London Bombings

Was going to put this in Chit-Chat so to keep all the related threads together...but this is probably more appropriate here...

after 9/11 Canada, Britian, and some other nations were quick to go to Afghanistan to hunt down the leader behind it...

now that Britian has suffered a similiar attack, albeit, with fewer casualties, what do YOU think Britian should do?
and...what role do you think other Nations should play..or what services they should offer?

Eg ;)

The War on Terror will have the same result as the so-called War on Drugs...with Drugs the solution is simple...take the profit away and the house comes crashing down...
the War on Terror however has a different solution...and it can't be a ' half-baked ' solution...to win this War you have to exceed acceptable losses...inotherwords, you can't go in half-way, you have to go in ALL the Way...every available troop, weapon, and supply...and cast any hesitation to the wind...no negotiation, no diplomacy, 100% committed until the problem has been eradicated...
as long as terrorists are allowed acceptable losses they will never be persuaded to reconsider their actions.

Where do we begin this hunt and what are the acceptable losses of innocents? Who decides those acceptable loses? Who will fund this? Do we punish the host countries? Do we punish those countries that refuse to participate? Is there a time limit to achieve the objective? Who takes the lead on this hunt and how will you achieve universal support of the those in the lead?

Isn't North Korea also a terrorist state since they continually threaten the use of Nukes?

The questions can go on and on...

We will never win the war on drugs by chasing the bad guys that provide token busts to keep us pacified, or popping the folks on the street.

Nor will we ever win the war on terrorism in our current scenario. Granted we all want a pound of flesh for what they have done and I will stand beside you and "lock and load", however we will not win this one with bullets.

It is the minds and hearts that must change.

~cheers~

these new London bombings have really got me upset.

i think there are some .mil & .gov types that hang around here - which probably understand these things better than i do - so i would like to ask a question.

why can't we just go hiroshima-nagasaki on the entire afgan/iraq/iran area and end it once and for all?

and before you all jump at me with "well, you just can't do that!". i want to add...

we attacked iraq while most of the world & UN were against it - but we did it anyway. as far as i am concerned, that has established a precedent. we did it once. we can do it again.

sorry if i am putting a political spin on the topics here (but this is chit chat area) but this news really is upsetting.

Hi Relyt,

I agree...ultimately, it would be preferred if these terrorists just came to their senses and realized that killing ' innocent ' people is not going change anything...

but we both know that's not going to happen.

I agree....ultimately, diplomacy would be the preferred course of action...and everyone would sit and discuss the issues...

but we both know that's not going to happen either.

I think we failed in Afghanistan and Iraq...had full resources been applied to Afghanistan and the hunt for OBL, and Iraq been put on hold until ' after ' the first and primary goal had been achieved...there may not have been a need for Iraq...

Afghanistan had the support of the world community and should have been resolved before anything else...

to have gone after Saddam ( who was not a well liked dictator to even other Muslim states )before the capture of OBL only gave them a sense of victory...had OBL been captured, that would have been something they would have looked at...and Saddam would have folded just as Gaddafy did without even a struggle...

we missed the best opportunity we had to make a statement that would not have gone unnoticed by not following through with the world's full resources in the capture of OBL.

sometimes...the only way to make a point is with..

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a pound of flesh

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Eg ;)

Yes, but how do you make a pound of flesh really hurt when it's against people who think the best thing that can happen in their life is to die for their cause? That if they die in the commission of these terrorist acts, or die whilst fighting against "western evil" they're going to go straight to heaven?

I understand the sentiment, I really do. I am tired of seeing people crying because they've lost loved ones who just happened to go to work one day. I'm tired of seeing these jackasses win battle after battle, and they are winning. The reason they are winning is because they aren't afraid to die, dying for this cause is the ultimate goal of their lives. The war approach isn't going to work, unless we obliterate every Muslim country on the planet. And if we do that, isn't that genocide, and one of the main 'reasons' we went after Saddam in the first place?

My thoughts, prayers, and sympathy go to all of those involved in this today. It was a bad day for me, horrible memories of 9/11, but today is about someone else's loss and grief.

i dont think this attack was really meant to get britain out. they were in it for the long haul and this will just toughen their resolve. i think its more meant to scare italy and some other nations that aren't as firmly commited. where as attacking them directly might just make them as mad a 911 did us unlike spain which was ready to fold even before they were attacked

"It is the minds and hearts that must change."

and that is exactly what will happen if we hang around long enough to make afganistan and iraq prosperous independant free nations then get the F out. and thats exactly why their trying to stop us.

when the iranians see the iraqies are doing better than they are they will try to be more prosperous and more free than their rival iraq.

