Securing kids online

Sounds like a home user's question I know but I think it has wider implications. Consider the following real life examples

1) Teenage girl receives an email telling her not to IM with [email protected] because 'she is a virus'

2) Email sent to teenage hotmail users telling them to send 20 emails or have their hotmail account cut off

3) High school has to implement real time monitoring and alert because the kids are so inventive in bypassing the contents filtering

4) Father (who works in computers I kid you not) warns his daughter not to go online because of 'hackers'

5) children downloading and swapping P2P with no idea that they are doing anything illegal until their parents get a fine dropped through the post

Do I detect an advocacy campaign somewhere in here - which I suspect we should be involved in both to control the fud factor and to promote real and realistic measures for child protection online, both legal and technical?

My $0.02 on this subject is that you need to strike a balance between measures to protect kids and parents taking responsibility for their kids time.

Either extreme of the argument leads to problems. You can't remove all potentially offensive/inappropriate content because what one person finds offensive the other does not - you could ultimately end up banning most content at that extreme. At the other extreme, parents need to take some responsibility for what their kids are doing. A reasonable parent wouldn't let their young lad save up his money to buy a subscription of hustler, the same level of monitoring should apply with what they do online.

One area I do think needs addressing of course is the internet predator. The internet gives undesirable people unprecendented anonymous and deceptive access to unsuspecting kids. What is the answer to this problem? One good item for discussion I think.

Well, my thoughts on the subject at any rate

1: If you annoy me on MSN I wouldn't trust attachments from me or even talk to me if I where you.
2: Fother Muck should be shot for that...
3: And?
4: When you haven't applied a service pack or two well...
5: Chances are they won't... get real. I think every member knows how I stand on this one.

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One area I do think needs addressing of course is the internet predator. The internet gives undesirable people unprecendented anonymous and deceptive access to unsuspecting kids. What is the answer to this problem? One good item for discussion I think.

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I think the whole point of this thread was to have a realistic way of going about things and lets be perfectly honest, you have a better chance of winning the lottery than to be murdered because someone thought you looked hot online or didn't like what you posted up or something like that.

That is... unless you put up a picture of something sexy like goatse or tubgirl all over adultfriendfinder.com and agree to meet up with the first Joe-blow who respondes.

If you are over the age of 13, it's your own damn job to be careful online... you're old enough to watch out for yourself on the internet, if you **** up, it's your own damn fault... If you are under that, the blame falls squarly on your parents shoulders for allowing you online with no supervision... between 13-16 a lot of blame still falls on parents for lack of education... other than that, it's personal responsibility... the info is out there if you look for it...

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Yes, but only on a personal basis.

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It is one of the many, many things that probably require more attention then most of us offer. However, as strongly as many parents and 'child advocacy' groups may clamor about the CRITICAL IMPORTANCE OF THIS (quoted from their many L-user spam-bait email chains), I think it simply falls under the category of User Education.

Feel free to set up yet another advocacy campaign, if you really think it's what is best; I personally feel it is too narrow in scope to fit AO very well. Certainly it's a topic worth discussing when valid points arise, but set up our own group? Active advocacy? Why reinvent the wheel?

http://www.wiredkids.org/
http://www.cyberangels.org/
http://www.childnet-int.org/
http://www.safekids.com/
http://www.nationalcac.org/families/...et_safety.html
http://www.safeteens.com/

...I can keep posting these, but there really isn't any reason. I think the most realistic option, through this community, is to post relevant discussions on this subject and maybe (I hate to say this, but...) the OCCASIONAL tutorial for how the various software solutions that are available work (probably Other tutorials, not necessarily Security tut's.) I'm not advocating spamming the boards with this, but simply bring it up when it is relevant.

I do agree, it's an important cause. But so is cancer research. Gene therapy. Cold fusion. Fuel cell energy. Hunger and poverty. Human rights. Liberty and freedom from oppression. Shall we take on the technical and legal security aspects of these as well?

So basically the parents need to take a some bit of responsability. Especially in meeting people from the internet. However, I don't think it's fair to hold the parents responsible if the kid hacks someone, or the ISP, etc... I think kids are getting smarter about this things, but there is still a fair amount of stupid people that need educated. As for the file sharing, RIAA is just trying to get more money. If you look at how much the artists make from a CD as compared to the recording companies this will make plenty of sense; they aren't doing it for the artist, greedy ****s. Anyway, I think kids should basically be responsible for what they do online (and off), but I think we also owe it to them to educate them (especially if we plan on punishing them).

John Naughton, in his book A Brief History of the Future[1] covers this subject quite well IMHO. So I'll briefly quote from his work:

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Myths about the evils of the Internet are invariably leavened with some hoary staples. The first concerns children - and the dangers that lie in wait for then in Cyberspace. Yet the minute one begins to probe into this phobia, strange contradictions appear. For example, I have met parents who seem relaxed about violent videos and/or unpleasant computer games, and yet are terrified of letting their kids on the Net. And when I suggest putting the PC in the living room where they can keep an eye on it they look at me as if I have just discovered gravity.

