Soldier's blog closed just minutes ago as debate rages

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The extreme political polarities of the blogosphere--and society--came into sharp relief today with diverse reactions to the fate of Arizona National Guardsman Leonard Clark, who was demoted and fined over a blog posting that the Army said contained classified information. His blog was shut down just minutes ago, with this note posted by "the site administrator": "This issue has spurred heated debate on both sides; however some of the dialogue became very ugly toward each other."

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http://news.com.com/2061-11199_3-581...5902&subj=news
Soldier's blog closed as debate rages | News.blog | CNET News.com

Eg ;)

And continuing this saga of the soldier without a blog to go to...

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The U.S. military has demoted and fined a soldier for publishing "classified" information on his personal blog, an Army spokesperson confirmed Tuesday.

Leonard Clark, a 40-year-old Arizona National Guardsman who is currently on active duty in Baghdad, dropped from the rank of specialist to private first class on July 19 and must pay the Army a fine of $820 per month for two months, according to a statement from U.S. Central Command.

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http://news.com.com/Army+punishes+so...5812&subj=news
Army punishes soldier for blog posts | CNET News.com

Eg ;)


Sheeesh....that was fast! :D

Ah!

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and must pay the Army a fine of $820 per month for two months, according to a statement from U.S. Central Command.

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So, the United States' classified information is worth $1,640?

:confused:

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So, the United States' classified information is worth $1,640?

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its not that it was confidential as much as insensitive. from what I head it was just posts about a lot of casualties and things like that, so the news was out before the military could notify the families.

Hi nihil,

Only in America can you get a deal like that....sweet! :D Does any CIA member have a blog page? :D

Hi XTC,

Still...the guy should've been fined more than that.

Eg ;)


Edit: The only records of his posts and posts on other blogs of his simply condemn the war...all of these posts that were deemed ' sensitive ' or ' insensitive ' seem to have disappeared.

Personally, after reading a few of his posts ( the few that still exist ) I'm split on this one...on one hand he has a code to live up to regardless of his views to not disparge his comrades ( why lower the morale of your fellow soldiers when it won't change anything anyways )...on theotherhand...he has a right to his own opinion.

I thought I heard on the pentagon channel something about him doing some politicking on active duty. I heard he's anti-war (nothing wring with that) and he ran for office a few times and he's trying to get a little senate campaigning done while on active duty. Which without permission from DoD offical Donny Rum is a violation of policy, procedure, regulations etc........ Yeah, go ask Donald Rumsfeld for permission to run as an anti-war candidate while on uncle Sam's dime.I don't think in a time of war you could manage to get a laissez passer from anyone... William S. Cohen, William J. Perry, Les Aspin, Harold Brown etc......

Unless he was posting from a cafe everything he typed should've been absorbed, filtered, processed etc... That's what makes me think that he was just politicking. If he did give active coordinates away with intent I think we would've heard by now. If he posted the names of the fallen before the family knew........

I sure they have all provinces, city names etc...... in a filtering databank.


That's what I thought I heard.

Well...well..long time no see Rust :D Glad you decided to come back...were you kidnapped by a brood of hungry Amazon Women and dragged to the island of Borneo?

Cosmos could use a boost...good timing!

Eg ;)

Does anybody have his site stored ? I'd like to read those deleted posts....Temp Internet Files or something ?

What is the site URL, maybe google has some cached pages...

Hey Hey,

In my opinion... I'm sure no one will agree... this is another example of the lack of freedom in the US.. I'm no pro with American history.. (1 High School Class) but doesn't this violate your First Amendment and wouldn't this be a good time to put the Second Amendment into play? Americans (Read: The NRA) always cries that the Second Amendment grants them the right to bear arms... but it also says "to secure a free state".. so my American forum-mates, why are you all sitting around with your **** and balls between your legs... Why don't you stand up like men... rise up against the government like your laws say you can. Strike out at the evil tyrant. I don't think a single American has the right to post on this forum unless they're agreeing with the actions of the US... which only an idiot will do after read this site (http://bushout.blogspot.com/2005/07/...u-leonard.html) which has reposted some of the blogs. Why do I think you have to agree? Because you're all too chicken **** to take up arms and stand up to your government. You all claim to be patriots, well look at your Constitution and your Bill of Rights... wouldn't the patriotic thing to do be fighting the tyranny and destroying the government?

I'm anti-gun.... but If the Canadian Government were that bad (and it's bad.. but not nearly this bad)... I'd be the first to take up a blade and walk the streets fighting and if I had to killing for my freedom.