N. Korea is and has been a terrorist nation because they have and will supply terror groups with weapons. which is what makes their development of nukes so dangerous. if they dont stop we will have to stop them one way or another or pay a real big price.

Hi debs,

Wars are won by demoralizing the enemy...either by playing on their minds or by presenting them with overwhelming odds...

the capture of OBL would have both made a strong point and demoralized his followers...

the escape of OBL means everything to these people and the capture of Saddam means nothing to these people.

There have been no victories....all that has happened is the guy they admire/revere is free...and the one who is considered a fool by them, captured....to them, the lion has no teeth.

Eg ;)

Oh, I agree 100% Eg. The mistake that was made was in not finishing what we started. My fear is that we have lost all chance of finishing this now. IMO, it's just going to continue to spiral out of control, we're going to keep sending our best and our brightest over there as cannon fodder, and where's the end? Had we captured OBL, it would be a different game right now, but no matter what Bush and his supporters say, the whole world, including the people we are fighting, believe that if they just hold out long enough and the US doesn't achieve their goal, we'll find someone else to pick on to take attention away from another failed US military goal.

Yep,

Gotta add that we should have marched all the way to Saddam the first time. Weren't we only about 45 miles from him on the first Iraq conflict? Iraq probably would have been a non-issue by now and OBL, either he's dead or someone is hiding him...

Well I'm definitely not liberal and don't believe diplomacy works in all cases. But with all of our combined brain power we should be able to figure out a way to change their hearts and minds; more smarts than braun to devise a way to convince them that it is in their best interest to knock it off permanently. However if we can't, then let's make some glass where all that sand is.

~cheers~

Hi Relyt,

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either he's dead or someone is hiding him...

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If I were him...I'd be living in Washington, D.C...in a posh apartment overlooking the Pentagon...watching everything on CNN...

it wouldn't surprise me in the least if his office in New York had a bird's eye view of 9/11...and watched as it went down...

Maybe for kicks he attends the same church as the Bush's for Sunday Mass.

He's probably in the last place you'd look!

As just another Arab American walking around he probably wouldn't even get a second glance...it's the safest place for him to be.

Eg ;)

http://www.antionline.com/showthread...hreadid=269211

Can we keep it in one thread please.

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Where do we begin this hunt

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It has already began

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what are the acceptable losses of innocents?

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In a war there are no innocents, just targets :(

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Who decides those acceptable loses?

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Fate ??

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Who will fund this?

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The UN :D we all know where the money will come from. which begs the question - If 9/11 hadn't happened, THEN who would fund it? Could it be that the one act to start this, turns out to be the one act that guaranteed it's defeat?

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Do we punish the host countries?

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If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. = Yes. How ? I don't know, but I'm sure that there are people who do know.

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Do we punish those countries that refuse to participate?

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See above

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Is there a time limit to achieve the objective?

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No time limits, time acts for them, not for us, so it has to be ignored. Chase them to their graves, then eradicate their bloodline ............

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Who takes the lead on this hunt

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The UN :D Again, I think we all know the answer to this one.

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how will you achieve universal support

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Political 'suggestion' followed by actual implementation of threat - sorry - suggestion.

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Isn't North Korea also a terrorist state since they continually threaten the use of Nukes?

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I believe that they are next on the list

The questions can go on and on...

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The reason they are winning is because they aren't afraid to die, dying for this cause is the ultimate goal of their lives.

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"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
- Attributed to General George Patton Jr

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Source

my $0.02c

Pax

but this time not to everyone obviously.

[edit]
as an additional
I got in touch with family from the London area, all fine, comms are disrupted due to the events.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...ons/html/1.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4660563.stm

They've picked the wrong country to try to intimidate.

There was quite a strong antiwar sentiment here, that could well evaporate.
The IRA have been bombing cities in England for 30yrs this is nothing new to us.
Panic on the streets of London. Nope didn't happen. We win.

The answer is simple:

Switzerland....................nothing goes in and nothing comes out until they open all their private banks and institutions to a multiple international audit...............they are the filth that support this sort of activity, and African, Asian and South American dictatorships..............take them down, take them out.

