Linux experts needed

I am writing a paper for the ACM (those bastards expect me to occaionally contribute) and I need some Linux experts. I will just ask a few questions of you, depending on your own self-declared areas of expertise and if your answers are used I will cite you and either your company or personal webpage or whatever you like.

The subject of the paper is an investigative report on why I don't think Linux meets my, rather typical needs. Is it because Linux just isn't capable, is it because the functionality is so diverse that it is hard to navigate, or is it because I am just uneducated? (hopefully this will help outline trouble areas for other people trying to consider the switch to linux)

Anyhow, I'll be recruiting from elsewhere of course, but I thought it might be fun for some of you.. I am on a strict schedule however so you'll only have a day or two to respond to each question.

If you are interested, please reply here with our area of expertise and favorite distro.

cheers,

catch

Quote:

---

The subject of the paper is an investigative report on why I don't think Linux meets my, rather typical needs. Is it because Linux just isn't capable, is it because the functionality is so diverse that it is hard to navigate, or is it because I am just uneducated? (hopefully this will help outline trouble areas for other people trying to consider the switch to linux)

---

IMHO, it's rarely the case of the end user being uneducated, unless they really don't want to be doing what they're doing in the first place. For example a company forcing users to use certain distros of linux, because it's what *THEY* want, and not what the end user wants. To me, linux is far from not being capable.

But enough rambling, i'd love to answer some questions. I'm a linux enthusiast and i'll stop right there. No need for other self-declarations.

Right now, slack is probably my most used distro.

Sounds like a pretty fun project btw.
-Steve

Hey Hey,

I'd definately be interested in reading the paper when it's finish and I'm definately interested in helping if you need it.

Distro of Choice: Right now I'm torn between SuSE and Ubuntu but I've got FC4, Libranet and Vector Linux installed as well

Area of Expertise: I use Linux as a desktop OS, I use it for all my python development, I've supported an environment of 200+ Programmers running RH9 and later SuSE, I use it for security tools and just to play... so pretty much anything is game I guess.

Peace,
HT

As long as you fix my broken english, I'm willing to contribute..

I've been using GNU/Linux as my main desktop (at home) for quite some time.. (over 5 years)
Using it for a wide variety of tasks (Editing word documents, surfing the www, programming C and C++ in KDEvelop ,playing games and now even my taxes (thx OSOSS))

At work we have a blend of Windows desktops and linux servers.
The servers are used for mail, httpd, databases (postgres) and a wide variety of scripts and programs..

I'm mainly using Slackware (home and hobby) and SuSE (work)..
And I even got gentoo to install (stage 3) and do what it was needed for ;)

I'm a Gentoo user (it's in the sig, innit?) and I'd be glad to help out.

Usually, people stick to Windows because it's what they know. My understanding of the (very simplified) problem is this:
1) People don't know anything but Windows. They want their start button and their mouse (you can have both in Linux, but moving on..)
2) FUD. Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. Microsoft does a good job of spreading that, saying that Windows is better and why would you trust Linux anyway? Etc etc.


Area of expertise : *shrug* I can find my way around configuration files and I know enough to be able to use any distribution fairly easily.
Chances are I broke it and fixed it before.. :)
But I'm just an end-user, really (yeah, those exist for Linux)

As a linux user who migrated from windows after only 3 years of using M$ products I can honestly say linux is just as easy to use and capable as windows or mac os.

I have recently started a list of applications in Linux that do the same or more in linux.
The list is very small right now, please feel free to offer more input anyone.

http://keo-geek.cjb.net/w2l.htm

I am no "On-paper" expert but I have been using linux as a hard core desktop replacment since 1998, and feel very comfortable with it.
I have used mandrake, suse, ubuntu, kubuntu, redhat fc 1, 2, 3, and 4. My OS of choice is slackware. Running slack 10.2 right now. Been running it since 7.2

And with the KDE windowing system linux is just as easy to install and operate as any other OS.

