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I've read a bit about http://onguardonline.gov/index.html on some Dutch newssite. Apparantly a new website sponsored by the US government to educate the average computer user about computer security.
It could be interesting for some people although we experts know everything about this subject already. :D
Hi katja,
I think it's already been done.
Eg ;)
Well, according to the newssite where I read about it, this site is new. Otherwise, consider it an useful reminder. :)
Hi katja,
Errrr....AO is a website designed to educate the average computer user about computer security.Quote:
a new website sponsored by the US government to educate the average computer user about computer security.
And if I'm not mistaken...in fact I've made threads about this myself...the last I read the US Government, Homeland Security, the FAA, the FBI, etc...have all received failing grades for their own security...why would I go to any site they would recommend?
That would be kinda like getting dental recommendations from someone with no teeth.:D
Eg ;)
Or hair recommendations from a bald person... :D
Am not advising this page, actually. We're the experts so we know all this already. :p <edit>Smiley added as suggested by Aspman.</edit> It's just that it could be interesting for some. A good exercise in "finding the flaws". ;) Then again, if the information on that site does contain good information, it will be a good site to advise to others. Question is, does it provide good information?
Btw, although AO is a good site for technicians to get lots of useful information, not everyone is as technically adept as the members here. I think AO is a bit too advanced for the average hobby-user or office-only user. There are still users out there who don't even know the difference between Internet Explorer and Outlook Express... (Or webbrowsing and email.)
Ooooh cringe. That needs a :p at the end I'm sure.Quote:
We're the experts so we know all this already.
Those are the better users. Not knowing the difference between a keyboard and a computer is one of the better ones I've heard of late. The usual is that they either don't know the difference between the monitor and the case or they call the case the hard drive.Quote:
There are still users out there who don't even know the difference between Internet Explorer and Outlook Express... (Or webbrowsing and email.)
There is a UK government IT advice site for home users. I think it is similarly awful.
I can't find it quickly (shows you how good it must be), 2 of the government sites I did find in a few mins searching (from a gov portal) were down or had bad links. Nice one TB :cuss:
That reminds me of something. I have a PDA with TomTom routeplanner and a few weeks ago someone asked me if I knew how to get at some address. I said: "No, but I'll look it up for you." and turned on the GRPS receiver, the PDA, strted TomTom and typed in the address where he had to go. And then I could tell him exactly how to get there. :) We stood there talking for ten more minutes because he really wanted to know more about that little device of mine since he'd never even heard of them. When you're working for the IT branche it is very easy to forget that many people don't even know about 5% of all the things that are possible these days.Quote:
Originally posted here by Aspman
Those are the better users. Not knowing the difference between a keyboard and a computer is one of the better ones I've heard of late. The usual is that they either don't know the difference between the monitor and the case or they call the case the hard drive.
And of course there are still people with a VCR with a blinking clock because they just don't know how to set the time properly. And many people who just buy a mobile phone because everyone else has one, yet don't even know how to use it to call someone. :)
We are experts because we at least know these things. There are many people who just use these devices because they have to but who aren't willing to learn more about them simply because they're not interested in this subject. Many people even consider computers to be very boring...
Out of curiosity, I'd like to see you point out some stuff you think is to advanced. And I'd also like for you to attempt to point out what you think places you above average.Quote:
Btw, although AO is a good site for technicians to get lots of useful information, not everyone is as technically adept as the members here. I think AO is a bit too advanced for the average hobby-user or office-only user.
It starts already on the homepage. :) If you're a complete newbie in the computer world and you're suddenly confronted with computers because e.g. your child gets one from school, a site like AO would be extremely complex for those people. Simple things like conference rooms, avatars, forums, bookmarks, buddy lists, antipoints, profiles and even the log in/log out options. If you're experienced with computers and a bit smart, it's easy to just discover what those things are. If you're a complete newbie with the average IQ of 100, those things can be pretty complex...Quote:
Originally posted here by My SuperMan Ego
Out of curiosity, I'd like to see you point out some stuff you think is to advanced. And I'd also like for you to attempt to point out what you think places you above average.
There are still quite a lot of people out there who know absolutely nothing about computers and who don't really want to know more about them either. But for whatever reason sooner or later they might have to work with those "horrible things". ;) That's not easy, if you're new to it.
I think what My SuperMan Ego is maybe getting at it that it's 'bad form' to call yourself an expert.
It implies you rate yourself as 'better' than others and not just in IT.
It's a complement to be called an expert but arrogant to call yourself an expert.
It's a cultural thing and certainly true in the UK.
If anyone asks me if I'm a 'computer expert' I tend to say 'I know a bit'.
I consider myself knowledgable in IT but not an expert.
I must be an arrogant git.Quote:
Originally posted here by Aspman
I think what My SuperMan Ego is maybe getting at it that it's 'bad form' to call yourself an expert.
It implies you rate yourself as 'better' than others and not just in IT.
It's a complement to be called an expert but arrogant to call yourself an expert.
It's a cultural thing and certainly true in the UK.
If anyone asks me if I'm a 'computer expert' I tend to say 'I know a bit'.
I consider myself knowledgable in IT but not an expert.
I consider myself an expert in certain computer areas...
I'd better be, cause I'm paid to be.
Steve
Hmmm... Let's put it this way then. I've spent half my live doing all kinds of things with computers. If that doesn't qualify me a little bit as experts in computers (general) then I've probably wasted all that time. :) And well... Arrogance... Yeah, one of my flaws. Then again, some of my friends do consider me an expert in computers so I think I've earned that title. Besides, I didn't just consider me as an expert. I consider almost all members here to be experts in some way in relation to computers. This compared to people who can't find the on/off button of a computer, of course. :D
The guy who first invented the wheel was the best experts in the automobile sector back then. :) At least he knew the best shape for the wheel... It's just a relative term in my opinion.
Hi katja,
Aspman is absolutely correct...and this is why you had a few problems before...poor choice of language...as a result you came across as arrogant and self-important...if you're still here a year from now it may even become an endearing quality...
but for now it's just annoying.
Arrogance itself is not a bad thing...it's what separates the Jordan's and the Wood's and the Bond's from the rest of us...but...
Eg ;)
Anyone can browse around this site based on... reading ability?Quote:
It starts already on the homepage. :) If you're a complete newbie in the computer world and you're suddenly confronted with computers because e.g. your child gets one from school, a site like AO would be extremely complex for those people. Simple things like conference rooms, avatars, forums, bookmarks, buddy lists, antipoints, profiles and even the log in/log out options. If you're experienced with computers and a bit smart, it's easy to just discover what those things are. If you're a complete newbie with the average IQ of 100, those things can be pretty complex...
There are still quite a lot of people out there who know absolutely nothing about computers and who don't really want to know more about them either. But for whatever reason sooner or later they might have to work with those "horrible things". ;) That's not easy, if you're new to it.
And yet you target the illiterate to make it appear that you're some how better or in your own words above average. Good job, Katja.Quote:
Hmmm... Let's put it this way then. I've spent half my live doing all kinds of things with computers. If that doesn't qualify me a little bit as experts in computers (general) then I've probably.
a few points:
1. anyone that is simply worldly wouldnt go to the govt. for advice on anything, i think we can all agree on that
2. i have been here and learned a lot here but there are sections and threads that are beyond my comprehension, not because my grasp of the language is poor but because a. its stuff that really doesnt interest me and isnt important to me, security-wise (at this time) b. its just way beyond my skill level at this time...........having admitted this my skill level isnt something to sniff at.....depending where yours is anyways.....the ones that proclaim themselves knowledgeable simply because they work in the field, well aol techs do to, say hi to your PEERS for me.....but what i learned here a long time ago isnt about what you know but about gaining the skills to learn how to solve the problems....theres simply too much to know (except for you aol like techies) so some of what i learned here was where to seek out answers.........Google is always a good place to start :D
True, eg. I am arrogant enough to admit that I'm arrogant. :D But again, I mentioned "we, experts" and not "me, expert". I consider you and aspman to be experts too. And so is Steve, who bravely admits he's an arrogant git. Almost all members here are experts in some part of the computer industry. Thus, in general we, the members, are computer experts. (Even if your knowledge is limited to maintaining your personal administration within Excel.)
All I am saying is that there are many people out there who are avoiding computers as much as possible. They are the ones who get nervous from all those ATM machines and who never can remember their pincode so they write it on the back of their bank cards... There are people who buy a keyboard and monitor and then think they own a whole computer. I remember that someone broke into some school about 6 years ago and took away several monitors while leaving all the desktop PC's, thinking the monitors were the most expensive parts. (Probably thought they were all Mac's...) Considering how bulky and heavy those monitors were, it's not real smart...
And although we might be "experts" with computers, it still doesn't make us any better than others. So stop thinking that way, ego. Being an expert just means you know more about a certain topic. It doesn't mean you're better than someone else in general.
There are computer illiterates out there and sooner or later they will use a computer for something. Maybe just to get cash out of an ATM machine. Or maybe a mother who buys one for her child to help his studies at school. What do they know about computer security? My own grandmother can't even remember the pincode of her bankpass so she has written it down on a piece of paper in her wallet. (Yet she can remember that she needs to read it backwards, from right to left...) The things I do with my computer seem miraculous to her. It doesn't make me a better person than her. (At least she's a better driver than me because she's been driving nearly 50 years without a scratch and I've already had two minor accidents with my car so to me, she's an expert driver. :))
The point is ego has nothing to do with computers :rolleyes: , it is just a tool, a car mechanicQuote:
And although we might be "experts" with computers, it still doesn't make us any better than others. So stop thinking that way, ego. Being an expert just means you know more about a certain topic. It doesn't mean you're better than someone else in general.
is more skilled in fixing cars than dealing with computers, but that does not make him
inferior or superior
Thats a grand leap of faith to call me an expert :D
I might just be expert in BS.
'Expert' is one of those words like 'Hacker'. They bring a lot of baggage with them and a weight of expectation depending on the context in which they are used.
I don't like them or use them often for that reason.
Unless you are sure you are an expert relative to the audience you are writing/speaking to, it's best not to place that title on yourself.
I usually stay out of these kind of conversations, but I found this one to be funny. I usually take this kind of comment to mean something from somebody who is 40, 50, 60+ and has spent 20+ years doing something. Not sure that half your life, at your age is something to be bragging about.. Just my thought though... I think the reality of what you don't know vs. what you do know is something that hits you in your 20's.Quote:
I've spent half my live doing all kinds of things with computers.
Steve.Milner probably has 15 to 20+ years of work experience, so he probably does have the qualifications to be called an expert in certain areas of computers. But is knowing how to use an OS, and knowing how to configure things in that OS, really being an expert? I think there is a certain amount of experience that you have to have before you can really be called and expert. And a lot of that experience is work experience.
I've never met an HR person that is interested in how long you have been using computers in your free time. I've seen plenty of people come out of college thinking they are experts just to get a smackdown when they realize they may be knowledgable, but are far from experts.
Good driver yes, expert driver? No. Expert driver would be Mario Andretti, Michael Schumacher, Kimi Raikkonen, et. al...Quote:
At least she's a better driver than me because she's been driving nearly 50 years without a scratch and I've already had two minor accidents with my car so to me, she's an expert driver.
The Oxford guide to concise english says: "expert.
n. A person who is very knowledgeabout or skillful in a particular area.
adj. having or involving in specialized knowledge or skill."