Then give Syria 24 hours to regurgitate all the crap it has taken in from Iraq, or we nuke Damascus.

There was an American philosopher called George Santayana, who said something like:

"Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat the past"

Korean War..........in 1952 General MacArthur wanted to cross the Yallu river and finish the job..........?

In 1992 General Shwartzkopf wanted to finish the job..............but "Gutless George" wasn't up for it..............?

Ack phtt! .....go figure...........

In an attempt to get both of these threads together, I have posted my response to all this in the other one, and linked to it here:

http://www.antionline.com/showthread...764#post848764

Hi l3lacklce,

Like I said at the start of this thread...your thread and Undies were ' reaction threads ' in Chit-Chat...and I considered posting this there...but this is a ' what do we do now thread...or what should have been done before ', which is more appropriately Cosmos...a discussion of this nature has ' always ' been a Cosmos domain. hence the new thread.

Eg ;)

P.S. CopyRight...your link leads back to this thread. :D were you trying to link to Undies thread or rowdy's?
Again, Undies thread was a ' reaction thread ' and this is a Cosmos discussion...rowdy's thread was posted after this and in the wrong forum.

Eg ;)

Heya Eggman - Just thought I'd add in a few choice quotes here:

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This is a worldwide war against ideals. There is no separate peace to be made with terrorism.

They are after our way of life and we have to deal with them. There is no other way other than with strength.

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- Condoleeza Rice

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The response to these inhumane crimes wherever they take place - be it London, New York, Moscow or other countries - should be absolute condemnation.

All civilised countries should unite in the fight against international terrorism.

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- Vladimir Putin, President of Russia

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We condemn the attacks in London this morning. We offer our heartfelt sympathies to those who suffered due to such acts.

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- Sheikh Rashid, Pakistani Information Minister

:::blink::: (ok, that one surprised me..)

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I express my horror and disgust at this cowardly attack on innocent people. These sorts of attacks will not alter the determination of free countries to do the right thing.

It's important that we stand shoulder to shoulder with our British allies at a time such as this.

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- John Howard, Prime Minister, AUS

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Israel, which has a long experience of terrorism, shares in the pain of the British people... I hope that the free world will now be less lax in its attitude towards terrorist organisations.

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- Silvan Shalom, Israeli Foreign Minister

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It is a shameful terrorist act that doesn't have any relation to religions and human morals. While I am expressing my deep sorrow to you and through you to the British people and families of victims, I confirm to you our deep will to rid the evil of terrorism in any country as it appears.

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- Ibrahim al-Jaafari, Iraqui Prime Minister

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This is an attack not against a city, this is an attack not against a nation, this was an attack against the whole of mankind.

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- Hamid Karzai, President, Afghanistan

(this one surprised me too.)

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I was devastated by the atrocious bombings that struck London today. These vicious acts have cut us all to the core, for they are an attack on humanity itself.

Today, the world stands shoulder to shoulder with the British people, who with others around the world had mobilised so powerfully against poverty and climate change ahead of the G8 summit, and who, I am sure, will confront this ordeal with the same spirit, courage and determination.

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- Kofi Annan, UN Secretary General

(does this mean the UN will FINALLY quit yammering and act?)

Hi l3lacklce,

Good quotes...

Hope they realize...finally...and they're not just spouting alot of hot air...that every available resource should go into the capture and prosecution of OBL...he is the key...in Hockey terms he's the franchise player...take him out of the game and the team will be alot easier to beat.

Eg ;)

We Americans can't overcome the political stuggle for power and greed for individuals in Washington in order to honestly fight this war. I hope you can. And I hope we help you.

//EDIT The United Nations will never act.

Pissed off with the media and their stupid questions: BBC, ITV, Sky etc, (Some examples)

Question " What did you see"?
Answer from American Tourist" The bus roof was blown off"
Question from stupid insensitive interviewer:"Was it an open top bus, tourist bus"?

Question:" How do you feel, What happened"?
Answer: " I've already told him, he may be good enough to give you the details"(The guy is in shock and covered in blood)
Question : "Yes but what did you see"

Reporter : "We hope there is not a backlash towards the Muslim community", and this has been repeated by many reporters. I feel any backlash will be due to the media's insensitivity and possibly bringing up things that were never thougtht of.