Feel free to ask any questions you might have. I'll be more than happy to try to help out.
As far as being recognized, I'm a bit shy so no need to.

Or Ki$$ my A$$

Ho ho............The great catch needs help?...............he comes to us?

We know bugger all about security?

What does he know...........except how to get some butts that far up?

I have seen who has fallen for it........

:mad:

You might try this guy: http://www.zip.com.au/~akpm/
Seems like he might know something that could be of use.


-Maestr0

Spaz, save yourself the trouble:
http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-l...en/table.shtml

Ok... first off, this thread is not the place to discuss Linux's capabilities, if you would like to contribute simply post your area of expertise and favorite distro.

Nothing else is needed at this time, or will be considered. Also, please keep in mind, some questions will be simple, others very complicated.

nihil, a few things, first this isn't just about security. Second it is largely about experts' persepectives. If you'd like to contribute, great.. if not, there are many other threads to gripe in.

cheers,

catch

SUSE
Slackware


SUSE:

Installation

Configuration

Locking down

Pretty much anything



Slackware:

Installation

.... ah just ask




Both:


Package Management

Desktop

Laptops

Servers

Workstations

Media centers (Using them for Music and Movies)

Use for day to day tasks like Checking Email, Web surfing, Chatting, IRC, IM, Home use, Office use.

Thanks Trevoke i'll have to bookmark that site.

See learn something new everyday.

Secondly

Catch I guess you didn't make it clear.

Quote:

---

The subject of the paper is an investigative report on why I don't think Linux meets my, rather typical needs. Is it because Linux just isn't capable, is it because the functionality is so diverse that it is hard to navigate, or is it because I am just uneducated? (hopefully this will help outline trouble areas for other people trying to consider the switch to linux)

---

Sounds to me like your paper is on why YOU don't think linux is capable for YOUR needs. All we are saying is linux is capable and giving you some reasons why. A good paper looks at both sides not just one, even a paper on why something doesn't work usually highlights a few points that it does work for.

Quote:

---

Sounds to me like your paper is on why YOU don't think linux is capable for YOUR needs. All we are saying is linux is capable and giving you some reasons why. A good paper looks at both sides not just one, even a paper on why something doesn't work usually highlights a few points that it does work for.

---

Sorta... the question falls to does the system have the capacity or is there some other reason why I don't know how to make it meet my requirements.?
I am just researching why I think Linux won't meet my requirements and how accurate that thinking is... there aren't two sides to cover.

cheers,

catch

So far...

15 out of 50 decided that they were not expert enouh
27 out of 35 have answered the first question
1 out of 27 have answered the second question
0 out of 1 have answered the third question
0 out of 0 have answered the fourth
0 out of 0 have answered th fifth and last question

The really interesting thing is the diversity of the answers, it doesn't seem that there are no widely accepted methods of doing what i asked in the first question. Many users have cited development/research level solutions, but stating that these shouldn't be trusted in professional environments, others mention these solutions as being just fine. Lastly some just stated that my requirements are wrong... always an interesting aproach.

This conflicting data already has me seeing why I think Linux doesn't meet my needs. Conflicting information leaves me clueless as to who or what I should trust and as a security professional, I always go with the lowest appraisal. That way at least I'll error on the safe side.

All that side... one expert told me that what I was asking isn't even theoretically possible given the structure of Linux and that is why all the solutions never make it out of the research phase. He had some interesting alternative solutions that I will address in the paper.

Thanks again to everyone that is contributing. Don't worry, once I get all the answers from each question, I'll post them... let you all see if you can come to an agreement. ;)

cheers,

catch

Quote:

---

it doesn't seem that there are no widely accepted methods of doing what i asked in the first question.

---

Well the beauty of Linux is, you have the ability to make it do what ever you want. You just have to have the ability. I have not got that ability, though I would like it.

