally bypass it. What people do after is something different.

Hah, Road I walked away for an hour.


Thanks Road,Undertaker,MoonWolf,chsh

I've never had one that wanted to talk online...??? Mine never get plugged in till they are fully configured.

Hmmm,

I would have expected you to get a disk error message rather than a hang.

You say it was trying to connect to the internet?...............weird, I have never come across that before.............

Given how far you had got I would imagine it was loading drivers?................maybe it was trying to find one?...............or report an error?

I have never encountered this myself :confused: are you sure that it is an ordinary OEM CD?

talking to the net .............. is this a clean install, or an upgrade ?

if it WAS an upgrade, I'd go the clean route, and suspect nastiness on the HDD ?

BUT, I've also fallen foul of the RAM fairy [?] new system / MoBo / CPU / 1GB 400MHz RAM
just did NOT load.
Put in an older stick of 512 MB 330 MHz RAM all OK ????

as your now going to use a new HDD, investigate the old with a HAMMER :D

Hi Foxy~

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I did a full Autoclave on that bitch it still hung up..........

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That is a utility you use to wipe hard drives by overwriting them.............so there would be no choice other than to do a clean install.

I did wonder if it was a copied CD with some malware on it, but that makes no sense as the malware would probably want the OS to load?

I then thought that it might be Billy Windows up to some security stunt? but I have not heard a thing on the Web.............

Then I thought maybe it was a corporate OEM CD and was trying to do an install with network support? [The OP did say that it was *cough* "borrowed"]

Most strange :confused:

Now it's working..............I still stand by my hardware failure scenario........."I think this HDD just died, but it worked with linux." Not only that but I'm betting I could act out that scenario on an old HDD. If you can prove it to be flawed that's great!

I didn't see any error messages it just went on idle. This is an authentic OEM CD..... it works just great without an Internet connection during install......except on that HP HDD. It worked fine on others before this HDD and as I confirmed for myself last night, it works fine on a different HDD during install without an Internet**middleman**. I just thought I'd throw it out here to hear the opinions of our professionals on this board.


thanks, nihil,foxy

During a WinXP install there was an option (pre sp1) to d/l latest drivers.. this only showed when you had an active network connection.. I havent seen it in the later versions of XP..but then I have a policy now of not connecting the LAN untill after the install.. Why this policy? it has nothing to do with privacy.. I did an install live on a customers network.. and managed to create a problem in 3 systems where the solution was to replace the NIC's ..

It is an interesting situation you have there.. is it possable to run some testting tools over that HDD.. any that give you the SMART status.. ..do you have or can you get a copy of HDD Regenerator..(found also on the Hirens Boot disk - I dont know how Legit this one is) this prog does a read write test of the entire HDD (it is slow- a 20G hdd will take about3hrs).

While I agree with CHSH.. hardware is hardware.. and it either works or it dosent.. unfortunatly certain software calls place hardware at the limits of its capable operation.. and any timing issues (like in memory) will cause errors.. isssues where a data words are read from two memory slots .. I am not sure of what the HDD problems could be except perhaps a Controller issue..
The tests I mention earlier gives a general idea of the health .. I suspect the Media is ok..
How Linux and Widows use the hardware.. the built in timings.. etc will cause different problems on the same hardware.
So I take it that:
even without the internet connection capability ..
and that one HDD, the install still just stops.. no errors.. just goes to sleep?
yet same machine and a different HDD all is OK?
What happens with that HDD in a different system.. ?

I am intrigued as to the cause of the problem

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Originally posted here by chsh
Hardware is hardware, if it works, it will work. If other software is working fine on a given set of hardware, start working towards it being a software related issue.

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I assume your statement is anecdotal.
Either you're over simplifying all hardware, or you know a lot of the unknown and should work for NASA’s mechanical engineering branch! Because you've patently found a way to throw out, let's say, a trillion different variables! Does a battery have to be at 100% to work? Did it ever occur to you that not all of the components that make up certain hardware’s have to work for the hardware’s to work? A lot of hardware in this world can work at below 100%. I suspect HDD's not to be the exception here. A PCI slot can go bad on a motherboard and the board can still be operational.

Is it possible that the arm inside an HDD that holds the read and write heads could try and make a pass over a bad sector, track, or cluster on a platter and idle during an WindowsXP install, but not during a *nix install because the head never reached the bad sector, track, or cluster on the platter? (Because it didn't need to go that far for the *nix install)

This is one of a trillion different, possible variables I'm asking about?
"things will go wrong in any given situation"

chsh are you going to say it's not possible?


She's still getting the new HDD. I found something out though, apparently there's a hidden partition on this drive. Some tools bewrayed some type of a large sum of unmovable sectors on this drive. Is that possible to move, delete, or corrupt? Does Hewlett Packer have some type of special HDD's made from the HDD manufacture? I'm thinking it has a part of the platter that the head can't reach to write or it has a built in chip on the HDD mini-board that prohibits writing in that area of the platter.