So am I arrogant in assuming that members here are experts? Are you saying that AO has some non-experts too? :) In my opinion, operating a modern computer is a special skill which many people in this world still can't understand. And I'm not talking about illiterate bushmen from Africa or whatever. I'm thinking about the elderly and those people who never have been interested in this stuff to begin with. I know several people who are amazed about my computer skills. They're not that special compared to anyone else in the same branch but for those who are unfamiliar with computers, it's really amazing.
If computers were magic then I'd just be an amateur magician. But many people will still be amazed by the smallest tricks that I can perform.
Hi katja,
There's nothing wrong with arrogance...in fact it's what motivates a person to excel over others...in a game of one-on-one Jordan has to believe he can beat Barkley...or he won't.
There's nothing wrong with being an expert either.
I agreed with Asp in regards to the fact most people, myself included, just don't like to hear about it...let your answers speak for themselves.
Eg ;)
EDIT: I gave you greens because you've taken a little criticism and you haven't let it get you all bent out of shape because of it...that's good...you're progressing nicely :D
Quote:
The Oxford guide to concise english says: "expert.
n. A person who is very knowledgeabout or skillful in a particular area.
adj. having or involving in specialized knowledge or skill."
So am I arrogant in assuming that members here are experts? Are you saying that AO has some non-experts too? :) In my opinion, operating a modern computer is a special skill which many people in this world still can't understand. And I'm not talking about illiterate bushmen from Africa or whatever. I'm thinking about the elderly and those people who never have been interested in this stuff to begin with. I know several people who are amazed about my computer skills. They're not that special compared to anyone else in the same branch but for those who are unfamiliar with computers, it's really amazing.
If computers were magic then I'd just be an amateur magician. But many people will still be amazed by the smallest tricks that I can perform.
Aside the poo slinging I consider myself an average person. Im not impressed at all but I too find it amazing that someone would let you operate any sort of machinery yet alone drive. You telling others how they should think... now thats just out of line and down-right insulting.Quote:
So stop thinking that way, ego. Being an expert just means you know more about a certain topic. It doesn't mean you're better than someone else in general.
But, according to what you have allready said, you would be an expert magician. You know more magic than they do, so therefore you are an expert.Quote:
If computers were magic then I'd just be an amateur magician. But many people will still be amazed by the smallest tricks that I can perform.
Now, doesn't that sound silly?
Man, some people can take a subject with little controversy and just make a major drama out of it.
By the definition of what some of you consider a computer expert, noone is. You're almost saying that to be an expert you have to have the answer to every question in that subject. Noone does. I challenge everyone to come up with one thing that has progresses as fast as computers.
20 years of experience in computers does you NO GOOD. The computers from 10 years ago are so diverse than the computers of today. I personally am 25, and started diddling with computers around the age of 6. Does this mean I have 20 years of experience? I guess it does, but the computers I used then were commodores and have no bearing on what I can do with a computer today.
I would say that a computer expert is someone with a vast technical knowledge of any subject involving computers. Computers is such a broad field that includes, workstations, servers, networks, security, programming, etc.
Theres no reason to cause strife here.
But if you look at the past twenty years of business computing not that much has changed, except windows. Unix is pretty much the same, MVS is the same, networking has become more widespread and faster but the basic principles are the same. OSI has been around since 1982...Quote:
Originally posted here by zENGER
20 years of experience in computers does you NO GOOD. The computers from 10 years ago are so diverse than the computers of today. I personally am 25, and started diddling with computers around the age of 6. Does this mean I have 20 years of experience? I guess it does, but the computers I used then were commodores and have no bearing on what I can do with a computer today.
I would say that a computer expert is someone with a vast technical knowledge of any subject involving computers. Computers is such a broad field that includes, workstations, servers, networks, security, programming, etc.
Now computing has definitely changed in the home user market, but I don't see how it has changed in the business world with the exception of size and speed.