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[1]http://www.briefhistory.com/

Jinxy makes an excellent point...I have seen far too many parents with that
attitude :rolleyes:

I monitor my kids surfing when at home and discuss the things that they see\read\hear not just off the internet.......the media as a whole.

Hey ,....my kids are worried that Karla is gonna kill them.. terrorists coming to our small canadian town, war, etc

I believe it is all about education, and teaching your children well...talking to them and trying to explain that TV, movies, video games, etc are not REAL....you cant even trust the news agencies any more.....its all about fear....its a wonder that we are all still around to waste our days on this site...with all the bulls%^t being spouted out there...we should all be dead...with bird flu, mad cow, west nile...etc

You can try and shield them all you want at home...but whats to say that they wont be going to a friends house and doing it there.

Teach them to make the right decissions in life....spend quality time and talk to them.
We take our kids out camping almost everyweekend...just to get away from all the hype...
my daughter the other morning was describing the sunrise on the lake.

"you should have seen it mommy...it was just starting to get light out.....everything was so soft"

My .02 cdn

MLF

As a 17 year old, I received the "be careful online" talks from my parents several times a week for about three years. I didnt feel that I needed them, but they were a good reminder. However, It got to the point where they were just patronising, and I said so. After that I didnt get any reminders. However, my sister (13) has had few reminders because my parents dont want to seem patronising to her. Since she started to go online regularly, the amount of adware, spyware and other nasties that have needed removing has increased.
To conclude this chapter of my life story, I'm just saying that just because a parent has one well infromed kid, it doesn't mean they have two of them. They need to remember to tell them both the same when they educate.

Edit: Just reread what I posted and realised i kinda left the topic slightly. To stay firmly on topic here I should say that what parents say will help more than what people read. And if both are used together then I believe they will be even more effective

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Originally posted here by morganlefay

I believe it is all about education, and teaching your children well...talking to them and trying to explain that TV, movies, video games, etc are not REAL....you cant even trust the news agencies any more.....its all about fear....its a wonder that we are all still around to waste our days on this site...with all the bulls%^t being spouted out there...we should all be dead...with bird flu, mad cow, west nile...etc

You can try and shield them all you want at home...but whats to say that they wont be going to a friends house and doing it there.

Teach them to make the right decissions in life....

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Absolutely. My wife's step sister is given self help manuals to help her deal with hormones, teenage anxiety, depression. Her room is isolated from the rest of the house, she has a TV, computer and no parental guidance. I clean the PC at least once a quarter. This kid is screwed up and - judging from her chat conversations and surfing habits, she'll be pregnant or dead from an overdose (some kind of designer drug) by the time she's 16.

I talked to the parents and was politely told to **** OFF. So just like adults, when it comes to security Training, Training, Training. When it comes to kids and the internet - Hey it's just another form of media. Teach (train) and help with the decision making process.

IMHO

Another problem is idiots who think porn is something only 18 and up should look at.... When you're 18 you generally have a GF and don't need it, and at that age you should know enough not to knock her up.

So 16 year olds end up pregnant because guys around the same age have no way of releasing sexual tension, which is because thye can't get porn and they have idiot parents who won't let them look at it online.

Think about that the next time you're bitching out a kid over a couple boobs. At least he's not a dad.

My cousin and me were smarter though, if we got caught with porn, we would throw in the homosexual fears of parents and play on it:

"Well damn Dad, at least I'm not gay, would you rather have me looking at big floppy dicks?"

Heh, I got a bottle of lotion and a subscription to playboy as did my cousin after that one.

:flip:

seeing this issue from both perspectives, being 22, i think that making sure your kid isn't a retard is priority number 1. At 15 i dialed up, completely on my own, knowing more about the $2000 machine i was in front of then my parents did who bought it. That general theme continued thru most of the "warning" and "educational" talks my parents gave me, except the one about money and work, i never bought that one, till i got stuck with that one, but thats another story. Anyhoo, back to my point. There's one thing i've realized helping as many people as i have:
Children will always be able to outsmart a parent when it comes to technology. Children have more time and energy to devote to their goals, and have as big or bigger of a social network to work with to get where they want. Those kids in highschool playing magic the gathering or D&D or insert_roleplaying_or_fantasy_game_here were always there for me to answer a few questions or drop a few hints. Your basically dealing with securing the computer from your child AND all your children's friends. Not gonna happen, or will happen, until the kid figures out Linux Live-CDs or finds your written down password, or etc etc.
Now, the main focus should be on enlightening your child that there are people as screwed up in the head, or moreso than you are. All those bad guys in the movies, alot of them represent something that really exists either in personality or in actions. I met people online without my parents knowing about it. but i remember that crappy Oprah 1 hour special bullshit, and I always went with a friend, and made sure it was a public place. And i always made sure that there was a phone number exchange and a few conversations were made back and forth. You can really tell the difference between a pervert and another possible friend on the phone. Especially when your between 13 and 16. So the point of this ramble, is that train your kid to be smart. Have your kid thinking of ways to protect him or herself from the getgo, you'd be surprised how far a little knowledge and empowerment will get you.
To sum this over extended thread up, don't feverishly lock down your computer when a little knowledge and understanding can get you to the same level of security. If your child doesn't understand that people are dangerous, convincing and enticing, (while being all the good stuff too, but takes away from the impact of the sentence) then their gonna get Effed in the A in some other part of life. Remember, Digital is the new stuff, all the same old dangers are out there. Don't break your back trying to prevent some chance occurance online, when they can get in as much or more danger walking out the front door. Set general principles, like Don't be stupid. A lot of non-digital secure thinking can translate easily into digitally secure thinking.