What do you guy's think?

Most HDD's start writing from the outter-section of the disk. This means it goes outter->inner. For a given angular velocity (say, 5400 RPMs) the outside of the disk will travel faster than the inside due to its radius, and if the data is organized correctly this means the outter (beginning) sectors will have the highest transfer speeds. At the very least CD's & DVD's work this way.


Some time ago there was discussion about hidden partitions. IIRC some companies did this to help their recovery CD's -- I don't know if HP was one of the companies but they probably were. It sounds like the disk is from that era, but I have no idea if the stories of this happening are true...today it is mainly a "trick" to corrupt the FAT to make your 120GB disk look like a 200GB disk, although it leads to a lot of data corruption on the disk... (supposedly back in the day the FAT tricks just allocated the hidden sectors -- though today if there are any hidden sectors is for error recovery to swap bad sectors with good ones during access...)

WindowsXP installs can hang for all sorts of reasons. Try to take everything unnecessary out and then install. If that doesn't work, hopefully the second 20GB disk you've purchased will work out alright...

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Most HDD's start writing from the outter-section of the disk

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No you're right, I read this the other night. http://img56.echo.cx/img56/9018/111113vo.jpg
My scenario should work vice versa though, no mater which way or how it writes.

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Try to take everything unnecessary out and then install.

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Oh, I have her working, she works just fine now. All of the sudden she just wanted to talk to the Internet. Now that's the anomaly I don't understand! I have Xp on it now, and I'm keeping her for further research....... I'm leaning toward this hidden partition stuff as the potential culprit.

I still would like to have some insight on my scenario.


thanks tim

Hi !mitationRust

Yes, several of the brand name computer manufacturers use hidden partitions, and HP were at the forefront of this. In fact, if you buy a modern HP box you don't even get a recovery disk, it is all on a hidden drive.

These partitions generally contain diagnostic tools and recovery data. In the old days these would come on CDs and 3.5" floppies, but manufacturers discovered that people tend to lose these, so they went for the hidden drive/partition to cut their helpdesk costs.

Now, you have an HP drive.............well that is a clue because HP don't actually make HDDs. If it says HP, it has been made by someone else and badged with the HP logo. Obviously it will have been made to HP specifications. The hidden partition will probably contain the user manual and diagnostic/recovery tools for the original HP box that it came out of.

I do not think that the hidden partition will cause the problems you describe. After all, you could not access it even after formatting and using autoclave. I suspect that it is protected by an EEPROM chip on the drive itself. Anyway, it loaded XP and worked in the old machine?

Bad sectors are a possibility, and you should be able to find these with a surface scan, as Und3ertak3r has suggested. I am slightly surprised that these were not detected and repaired (isolated) as part of the installation process, and that you did not get an error message
at least from autoclave, which I presume that you ran over the whole disk?

Of course it could be that the HDD is getting more damaged each time it is used, so the freshly damaged sectors have not been isolated?

What really confuses me is the attempted network connection. Particularly as I would expect that most OEM builders configure and test the system BEFORE attempting a network connection.

I would like to know the results of a surface scan. If you get any bad sectors reported, run it a second time and see if you get any more............that will tell us if the HDD is at death's door
:)

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Originally posted here by !mitationRust
I assume your statement is anecdotal.
Either you're over simplifying all hardware, or you know a lot of the unknown and should work for NASA’s mechanical engineering branch! Because you've patently found a way to throw out, let's say, a trillion different variables! Does a battery have to be at 100% to work? Did it ever occur to you that not all of the components that make up certain hardware’s have to work for the hardware’s to work? A lot of hardware in this world can work at below 100%. I suspect HDD's not to be the exception here. A PCI slot can go bad on a motherboard and the board can still be operational.

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In each of the scenarios you mention, one particular piece of hardware is failing. I don't consider a battery to be "hardware" in the context of this conversation, but yes, if it is working, it should remain working. Providing power is not an aspect of a battery functioning properly, it is an aspect of whether the battery is charged. A drained battery still works (talking rechargeables here). A PCI slot going bad on a motherboard means that the PCI slot went bad. The hardware in this case is the PCI slot, whether it be connectors, improper power regulation, or what, it's still the slot itself that has the problem. I have NEVER encountered ANY hardware that just plain worked in one OS and not another BECAUSE of the hardware. In one way or another it was ALWAYS the software.

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Is it possible that the arm inside an HDD that holds the read and write heads could try and make a pass over a bad sector, track, or cluster on a platter and idle during an WindowsXP install, but not during a *nix install because the head never reached the bad sector, track, or cluster on the platter? (Because it didn't need to go that far for the *nix install)

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Test your theory out then, see if it holds water. Run something like a dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hd?. Fill the drive, see if you start getting write errors. Oh wait, you said you got it working by connecting it to the internet... :rolleyes:

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This is one of a trillion different, possible variables I'm asking about?
"things will go wrong in any given situation"

chsh are you going to say it's not possible?