You haven't sent the third one to me yet. I just sent you the second answer. ;)

For the whole not accepted methods thing, I think that may have a but to do with the fact Linux isn't made to make you do one thing to achieve any given job. I mean just common things you'd do each day have probably 70 ways of doing them everything form Perl scripts to bash scripts to doing commands by hand.

SORRY ONLY KNOW A LITTLE ABOUT KNOPPIX 4.0 BUT ITS VERY SIMILAR

catch : yup. That's exactly the issue with GNU/Linux, as well as one of its strengths : it's very, very diversified.

Name: ech0
Tittle: linux enthusiast
Distros: Redhat 6,7,8,9, Suse, Slackware, FC, Centos (bit) SuSE (little less) SMOOTHWALL (hehe)
Server Side XP: DNS, Apache, MySQL/PG-SQL, Samba (as PDC/BDC), OpenMozix (clustering), Nessus
Home XP: Video/mp3/chat (irc[bitchx/ircii/xchat],email[pine,kmail,evolution]IM[gaim,kopete]) games with wine/winex, web stuff nvu, Window managers (IceWM,Blackbox,fluxbox, enlightenment,others)other stuff I cant think of.
Something to prove?: No.
Wants to help?: Yes.

Exactly why I didn't respond initially ( even though I'm no expert).

You set it up to fail from the start.

Let's see the questions

Quote:

---

... on why I don't think Linux meets my, rather typical needs.

---

( emphasis added ):

1)

Quote:

---

Is it because Linux just isn't capable, ...

---

2)

Quote:

---

... the functionality is so diverse that it is hard to navigate, ...

---

3)

Quote:

---

... or is it because I am just uneducated? (hopefully this will help outline trouble areas for other people trying to consider the switch to linux)

---

( Sorry, missed the fourth and fifth )

If your needs are typical as you say, then linux can meet those needs if you care to, and put in the effort ( like any OS ), depending on the needs.

example: If you just need a desktop ( with no further restrictions ) do a default install of FC4, SUSE, or the like using the default workstation installation. If you need a server, IBID. If you want them a little more secured, you will have to do a custom install, and yes, you will, like any other OS, know what you are doing.

If your needs are specialized ( need certification of the OS as an example ) then the question(s) don't apply, they are not "typical" as such, although they may be in your environment.

Examples of what you meant as "typical" may have helped clarify the questions. And may have helped others in answering your questions.

There is no setting up to fail... the question I am putting forward is "Why am I, an information systems decision maker, under the impression that Linux doesn't meet my needs."

This doesn't mean that Linux doesn't meet my needs, but I am trying to address why I think this. The best way to find out is to ask experts about how they would meet my needs with Linux and then map these answers back to the points I gave.

Now as far as the question of what is or is not "typical" just because most organizations fail to meet these needs doesn't make them any less typical. My buisness requirements are nothing out of the ordinary with regard to the questions I am asking and Linux may well meet all the requirements... again the point is understanding why I am under the impression that it doesn't.

Also, no one thus far has complained about my questions being anything the least bit exotic, so I kindly ask you to reseve your judgement until you actually know what you are judging.

cheers,

catch

Catch, in case you're wondering why I haven't replied yet, it's going on 5:30 AM, I have to be up in 2 and a half hours for work, and between no sleep, homework, and the fact I can't go to bed for at least another 15 hours.... Yea I'm in no way shape or form good for question answering at this time, so I'll send you a reply tommorrow.... Or sooner depending how this goes.

Yet another all nighter, and another all dayer complement for the all nighter. I'm going to probably look like I starred in Night of the Living Dead by around 12 PM.

On my second can of Rip It Energy drink, and 6th Vicodin. Heh, both are needed, mainly because if I'm at the point where I'm getting 4 hours of sleep or less I have to make a decision on whether sleep is actually a good idea (It's hell waking me up as it is) so, I'm trying to stay up for now.

Hell, I don't think I've gotten more than 4hours of sleep in a given 24 hours more than a handful of time over the last 15 years or so... and most of those were when I was sick.