That's my opinion... I'm ashamed that my neighbours... The Big Tough Americans to the south are pussies in their own country... You'll boss around others but you won't stand up to the tyrants in your own country? You, as citizens, are no better than anyone you've invaded and yes... they are invasions. Do something... for God's sake... do something.


Another Link to Check out (Read his other postings as well): http://spidel.net/blog/?p=26.

Peace,
HT

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From Here: http://dean4az.blogspot.com/2005/07/...ard-clark.html
In response to my earlier post regarding Clark's "brothers and sisters" The marine corp radio operator thinks somehow I am the coward since I did not address specific instances of Mr. Clark's cowardice. I have read his posts and can give you numerous instances of his cowardice. It is clear he is not a willing participant in this fight and is clearly politically opposed to it. His references to his superior officers is clearly insubordination. Any man that endangers his fellow man to make his political voice heard, is absolutely a coward. And he clearly endagered his fellow soldiers with his daily rants that gave a clear idea of his location, as well as, outlining daily operations. He also wrote, in detail, how to take out our soldiers with snipers. Do you think there is any coincidence that he plans to run for public office with his political agenda already on the table and getting a large amount of press. Why couldn't this man just do his job, that he signed up for by the way!, and wait until he was finished to poke his fingers in the military's eyes. He even describes the advances the Iraqi people are making. He acknowledges the political battles being waged here has a direct impact on our forces morale and lends aid to the enemy by forcing withdrawl dates or cutbacks in troop numbers. If you think this fight will go away if we leave Iraq, you are absolutely wrong and incredibly naive. This war will resurface somewhere else, probably in our own backyard. I am sick and tired of the rhetoric and nonsense I hear about all of conspiracy theories because of the hatred and for our sitting President. These are the same people that lift people like PFC Clark up on a pedestal to support their arguments and agenda regardless of who may be harmed because of Clark's lack of regard for the welfare of his fellow soldiers. I am sure there are plenty of soldiers that share Mr. Clark's views, I am also sure there are plenty more that do not. As to the last response that said "BULLSHIT", How can I respond to such a well thought out retort. Touche'

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As a sargeant he is responsible for the men he commands welfare both physical and mental. To be publishing his thoughts and political asperations, especialy his objections to the war, would be completely demoralising to those he commanded. Hence, I suspect, the demotion.

As for freedom of speech, you loose those rights when you join the armed services. The armed services are not a democratic institution, they are an autocratic institution. They need to be, they could never function as an effective force if it where any other way.

Hey Hey,

I've done a lot of research on the net since you said you give up your freedom of speech upon joining the army... There's a great document on the subject @ http://www.au.af.mil/au/cpd/jagschoo...ers/speech.doc

While it agrees, for the most part with what you say... the General Rules sums it up very nicely.

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A commander of a military installation may restrict freedom of expression if the restriction prevents a clear and present danger to the orderly accomplishment of the mission or to morale, discipline or loyalty.

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From the posts that I've seen, I don't think he was hurting morale.... He was telling it like it is.. If a few air-head army grunts (we all know that's exactly what they are) can't handle someone saying they're in the wrong for being their.. they should prolly turn their guns on themselves... Morale.. boohoo that's a bunch of whining. However, I can see it interpreted that way... in that case the only thing the Military had a right to do was restrict his freedom from that point on... Their own general rule states that.. This is an Air Force document but as far as I could tell they are all governed by the UCMJ. If you wanted to get technical the UCMJ only has one charge that could maybe be twisted into applying and that's Title 10,888 Article 88 - Contempt towards officials.

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Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

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Even that, from what I've read is a stretch..

That is quite the write-up that you've posted jinxy, but at the same time there are others that are military members who have posted on that same page that feel he's being railroaded.

Had there been a clearly stated law/rule that said Don't speak out against the actions of the Army.. then by all means they were right... but there isn't... so they're wrong... Why stand up for the US Military/Government in the first place.... Pick up a gun and strke them down... be the first American to grow balls and do something instead of supporting their witch hunt..

Between this and the whole Bolton Scandal I'm pretty sure that the US is officially a Dictatorship.

Peace,
HT

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That is quite the write-up that you've posted jinxy, but at the same time there are others that are military members who have posted on that same page that feel he's being railroaded.

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**** man, he's been bust down to private and find. Big deal.