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I would bother answering this, but I mean, as far as I'm concerned the discussion is over, it WASN'T the drive, arguing about what it maybe might have been if a set of conditions that aren't true were true is a waste of time.

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She's still getting the new HDD.

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That's nice of you. :)

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I found something out though, apparently there's a hidden partition on this drive. Some tools bewrayed some type of a large sum of unmovable sectors on this drive. Is that possible to move, delete, or corrupt? Does Hewlett Packer have some type of special HDD's made from the HDD manufacture? I'm thinking it has a part of the platter that the head can't reach to write or it has a built in chip on the HDD mini-board that prohibits writing in that area of the platter.

What do you guy's think?

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This might surprise you, but almost every SCSI hard disk ever manufactured has "hidden sectors". On SCSI drives, it's usually ~9% of the drive space dedicated to bad sector recovery. This is why SCSI drives are generally much more stable and durable, and why an 80GB SCSI drive is actually billed as 73GB (IIRC). It's quite common by OEMs too. Dell puts on small partitions (which you can actually see). Compaq used to put invisible to everything partitions that were used with compaq-specific utilities and would only work if it was in an actual compaq box. It wouldn't surprise me if it was such a system on an HP machine.

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Originally posted here by Und3ertak3r
While I agree with CHSH.. hardware is hardware.. and it either works or it dosent.. unfortunatly certain software calls place hardware at the limits of its capable operation.. and any timing issues (like in memory) will cause errors.. isssues where a data words are read from two memory slots..

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Timing issues are induced when you have incorrectly configured software at an extremely low level controlling the hardware. I think you'll find most of the software-induced hardware failures will end up being very low level.

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I am not sure of what the HDD problems could be except perhaps a Controller issue..
The tests I mention earlier gives a general idea of the health .. I suspect the Media is ok..
How Linux and Widows use the hardware.. the built in timings.. etc will cause different problems on the same hardware.

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I'd really like to see a situation where Linux and Windows use a piece of hardware and it causes a hardware problem that does NOT relate to drivers.

EDIT: Let me put it this way: If I am using a tool with a duty cycle (say a Soldering Iron), and I choose to ignore the duty cycle, and the tool breaks, is that the tool's fault? Fundamentally, it's the same thing here. The low level software (me) is controlling the hardware and telling it what to do, and the hardware is happily doing what it's told.

Take it to a higher level. Say I'm using a Soldering Iron, and I think I know which end is the handle, but I am wrong. You think it's going to work at all?

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I'd really like to see a situation where Linux and Windows use a piece of hardware and it causes a hardware problem that does NOT relate to drivers.

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That is not what is being said. The suggestion was that as the linux distro takes up less HDD space than XP, could it be that linux worked because it never came to a possible bad sector that XP tried to use.

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Test your theory out then, see if it holds water. Run something like a dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hd?. Fill the drive, see if you start getting write errors

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Yes...............a surface/diagnostic scan as already suggested by undies and myself, should also reveal that. However:

!mitationRust said that he had run a full autoclave on the drive............that software overwrites the HDD several times, so he should have seen write errors then. Also I would have expected XP to produce errors if it encountered bad sectors.

The really weird thing is the attempt at a network connection as far as I am concerned.

With HDDs, they will frequently work even though partially damaged.............here the damage is to the platter, so the drive will function with the remaining good sectors. It is really no different from a dodgy floppy.

It may surprise you to learn that virtually no HDD ships in perfect condition. There are always minor surface imperfections. Its just that the OEM manufacturers "clean them up" They still work just fine though. :D

This is all really quite simple... you guys have done a really great job of overthinking all of this... While the fact that it had to connect to the internet is very strange... what the installer did is not... So it was trying to connect to the internet... it couldn't so it just kept trying to connect... therefore it's going to hang... it's as simple as that... I guess you should have gotten some kind of error like... "could not connect to the internet to download necessary updates" or something like that, but that's not important... What we all should be trying to figure out is WHY it had to connect to the internet, as it seems no one is really sure why...

Don't confuse a hidden partition with the hidden sectors used for bad sector recovery.
The hidden sectors you can safely ignore. That's a private conversation between
the controller and the drive, and is not software accessible. It is not an issue.

If there is a hidden partition, such as the kind used by COMPAQ, it will be defined
in the partition table, and will be deleted when you fdisk the drive. The installer
does this at the stage where it asks you if you "want to use the whole drive"
or some such question.

If you delete the hidden partition on a COMPAQ, you can't get into the BIOS
setup, but I take it this isn't even the original motherboard, right?
So that isn't an issue either.

You probably didn't start this whole thing without scandisk, or some other test
of the media, did you? Then it isn't a bad sector.

There is most likely nothing wrong with the drive, since you successfully
installed another OS on it.

You have probably discovered a rare incompatibility between the drive/controller
and the XP installer. Maybe the installer wants to connect to the net to
get the driver to solve this incompatibility.

Maybe it is demon possessed.
:cool: