Hackers, Spelling, and Grammar?

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Strom Carlson asks: "Over the last few years, I've noticed that a surprisingly large number of native English speakers, who are otherwise very technically competent, seem to lack strong English skills. Mostly, this seems to manifest itself as varying degrees of poor spelling and grammar: 'definately' instead of 'definitely'; 'should of' instead of 'should have'; and I even see the names of products and companies misspelled from time to time. It baffles me that a culture so obsessed with technical knowledge and accuracy can demonstrate such little attention to detail when it comes to communicating that knowledge with others, and it baffles me even more that many people become enraged when you attempt to help them correct and learn from their mistakes. Do hackers and geeks just not care about communicating effectively? Do they not realize that a mediocre command of written English makes them appear less intelligent? Am I missing something here?"

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http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/...?tid=215&tid=4

What I find extremely ironic is when another member complains about a previous user's grammer. I've seen it multiple times on various message boards.

Well, I was at university 1969-72. Science students were notorious for their lack of ability in using the English language. I would therefore suggest that this is nothing new.

Now, couple that with the use of computers and the keyboard. I know of a lot of companies who got rid of professional secretarial staff on the grounds that people had a computer, a printer and a word processing package. How many people here were given a typing course though?

Every college student and its fleas want a laptop and a mobile phone these days. How many of them actually write letters? I guess that it is just a sign of the times.

:)

When I was in high school my writing teacher insisted that I use longhand for all compositions. I hated her for it at the time, however in the long run I came to realize that her method actually served a purpose. No matter how much of a computer addict you are, there will always be times where there is no substitute for clear, legible writing. Thanks to her instruction whenever I visit a trade show/seminar I can read my notes after the event is over.

Many moons ago (just about the time the IBM Selectric came out) I was in high school, and a very wise football coach instructed me on how to meet girls. He told me to take two years of typing classes and any english class I could get into. If I would follow his advice, I'd meet more girls than I knew what to do with! And now mega years later, although I'm not out chasing skirts anymore, here I am on a keyboard and somewhat grammatically correct.

I'm not too critical over a few mistakes. However I must say I will not read very much of a poorly written document. Some people could probably care less, but I feel if the person doesn't respect the reader enough to put some effort forward and display attention to detail, then it's probably not worth reading.

~cheers~

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Well, I was at university 1969-72.

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Let me just open this post by saying one thing -- Johnno you are one OLD man. :D

Anyways, bleh people have complained over the way I use grammar while typing. Oddly enough however, when it came to writing papers, essays, etc I can write fairly well. Online though I get all "out of funk".

I can't read a word of this...

Put a semicolon after each statement ;

Nooooo! I actually found one of spec's posts funny >.<

as for the whole speeling(!?) thing - I have to admit even after 5yrs of English literature classes my spelling is attrocisous, atroiceous, attrecious.....really bad ;)

v_Ln

edit -> what no strike through - bah

I was a science student, yes my spelling and grammar is not good at all. It wasn't seen as a priority within our course you weren't marked down for it as long as it was intelligible.

I get embarrassed (**** had to look that one up) by my poor English so I've got a few dictionary and grammar websites in my favourites.

My GF is a business studies teacher in a secondary school (12-18yr). Some of the stuff she brings home really opens your eyes. There are a lot of kids who can barely read/write usually these are the dimmer kids but a lot of average kids have really terrible English skills. She's had a few things handed to her written in txt. Nothing in 133t yet.

[Edit] Sigh, edited for both spelling and grammAr, I'm going to the frickin pub[/Edit]

No comment; :D

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Put a semicolon after each statement ;

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I'd have thought that the Specialist would put a colon after each :)
After all it IS his specialist subject ...........

When I was at school [middle] 64-69 :eek: we HAD to write clearly and legibly.
For failing to pass your weekly test, you had to write in a different colour ink.
By the second year I was on pencil ................. sat next to a girl who was allowed to write in PURPLE ink [the top peoples colour don'cha know]

As for PC's, how many [L]users actually know WHERE the auto correct feature is ?

It's just a VERY lazy world nowadays .......... [IMnotsoHO] :D

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When I was at school [middle] 64-69

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Nevermind Johnno. I take back what I said about you ;) (just messing around foxy ;)).

Sorry, but I couldn't resist!

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You must spread your AntiPoints around before giving it to Boundless again.

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You won't find THIS on AO too often :D

Hackers, Spelling, and Grammar?