I been busted twice. Once also got me seven days loss of pay. That was for having a lady in my accomodation and I hadn't even got down to the reason she was therefore :D

As for military law Im a Brit, so can't comment on the interpritations you make of what you have read. Us Brits have three levels of Law/regulations to abide by. Civil Law(in what ever country you serve and in fact they aplly UK law on top) Queens regulations and The Army Act.

Hi Everybody,

Unfortunately, we don't have all his posts to determine just how far he went...except those few that I did read that were preserved by another site ( original link I posted will lead you to them )...so...we pretty much have to rely upon the opinions of his supporters and his detractors...

Like I said before...I'm split on this one...

ontheonehand, morale, as I said before, is an issue, especially in the military, because low morale causes men to hesitate, slower response rates, distractions, etc...things that can mean the difference between whether you live or die, according to the alertness and confidence you have in what your doing...

and ontheotherhand, freedom of speech is a well fought argument in the States...everyone from the media to the KKK has touted their rights to it...it is perhaps the most celebrated right in the constitution.

Eg ;)

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Between this and the whole Bolton Scandal I'm pretty sure that the US is officially a Dictatorship.

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" Innkeeper, can I have a pint of what HT~ has been drinking! :D

Spot the odd one out:

Adolf Hitler
Benito Mussolini
Josef Stalin
Nero
Caligula
Francisco Franco
Dr. Salazar
George. W. Bush
Napoleon Bonaparte



:D :D

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Originally posted here by nihil
" Innkeeper, can I have a pint of what HT~ has been drinking! :D

Spot the odd one out:

Adolf Hitler
Benito Mussolini
Josef Stalin
Nero
Caligula
Francisco Franco
Dr. Salazar
George. W. Bush
Napoleon Bonaparte



:D :D

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I don't see an odd one out... GWB fits in their perfectly.... give him another year or two and he'll find a way to create a state of emergency so that he has to cancel elections and place himself in total power and then you'll see everything happen.... It's time for Americans to revolt and stop being pussies.

Peace
HT

Wake up HT. IF George does that or any of the socialist democrats who would gladly make us a Marxist state... some of us will fight. IF an imense army can't control a few towel heads, they won't take the republic from those for which it stands. I would gladly take up arms and go underground, leaving all I have behind. Uh oh I think I triggered Eschelon. :p

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a few towel heads

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cute! :bigsmile:

Like Ega said, we haven't read every post. Giving his opinion on military matters may not be a crime, but what purpose did it serve? Maybe it made him feel better getting it off his chest. Next time, keep a diary, soldier.

I have the right to tell a child with leukemia that his/her chance of survival is less than 10%, if its the truth. However, just because I have the right doesnt mean I will. The child is already aware of the circumstances, so why make it worse?

This case is like that to me. When the soldier looks back, do you think he thinks his statements were worth his job? :what:

Irony...

All through-out the war there have been stories like these, where Freedom of speech becomes an issue. Because some idiot who joined a killing force and took an oath all of a sudden woke up to the fact that hey... I am in the "military" duh. What did you think that gun was for? Or that tank, or that grenade or that night scope or that boat or armored car or flack vest?

Even though it makes sense that people in uniform should have some limitations of what they can say. Given the fact that they are representive of the US and it's government. So everyone cries foul, even though the rules are clear.

But put a bible in their hand and let them represent god while in uniforn and all hell breaks loose and freedom of speech suddenly becomes mute. Or let them speek about any ideology the doesn't fit the left and WAHHHHHHHHH. The government must supress them they can't represent that, it fosters government support for something. Doesn't count the other way. And who the hell does he think he is posting the dead before family can be notified. He falls into the fcktwit catagory. But the left idolizes those types. Heros of a broken nation? Lol. //EDIT After all look what it did for John F. Kerry?

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And who the hell does he think he is posting the dead before family can be notified.

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Wasnt there a journalist or photographer a while back (some lady) that got into serious trouble because she took photos of the coffins brought back from overseas and sent them to people?

I think the gov't was upset because they didnt want the American people to see how the bodies were transported or something...

OK,

No more Mr nice guy from me!

This craphead joins his local reserve forces to OBTAIN MONEY FOR HIS SCABBY LITTLE LIFE

Problem is that as a reservist you have to go do what you are told........err.... like kill people, and get killed in the process. That is military life.

Maybe the little gobshite should have thought about that before he signed up for the dollars?

I have NO sympathy.............join a bloody monastery next time.