end of rant

Don't even waste your time trying to explain the dangers of anything to children...that will get you nowhere fast...

SHOW YOUR KIDS !

I taught my kids the value of road safety by showing them, every time we came across one, a dead animal on the road...

I taught my kids about strangers by showing them articles/pictures of what could happen to them...

if you really want a child to learn...you have to SHOW them...it registers much better and they learn alot faster. And I'm talking about Real-Life examples, not something that they identify with mostly as fiction like T.V.

We all learn better when we're SHOWN rather than TOLD...in virtually every aspect of life.

They have to SEE consequences...or you're just wasting your breath.

' But I told them?! '...good luck!

Eg ;)

Being shown definitly works better than anything else... All my friends that have ever been in a wreck ALWAYS wear their seatbelts now, seatbelt saved one of their lives. Seing a friend get hurt really bad in a car wreck and knowing that he had a seatbelt ON really made a lot of people rethink not having one...

Seeing a wreck in person also makes people drive safer... Everyone I know who has seen a bad wreck happen near them tends to drive better for at least 6 months after it...

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if you really want a child to learn...you have to SHOW them...it registers much better and they learn alot faster. And I'm talking about Real-Life examples, not something that they identify with mostly as fiction like T.V.

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I completely agree. If youre child is considerably underage, they should not have a internet-capable computer in their rooms. Even if you tell them what and what not to view, they know you cannot see through their wooden bedroom door (that is, unless you are a direct descendant of Superman). Be proactive about issues such as these, but be realistic. Kids are going to try to circumvent security restrictions, so pick your battles too.

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Originally posted here by tenzenryu
which I suspect we should be involved in both to control the fud factor and to promote real and realistic measures for child protection online, both legal and technical?

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Simple - :D unplug the computer

I always wear my seatbelt and have never been in a wreck. Some things just make sense ;).

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Originally posted here by tenzenryu
Do I detect an advocacy campaign somewhere in here - which I suspect we should be involved in both to control the fud factor and to promote real and realistic measures for child protection online, both legal and technical? [/B]

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I've grown up with the Internet. I'm not much older than it anyway, and my dad was one of the first here in the Netherlands to have an Internet connection. I've grown up with it and it's risks so I think I have a good opinion about it. :D
First of all, the Internet is like the highway. Everything moves around fast and you don't let your child play in the middle of the road. The same is true about the Internet. Children should have NO access to it if no adult is going to supervise it.

I think there should be a second, internet-like network that is used by schools with the purpose to educating children. This network should not be connected in any way to the regular Internet. And access to this network should be protected in some way. It would also need stricter rules.
This would be easily possible with an adjustment in the HTTP protocol if you ask me. An additional tag could be attached to every request, notifying the server that this is a request from a minor. It would then return a child-safe page. And sites that would violate this rule would just end up on some blacklist, possibly even banned from the regular Internet too.
So we'd have a free-for-all Internet and a second, childsafe Internet.

The next thing would be a better education for parents. They need to realise that their child can easily commit all kinds of crimes on the Internet without even realising that they are committing crimes! Those P2P networks make it so easy to download soundtracks and all kinds of software. Besides, kids will also trade these with friends without even using the Internet.

Then there are the kids who think it's fun to post nude pictures and movies of themselves online. They can have all kinds of reasons for doing this. It could be that someone tricked them to do so. It's also possible that they do this out of their own free will. I heard of a case in the USA where a 14 year old girl was arrested for spreading around childporn. She had put pictures of herself and her boyfriend online, and those were a bit sexual explicit. The boyfriend even approved this. Just don't know how this ended...

And there are online predators who are trying to search for online kids to lure them into a real-life meeting. This is the biggest danger, yet also the least common threat. Just teach your kids to not go and meet strangers they've only met online.

To keep kids secure online, you will have to start with providing them proper education. Don't blame the Internet if the kids were never educated about the dangers...

I say "kill all the kids". My family say "Papa, we need the kids to sell drugs to, we kill the kids, we have no more business, we end up poor" Prostitution is not good business no more, the kids today give it away for free, they call it " love" or something, papa our days are numbered. we have to find a new business. I have been told this computer thing is up and coming and we could make money from it, but who knows, what the **** is this thing they call technology. papa we made lots of money from olives, lets go back to the old ways