Posted by Cliff on Thursday June 30, @05:48PM
from the i'm-as-guilty-as-the-next-coder dept.
Strom Carlson asks: "Over the last few years, I've noticed that a surprisingly large number of native English speakers, who are otherwise very technically competent, seem to lack strong English skills. Mostly, this seems to manifest itself as varying degrees of poor spelling and grammar: 'definately' instead of 'definitely'; 'should of' instead of 'should have'; and I even see the names of products and companies misspelled from time to time. It baffles me that a culture so obsessed with technical knowledge and accuracy can demonstrate such little attention to detail when it comes to communicating that knowledge with others, and it baffles me even more that many people become enraged when you attempt to help them correct and learn from their mistakes. Do hackers and geeks just not care about communicating effectively? Do they not realize that a mediocre command of written English makes them appear less intelligent? Am I missing something here?"



Why do you quote other people? why dont you come more original......?

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Originally posted here by TelenetJumper
Why do you quote other people? why dont you come more original......?

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I agree... now shut your mouth.

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i think you may have misspelled the word grammar :p

Grammer isn't important the knowledge is !!!!

BURRRRRRRRRRT wrong answer.

Grammar is very important in giving subtlety and nuance to written text. It's the way to pass on knowledge through writing without the meaning becoming corrupted. The words themselves are not enough to convey the exact meaning.

Think about the pauses and inflections you put into your voice to put across what you mean in spoken conversation. The only way to put that into written text is to correctly use grammar.
In addition it helps to keep your text organised and legible.

The complexity of some forms of writing, poetry especially, is only possible through the artful use of grammar.

I agree with Aspman, grammar is very important. Just try writing a user instruction manual or training course user notes, and you will find out.

You actually see positions advertised for "technical authors"

If you doubt this, write an English sentence and then insert the word "not" in front of the verb. It tends to make quite a difference? I know that is a crude example, but it illustrates the point.

;)

I can't really understand blaming this problem on the times. I'm 18, had a computer during the (more) imporatant times of my life (writing papers, typing essays, etc. etc.), and still turned out very grammatically correct.

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Originally posted here by Cache
I can't really understand blaming this problem on the times. I'm 18, had a computer during the (more) imporatant times of my life (writing papers, typing essays, etc. etc.), and still turned out very grammatically correct.

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I have to agree, I don't think that computers are making the youth of today write and speak the way they do as much as lack of quality in education.

I'll 100% admit that I did not know the proper places to us a comma until my freshman semester in college. The way it was originally taught to me in public school, from many teachers, was that if you are speaking the words and pause you should put a comma. This is NOT true at all. In a lot of cases they do coincide, but this is not the law of the land.

None the less english is taught in K-12, but you can easily pass without knowing a whole lot about anything. Spellings was from K-6 and that only included words on a 6th grade reading level. After that the only time spelling was graded was on the yearly research paper, that was typed and gone over with a fine tooth comb. Anyone should be able to spell right when they have 2 months to write 5 pages.

My mom used to tell me about "diagramming a sentence". I have NEVER done this in my life. I think enlish education in the US (or atleast around here) is VERY subpar.

Cache, you may be one of the few that takes the time to review their papers, essays and/or reports before submitting them. I have received a paper written in IM language (along with paragraphs of perfect english -- copied directly from the web, of course). And I have had arguments with students about the importance of being able to write coherently, clearly, concisely and effectively. They, or so they have told me, believe that it's not the writing that matters but the doing. And that the technology will speak for itself.

I usually ask them how they intend on getting that technology if don't know how to put in a decent argument in favour of that specific technology. I am finding that fewer students understand how to write an essay, how to do simple footnoting or bibliographies, how to quote properly or even how to do research properly for their papers. They would rather finish it quickly, get it out of the way and then go and play. The Entertainment Ethic runs higher, I guess, than the Work Ethic.

And, by the way, if you are looking for a straighforward, layman's look at grammar go to your local library and get Eats, Shots and Leaves by Lynne Truss. Excellent book. Very humourous but to the point.

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Originally posted here by MsMittens
Cache, you may be one of the few that takes the time to review their papers, essays and/or reports before submitting them. I have received a paper written in IM language (along with paragraphs of perfect english -- copied directly from the web, of course). And I have had arguments with students about the importance of being able to write coherently, clearly, concisely and effectively. They, or so they have told me, believe that it's not the writing that matters but the doing. And that the technology will speak for itself.

I usually ask them how they intend on getting that technology if don't know how to put in a decent argument in favour of that specific technology. I am finding that fewer students understand how to write an essay, how to do simple footnoting or bibliographies, how to quote properly or even how to do research properly for their papers. They would rather finish it quickly, get it out of the way and then go and play. The Entertainment Ethic runs higher, I guess, than the Work Ethic.

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I think this is because kids get by with less and less from the lower grades. Low grade teachers need to hold kids to a higher standard and they will begin to take pride in their work.

Just the other day, one of the girls at my fiances office asked me how to spell something that she was typing into an email. I forget what the word was, but she typed something and tried to spell check it yet it gave her no suggestions. You have to atleast be able to get the word close for the technology to be able to decypher it.