If I were his CO, and he is damn lucky I am not, he would walk point until he stepped on something nasty, or walked into it.

Frikkin hyppocritical craphead IMHO

I suppose he should have had a dishonourable discharge.............then let him get a job after?

Some people disgust me

:cool:

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I think the gov't was upset because they didnt want the American people to see how the bodies were transported or something

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No government wants THOSE sort of pictures going out ............
and all of the U.S. know that you bring home your dead.

UK policy till the Falklands, was to bury you where you fell. Which explains why we saw pictures of the Black Watch paying tribute in Iraq at a war memorial to their own from WW1.

Gave us some great poetry though:

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The Soldier
Rupert Brooke

If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is forever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam;
A body of England's, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.
And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.

The Soldier
Rupert Brooke

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nah it wasnt that they were being brought home, its how..

i think the pictures showed the bodies in bags in the cargo hold of a commercial plane.
im tryin to find it online...

it made the families feel like the dead were being disrespected.

I WAS WRONG.

They were flag-draped coffins and she was fired for taking the photos.
Apparently, there is a US law banning military coffin photography.

If anything, at least to me those photos showed imeasurable respect to those fallen. That was not the desired effect of publishing those photos however. It's like people think they own the right to do whatever the hell they want at any time with no accountability while crying for the right to privacy. BUT this was discussed in great detail if you search cosmos around the time frame the photos were an issue.

Nihil, my hand was twitching on positive APs over that post as with many over the past few weeks.

Ok, For the record I just skimmed a few of the responses here so I really don't have the full flavor of the Kool Aid just yet, but I need to add in a 'military point of view' pretty pronto on a couple things it seems:

1. The Army fined the guy.

In the service, there are varying levels of 'trouble' and varying levels of how the military deals with said trouble. I've done a bit of cut-and-pasting here. I'll link the source at the bottom of this post.

At the lowest level, called by Navy files as "Captain's mast" we have the CO's NJP - that's Non-Judicial Punishment for you acronym freaks. A CO can punish up to 1 reduction in rank, fine up to one-half of one month's pay for 2 months, and can restrict you to post/base for up to 60 days, requiring extra duty of you the entire time. In the Navy they can also give you 3 days confinement with only bread and water. That's all they can do. This is only if the CO is of rank O-6 or higher (full bird Colonel or 'Captain' in the Navy, also known as 'flag officers'). If he's lower rank, the max he can give is less.

At the next level, we find the Summary Courts Martial. Summary Courts Martials are presided over by one (1) commissioned officer, and are only used for non-capital offenses. In the case of enlisted members above the fourth pay grade, a summary court-martial may impose restriction for no more than two months, forfeiture of two-thirds of one month's pay, and reduction to the next inferior pay grade. In the case of all other enlisted members, the court-martial may also impose confinement for not more than one month and may reduce the accused to the lowest pay grade, E-1.

A Special Courts Martial is where things start getting pretty serious. A special court-martial consists of not less than three members and a military judge, or an accused may be tried by military judge alone upon request of the accused. A special court-martial is often characterized as a misdemeanor court, and may try all persons subject to the UCMJ, including officers and midshipmen. A special court-martial may impose admonition, reprimand, restriction, extra duty, confinement for no more than six months, and forfeiture of two-thirds of a month's pay for six months in all cases. In addition, enlisted members may be reduced to the lowest pay grade, and receive a bad-conduct discharge.

Then comes the Barney Bad-Ass courts martial you never want to see.. A general court-martial consists of not less than five members and a military judge, or an accused may be tried by military judge alone upon request of the accused. A general court-martial is often characterized as a felony court, and may try all persons subject to the UCMJ, including officers and midshipmen. A general court-martial may adjudge any punishment not prohibited by the UCMJ, including death when specifically authorized.


Obviously this guy was tried at less than a special court - probably summary due to the level of his fine.

2. The 'classified information' he leaked wasn't the heavy duty "tell this and die" stuff or he would've been tried at a General Court for treason, and most likely would've gotten life in prison, reduction in rate to E-1, loss of all pay and benefits, and a dishonorable discharge - this being the next closest thing to the death penalty that the military can do to you. Yes, Treason during time of War (as it is now) IS punishable by death. Had this soldier opted to request a General Court (fully within his rights, but only a fool exercises that right, EVER.), he most likely would've gotten the above listed punishment for his crimes.