Just how I feel

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(does this mean the UN will FINALLY quit yammering and act?)

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Hmmmmmm........

Let me think about that ...........

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//EDIT The United Nations will never act.

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Damn .........
beaten to the punch line :D

Please do not misunderstand me, I am attempting to be logical and analytical about this one...........

It seems to be rather like a college initiation ritual?..............a group wants to be recognised and supported so they are set a "test"............these were simple blast bombs?.........hey for a few dollars I could have quadrupled the dead and injured figures.

The bus bomb suggests someone bottled out (harris dottle =bottle=anal sphincter) or ran out of time?

To describe four devices exploding in AN HOUR as "co-ordinated" is patently ludicrous.....or maybe my IED training was a bit more rigorous?

This is not "mainstream", this was a test.

:)

Osama Bin Laden has given the ok for groups to act independent and autonomou. Was this a test? I don't know perhaps the quality of coordination is low do to recruiting difficulties. It puzzles me that organizations will kill indiscrimitatly people of the same society that also does much good in the world. Including the US. Take Live 8 for example. The proceeds from the benefit will go to many islamic people. Even though I don't agree with the approach.

The problem with the "War on Terror" is that you can kill off the leaders only to be replaced by new ones. IMO the only way to stop terrorism is to get to the root cause. Most of the foot solders of terrorism are poor, unemployed, and have no hope. The terrorist leaders come and tell these people that the cause of there problem are the coutries and ideas of the west, and if they fight against these forces, they can fixs there problems( giving hope ).
There will always be sadistic and evil people in the world trying to cause death and harm to others, if we can deny them the people they need to carry out there plans then we can reduce terrorism.

Hi MadBeaver,

Like I said...in a perfect world...diplomacy and values...but we don't live in a perfect world.

You suggest we should solve their employment and enviromental and societal problems...when we can't even solve our own...

in a not-perfect world you cut the head off and the body stumbles...yes, they would eventually replace the head...but while they don't have a head, that's when you attack the body.

You'll never eliminate fanatics...but you can make them think twice...and right now they're not, because they don't see the hammer...they only see a stick.

Laws exist to remind us there are consequences to our actions...and those laws ' prevent ' as many crimes as are committed...fear of prosecution/retaliation are the weapons that would prevent many of these crimes from occuring...and right now these people are not afraid..so we need to make them afraid...very afraid!

Eg ;)

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if we can deny them the people they need to carry out there plans then we can reduce terrorism

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How about territory to train and funding sources as well. :)

According to the latest reports these four unemployed, poor and hopeless solders of terrorism were all British citizens.

it's unfortunate that the brits will be deprived the satisfaction of catching and punishing these bastards if indeed they all did die in the blasts as reported.

Hi Tedob 1,

Has this been substantiated? Canadian News reports, through interviews with those in charge on the scene, that they were not suicide bombings and the culprits got away.

As for them being British Citizens...well...aren't most terrorist cells in America operated by American Citizens? I think the first step is to gardner residency then establish permanency, then await the call.

Eg ;)

Yes,

Our police have confirmed that they were Brits, and from the Leeds area, one relative has been arrested.

They all met at London's Kings Cross station just before the bombings.

An Update...

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Police, who had been saying there was no evidence of suicide bombings, indicated that there had been a breakthrough in their inquiry.

"The investigation quite early led us to have concerns about the movements and activities of four men, three of whom came from the West Yorkshire area," Clarke said. "We are trying to establish their movements in the run-up to last week's attacks, and specifically to establish if they all died in the explosions."

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http://www.canada.com/news/world/sto...9-2949be758c25
News | canada.com network

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Some witness accounts suggested the bus bomber may have blundered, blowing up the wrong target and accidentally killing himself. Media reports have quoted a witness who got off the crowded bus just before it exploded as saying he saw an agitated man in his 20s fiddling anxiously with something in his bag.

"Everybody is standing face-to-face and this guy kept dipping into this bag," Richard Jones, 61, of Berkshire, told the BBC.

One theory suggested the attacker may have intended to leave his bomb on the subway but was unable to board because his co-conspirators had already shut the system down.

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aren't most terrorist cells in America operated by American Citizens?