I used to hate when students would ask "how do you spell xxx" and the teacher would reply "look it up in the dictionary". To know how to look something up in the dictionary sort of means you know how to spell it already. It just leaves the clueless people clueless.

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Just the other day, one of the girls at my fiances office asked me how to spell something that she was typing into an email. I forget what the word was, but she typed something and tried to spell check it yet it gave her no suggestions. You have to atleast be able to get the word close for the technology to be able to decypher it.

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That shows a dependence on technology rather than mastering it as a tool, which is what it's supposed to be. Isn't it?

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I used to hate when students would ask "how do you spell xxx" and the teacher would reply "look it up in the dictionary". To know how to look something up in the dictionary sort of means you know how to spell it already. It just leaves the clueless people clueless.

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There is a bit of logic to that. You should understand basic language structure (th sounds, ch-u sounds, etc.) and know at least where to start. We don't break down words like we used to (I go through the description of what the word cryptography and steganography are to my students and some are "amazed" at the definition) nor do we spend the time on the history or origin of words.

I suspect there are many factors involved in this "degradation" but I don't doubt that the Information Age (apparently the age we are presently experiencing) is overflowing us with too much information. I am finding that it's not just geeks that are affected by this but all areas of education. What the impact will be in 50, 100, 200 years is hard to say. It's impact today may be resulting in some time lost while an employee waits for the "machine" to tell it how to spell "grammar".

By the way, using google and it's define operator can be helpful in this endeavour. :D

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Originally posted here by zENGER
My mom used to tell me about "diagramming a sentence". I have NEVER done this in my life. I think enlish education in the US (or atleast around here) is VERY subpar.

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I actually have diagrammed sentences in my school, which I couldn't find any relevant uses for this skill, but it came quite easily. It was very logical and didn't seem to require that much thought process. What's funny is I always thought my school district was behind others (I live in Appalachia :P) but it seems that we aren't as bad as I had thought. Doesn't do me much good now since I've graduated.

Nobody is allowed to fail anymore.

Everyone has a degree. Now a degree is almost worthless on the job market.
You're going to need a degree to be a cleaner soon.


Industry and higher education tell the press that school leavers can no longer read and write properly but exam pass rates for schools are higher than ever.

Hi Aspman

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Industry and higher education tell the press that school leavers can no longer read and write properly but exam pass rates for schools are higher than ever.

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Is that because they are being taught and examined by their peers?

:cool:

Hey Nihil,

I'm not sure what you mean.

My GF teaches Business Studies (Accounts, Admin and Management) she does correct the kids work for spelling and grammar but she doesn't mark it down unless it's particularly bad.
Marking seems to be aimed to marking the kids work for a particular subject and not for picking up general cross-curricular issues.

I think I can remember my school work being marked in a similar way.

I think its all about money. Schools get money per kid they have in school. Lower the requirements and less will drop out, and thus they get more money from the gov't.

Aspman

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I'm not sure what you mean.

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I meant that if the teachers don't have the skills they cannot impart them to their pupils, or examine them?

"trial by one's peers"?

:)

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Nobody is allowed to fail anymore.

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Don't come to my class then. I'm a firm believer if you don't do the work, you don't pass. Period. Now, I have been asked to bump up a student -- once -- because they had Bs in all their other classes but an F in mine (helps to show up in this case -- she didn't like the 8am and I was her only female teacher). I said no. 10% bump up is way to high. I can do 1-2 marks (note, not percentage) and have done it if it meant a student going from an A to an A+ (so 94.5% to 95%) but haven't done it otherwise.

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I meant that if the teachers don't have the skills they cannot impart them to their pupils, or examine them?

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Yes I think that could be quite right.
I think some time ago education tooks it's eye off the ball. Those of use who went through the system during that time (5-20 yr ago) have been left without some of these skills. I think it is a gap that is acknowledged now but not one that is being addressed yet.

The general shortage of teachers is forcing schools to employ staff who are not up to grade themselves.

The thing is that if you actually speak to teachers they will tell you that there are no jobs. What isn't being made clear in the reports is that there is a shortage of part time teachers and temp teachers and a lack of full time perminant posts. Lots of staff are forced to work day to day and are not paid over the long holidays. Then they give up and get a perminant job out of teaching. Meanwhile the gov pushes through more and more student teachers. These students are promised a 0.7 of full time contract for one year. In practice what happens is that lots of teachers who are on long term supply contracts (up to 2 years long) are forced out of a job to make way for the student. After the year the student is often dropped and the cycle starts again. It's very silly and not a surprise that lots of new teachers only work a few years before moving on. Then you have the new faculty head system coming in....[rants off into distance]

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Don't come to my class then

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Quite right. The best grades I got at school were often with the harshest teachers. Strangely they were also often some of the most popular teachers too.