3. At the very least, he was directly violating an order somewhere, either written or spoken and made available to him for review. This alone is a punishable offense, even if it occurs on an obscure web blog that few will likely read. (would you have read it had this not occurred?).


Ok, he got away cheap, but only because that was the most the court that tried him could get away with fining him. I somehow have the feeling he *still* won't do it again.

4. The classified stuff - how they handle things when it's leaked:

First the powers that be look to see what info was leaked and how bad the leak was. In this case it was worst case for the lowest level - confidential material was leaked to the entire world via the internet. They then weigh out how severe the damage is to us by the leak of this info. They then levy punishment recommendations accordingly. In this soldier's case, it was most likely his own command's investigating team that acted as 'the powers that be,' and made their recommendations to their superiors based both upon his infraction, and his level of performance. This being the case, either the guy was one hot solider, or the junk he leaked was minor.

Ok, ya got my 2 cents worth although belatedly. Here's my source for info on Courts Martial.
http://www.military.com/Resources/Re...902--0,00.html

You might also take a look at the Uniform Code of Military Justice sometime - it's very interesting reading. This is what all US soldiers and sailors are held responsible for in addition to existing laws - they CAN be tried in both civilian and military courts for either, and the double jeopardy rule does not apply. Tough existance just to serve one's country eh?

Find a copy of the UCMJ here:
http://www.military-network.com/main_ucmj/main_ucmj.htm

I found a repost of his blog and he said something along the lines of " I'll win when I get back home". That's politicking without permission. You don't jump rank like that and get away with it.

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Originally posted here by HTRegz

I'd be the first to take up a blade and walk the streets fighting and if I had to killing for my freedom.

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"pussies"........... Wow what a bigot calling 90+% of AO's visitors and members that .....leave that to the non-administrators/mods.

Sit your lard ass down kid with all that squawking. The only blade you've probably ever raised was a butter knife in a glutton bowl competition. You couldn't get your bitch **** out of the way quick enough to even raise a gun in battle. And you’re all out here talking about leading a crusade.


This doesn't have anything to do with freedom of speech. He broke the chain of command by politicking on the Internet without permission from the secretary of state. Period end of story. The military owns him and he's at their disposal.

So hey hey's personal attacks went untouched and unchallenged by anyone in authority. I can't wait to see the outcome of mine. Political bias runs deep in the administration here I'd presume.

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Political bias runs deep in the administration here I'd presume.

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Duh? :D

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Originally posted here by !mitationRust
"pussies"........... Wow what a bigot calling 90+% of AO's visitors and members that .....leave that to the non-administrators/mods.

Sit your lard ass down kid with all that squawking. The only blade you've probably ever raised was a butter knife in a glutton bowl competition. You couldn't get your bitch **** out of the way quick enough to even raise a gun in battle. And you’re all out here talking about leading a crusade.


This doesn't have anything to do with freedom of speech. He broke the chain of command by politicking on the Internet without permission from the secretary of state. Period end of story. The military owns him and he's at their disposal.

So hey hey's personal attacks went untouched and unchallenged by anyone in authority. I can't wait to see the outcome of mine. Political bias runs deep in the administration here I'd presume.

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Hey Hey (Like that?)

Last time I checked this was cosmos... I can say whatever I want regardless of who I am... Who said anything about personal attacks... I'm attacking all Americans for being "pussies" as you so eloquently put it. I'd be more than willing to lead a crusade and that's what you Americans would do if you had any brains... yes I was attacking a good chunk of AOs visitors.... This is supposed to be an open forum free of APs (that rule has obviously not been followed) and open to any opinion... I expressed my opinion. As far as standing in a fight... I've been in enough and I've got the scars from knives to prove it.... That has nothing to do with this... fighting should be avoided at all cost.... That's why I question you Americans... The one thing you should fight for (your freedom) is the one thing you are unwilling to fight for... instead you follow a tyrant and stomp the rights of others to make yourselves feel big and powerful. It's ****ing ridiculous... members of the American military should speak out against the atrocity that is occuring or they should kill themselves. They should take from the example of the samuri and kill themselves because they have lost face. There's no political bias... It's freedom of speech... If you enjoy having your rights trampled then by all means, continue on your current path, I for one wouldn't stand for that... I'd rather die free than live in bondage... That statement alone should explain present situtations around the world for you Americans... Other countries would rather die themselves, sacrifice themselves then live in the world of shackles that the US Government is attempting to impose.

I just find it funny that the most oppressed people in the world are the ones that claim to have the most freedom.

Peace,
HT