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No sir, it is not the case. That is one of the issues surrounding most detainees at Club Med: Guantanamo. Not US citizens, no constitutional right - Not foreign army nor state affiliation, no Geneva rights. Wonder if Britain look differently upon our situation now? Sure some are American Citizens but the majority are here from foreign soil and here illegally.

RoadClosed

OK so the damn hurricane missed.............I need to do more work on it :)

One thing I will observe though is that I am glad I am not a family member or neighbour of the scum who perpetrated these atrocities..............you may think that the British are civilised?

They stoned daschunds on the streets of London in World War I :eek:

I am NOT saying that it is right, more like inevitable?

C'est la vie?

C'est la vie?

You realist! :)

But I agree. Life, so it is. One thing, I am totally impressed with the drive going forward tp peice together what happened.

RoadClosed

You have this enviable capacity to hit nails on the head, I guess that means that your thumbs don't hurt so much as mine :D

We need to find out HOW and by WHOM , the why bit does not really matter?

I can remember way back being stopped by a police officer at Oxford Street subway station in the centre of London..............the IRA were bombing London then............he asked if he could look in my briefcase.....?

I opened it and he was quite happy....... but, if I were a terrorist I would have drawn and shot him? and he was not armed.

The amusing thing (or sad, perhaps) was that I had 200 rounds (4 boxes) of Winchester Supermatch .450 ACP (FMJSWC) in there......... now in those days they were bright yellow with a big red logo on them?

Maybe terrorists are not supposed to use Olympic Match grade ammo?

Oh Well :rolleyes: :D

NIHIL,

I do with the US media would spend more time on London versus another Bush wanna-be feeding frenzy. More detail would be nice. Good thing I have BBC World News on Sirius, oh Sirius is going to carry BBC Radio One soon (unaltered except for time shift) :thumbsup: . But speaking of Olympics.... I have 6 years to save up and plan for 2012. Too bad the Firkin pubs suck now ( I hear ). I may just head to the Phoenix, Flounder, Ferret, Phantom, etc anyhoo. Good Chinese joint round the corner from Phantom. A pint and pancake roll. :D Why go to the Olympics and brave the crowds and security? .... BECAUSE.

Oh and yeah, why isn't an issue. Can't change the fact our cultures are based on Western Philosphies. We would have to go back 3000 years.

Looks like the people responsible were all citizens and like I heard earlier on BBC. People don't just wake up one day and say "fck it, I am going to bomb a train today." They are trained, coherced, indoctrinated (what ever you call it), by a larger organization who are hiding among you.

Hi RoadClosed,

Hiding amongst us all.

Eg ;)

We know who our domestic terrorists are...

The United States Supreme Court.

Hmmm ... I thought it was university professors?

Oh, yeah, that was last month.
;)

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People don't just wake up one day and say "fck it, I am going to bomb a train

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Starting to look like they had all been to either Pakistan or Afganistan to study 'religion' in the recent past.

Islam doesn't appear to be a particularly violent religion. I'm not sure why it seems to produce fundamentalists witha terror agenda more than other religions. Of course Christianity had the crusades but that was a long time ago. I just don't think I've heard of any fundamentalist Christian groups going out to attack muslims wholesale or fundamentalist Hindu or Buddist terror groups.

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I just don't think I've heard of any fundamentalist Christian groups going out to attack muslims wholesale or fundamentalist Hindu or Buddist terror groups.

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That is what I was trying to communicate in another thread recently.

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I'm not sure why it seems to produce fundamentalists witha terror agenda more than other religions.

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Because we let them. If a christian group gets out of control we destroy them them. Anyone remember David Koresh? With Islam, we are afraid to question their activities and they use that against us. Look at Quatanamo? Front page news for weeks based on a few emails, today page A-17 of the times has a tiny story about how that might not be even true. Even now Blair is "reaching out" to muslims in London. We really need to get a clue. Many times leaders will say words of peace in America to go back East to preach how they have us under their control, for them to just wait to release the wolf on the lambs. In the name of Allah.

And at the same time do any muslim groups come to the news or radio station to say... we do not think like those people who look at a child on a bus and decide to pull the trigger and end all life within a radius. We do not support them and we do not honor them. It just doesn't happen and therefore we let the hate continue to grow and reach out to them. Reach out? I have seen some nasty ideas floating around the electronic beams. Using bullets dipped in pigs blood is one. Anyone know the outcome of those reaching heaven if they are shot with unclean blood?