I never made any mention on who I think is or is not an expert. I just found one comment funny, and commented on it. Take what you wish from that. There is only one member on this site that I have followed enough of their posts to make that kind of determination, and that person is an expert when it comes to complying with standardized security measures, and compliance/knowledge with regulations. I've seen plenty of bad or just completely wrong answers from other members, and I know I've made some bad suggestions in retrospect. Honestly i don't have enough knowledge of most members to make any assumptions of skill level. Handing out the "expert" label is something that I don't do very often. I guess I'm not easily impressed.
Back to the original topic. I think most topics covered on this site can easily be grasped by novice computer users. There are quit a few tutorials that are well written and properly targeted to beginning computer users. There are also some very poorly written tutorials and posts.. But it is pretty easy to filter those out.
Eg, I always do like a little criticism. This world would be boring if everyone just agreed with me. :D
And while the members here are all just average persons, myself included, there's still the fact that many members here do have some good knowledge about computer topics.
And devpon, for those who know about magic, I'd be an amateur. For those who know nothing, I'd either be a God or a Devil... (Unless they're smart enough to figure out the truth.)
There are 6 billion people in this world and I wonder how many millions of them have some good computer experience. Would it be more or less that 50 million people who work regularly with computers?
Take a room and fill it with 1000 experts. Take the expert with the least knowledge compared to all others. The question then is if he's still an expert or not. You could say he's not because all others know more than he does. So if you remove him from the room, you'd have 999 experts left, and another one with the least knowledge. Continue to remove those and you end up with this whole world having only one single expert. (Or maybe a few more if they all have the same knowledge.)
So, how much do you need to know about computers (in general) to call yourself an expert?
I didn't have the fortitude to read each and every post in this thread (I have a low BS threashold)
However, I thought I would post this for the enth time
Bollox,............................................................Xspurt==Quote:
The Oxford guide to concise english says: "expert.
n. A person who is very knowledgeabout or skillful in a particular area.
adj. having or involving in specialized knowledge or skill."
X: is an unknown quantity.
Spurt: is a drip under pressure
Until your name is being spread all over the security circles then well I wouldn't be calling myself and expert anytime soon ...
B.T.W anyone take the quizzes on that site ??? I used my expertise and knowledge to get all the questions right ...
.... It does contain some useful info though ...
Quote:
Originally posted here by Katja
The Oxford guide to concise english says: "expert.
n. A person who is very knowledgeabout or skillful in a particular area.
adj. having or involving in specialized knowledge or skill."
So am I arrogant in assuming that members here are experts? Are you saying that AO has some non-experts too? :) In my opinion, operating a modern computer is a special skill which many people in this world still can't understand. And I'm not talking about illiterate bushmen from Africa or whatever. I'm thinking about the elderly and those people who never have been interested in this stuff to begin with. I know several people who are amazed about my computer skills. They're not that special compared to anyone else in the same branch but for those who are unfamiliar with computers, it's really amazing.
If computers were magic then I'd just be an amateur magician. But many people will still be amazed by the smallest tricks that I can perform.
"expert - a person with special knowledge or ability who performs skillfully"
"smart - showing mental alertness, calculation and resourcefulness"
while there may be many experts here it's just not smart to call yourself one.
Well, okay. Let's keep it simple then... How much does someone need to know to call himself (or herself) a computer expert? :) How do you judge if someone is an expert or not?
And wow... Lots of replies that are unrelated to the original topic. :D
It's not up to the individual to decide whether they consider themselves an expert or not but it all comes down to what your peers think ...Quote:
Well, okay. Let's keep it simple then... How much does someone need to know to call himself (or herself) a computer expert? How do you judge if someone is an expert or not?
Expert
That might explain why some people steer from using that word ...Quote:
The term is widely used informally, with people being described as 'experts' in order to bolster the relative value of their opinion, when no objective criteria for their expertise is available. The term crank is likewise used to disparage opinions. Academic elitism arises when 'experts' become convinced that only they understand their field of study (or anything at all).
It would have stayed on topic if you had not used the word "expert" ...
Just out of curiosity did you intentionally use that word so that it would cause some discussion amongst the members ???
Lol, then I'm a computer expert since several friends of mine have referred to me as a computer expert. :D Especially because I started with programming since age 11, I tend to have some good knowledge that friends of mine really appreciate. They come to me with sometimes the weirdest questions, almost expecting me to know the answer. And if I ask why they ask me, their answer tends to be that I'm the so-called expert according to them.Quote:
Originally posted here by Agent_Steal
It's not up to the individual to decide whether they consider themselves an expert or not but it all comes down to what your peers think ...
Then again, several of my friends including my lover are computer-illiterates anyway... For them, I'm the expert. Here, I'm just an amateur. :)
No, nope. I thought several members here would actually like it to be referred to as experts. Because I did say "we experts". Many members here have some pretty good knowledge about security and other computer-related subjects. Why is it wrong to assume they are experts in their field of computer-related topics?Quote:
Originally posted here by Agent_Steal
It would have stayed on topic if you had not used the word "expert" ...
Just out of curiosity did you intentionally use that word so that it would cause some discussion amongst the members ???
Maybe in this forum, most of us are just amateurs with a few real masters. But if you look at the real world then people with good computer knowledge are still reasonable rare. I think I also have a good understanding of computer-illiterate people since I'm very attracted to one of them. ;)
Let me put it this way umm Technician sounds like a really good word at the moment ....Quote:
Lol, then I'm a computer expert since several friends of mine have referred to me as a computer expert.
Like I pointed out already ...Quote:
Why is it wrong to assume they are experts in their field of computer-related topics?
Quote:
The term is widely used informally, with people being described as 'experts' in order to bolster the relative value of their opinion, when no objective criteria for their expertise is available.
[1] Rare ??? I wouldn't think so .... What's good computer knowledge ???Quote:
Maybe in this forum, most of us are just amateurs with a few real masters. But if you look at the real world then people with good computer knowledge are still reasonable rare. I think I also have a good understanding of computer-illiterate people since I'm very attracted to one of them.
[2] I could say that I also have a good understanding of computer illiterate people as well since my own mother has troubles using one. But that just means that I have a good understanding of one individual not a multitude .....
Puts on flame suit ....
B.T.W. I know that there are plenty of people on this forum that know what they are talking about ... The exception with them is that they dont go around labeling themselves as that ...
Gah... what's this thread about again?
It's funny how some people's words get dissected like it's Bible Code being studied, while others can spout nonsense a volonte without scrutiny.
Your grandmother?Quote:
Maybe in this forum, most of us are just amateurs with a few real masters. But if you look at the real world then people with good computer knowledge are still reasonable rare. I think I also have a good understanding of computer-illiterate people since I'm very attracted to one of them.
I am proud to proclaim that I am an expert in all areas of internet pr0n.
Didn't you have a camel toe avatar? Now that was sexy...Quote:
My toes are sexy
d0pp, I hate feet.Quote:
My toes are sexy
<stands back to watch thread degenerate into a foot fetish discussion>
Well, she's cute too, but no. :pQuote:
Gets the fire extinguisher.Quote:
Originally posted here by Agent_Steal
Puts on flame suit ....
B.T.W. I know that there are plenty of people on this forum that know what they are talking about ... The exception with them is that they dont go around labeling themselves as that ...
Well, I might be considered an expert when I'm amongst friends but I must admit, here I'm just an amateur. I feel that the term can be used relatively to the people aound you.
Who had a cameltoe avatar and why are the feet of camels sexy? :D The average camel toe is too hairy anyways.Quote:
Don't know if you'll be able to wiki for 'camel toe':DQuote:
why are the feet of camels sexy?
Google images with the safesearch off should reveal all.