Really it takes quite a long time (5-7 days with no sleep at all) before psychosis sets in, other than that you might have a slight headache and after day two your mouth gets all cottony (kinda mimics amphetamine poisoning) and your joints/eyes a little sore, but nothing too bad.

Stop being such a wuss. :P

cheers,

catch

Lol, dude lol, you forgot that on the third day, you get beligerant (SP?) and start acting like you're either on LSD or REALLY drunk...

hey guys...if i want to install 2 or more linux distros, do i need to install the new distros separately?

Niklas, this isn't the thread for it, but yes. You need to have the two root paths on separate partitions, although you can share the boot device (and /home and /tmp) if you want. Anything else is like waving your hand and asking for someone to shoot you in the head.
.. Actually, if you're *careful*, the only thing you need to have separate is /etc... But it's still a gamble.

catch : your questions are very interesting! I'm very glad that I chose to participate, because you're helping me define knowledge which was only very vague to me before.
And to anyone who's trying to bitch him out.. He is very fair and his wording is carefully neutral :) His questions aren't setups for failures at all.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by catch
So far...

15 out of 50 decided that they were not expert enouh
27 out of 35 have answered the first question
1 out of 27 have answered the second question
0 out of 1 have answered the third question
0 out of 0 have answered the fourth
0 out of 0 have answered th fifth and last question
[...]
cheers,

catch

---

What about now? :)

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by catch
The subject of the paper is an investigative report on why I don't think Linux meets my, rather typical needs.

---

Gonna be a very short paper if you ask me:

Why I don't Think Linux Meets My Rather Typical Needs

I don't think Linux meets my rather typical needs because I don't like it, and my opinions on this are more valid than anyone elses.

oooOOOooo

However, I'll do the questionaire if it helps out.

lol, easy, easy, it's so funny that you're all trolling him out!
He's actually asking for information. He's aware that his lack of knowledge doesn't allow him to make a fair judgement (and he said that before, too!), so he wants information so he can make as fair a comparison as possible.

You haven't posted any questions yet.
My middle name is Linus, and I know
everything.
:cool:

That's because he sends the questions via PM :)

Sorry about the delay with questions four and five... considering that for the first three questions... no two people have given me the same answer, most of these answers conflict with each other, and almost none of the answers fully address my needs (either based on the fact that I've received conflicting information or it just wasn't comprehensive enough)... I am looking at some different ways to word these questions... perhaps even asking all of the questions twice... once with an open answer and once with a multiple choice answer.

Also, I need to figure out some way to strip out answers that rely on using research/ development/ prototype level software. My needs are for a professional environment, if I use Windows or AIX or any other mature system, and it blows up costing millions... "well **** happens" if I use "Super, lucky, happy, mega-Linux kernel module 0.0.3 pre-alpha proto-edition" and it blows up costing millions... I'll prolly get fired. :)

So... at this point I appreciate the first three answers, I'll hopefully have the others sorted in the next day or two.

cheers,

catch

Install a few distributions of Linux and come up with your own conclusions about it.
Why ask for opinions, when you can use your own about it?

Clearly you've missed the point of this thread.

I have used a number of Linux installs... in fact I have a few Linux systems runing at this very moment (RH6.2... never saw a need to update it). However this thread is not about my opinions of Linux, it is about Linux having (or not having) functionality beyond my understanding and how it is that this functionality was beyond my understanding. (Am I just ignorant? Is it poorly documented? Is the situation confusing with too many different solutions?)

So again, please stop questioning my motives... either offer to help, or keep your comments to yourself. Thanks.

cheers,

catch

I have followed this thread since the beginning. At first, by some answers, you would think the questions were asked publicly, some have even answered as if they were and others totaled them again as if they were. Now indications support that the questions are asked privately. Catch, now I'm intrigued, not only by what the questions are, but also if I could answer them technically, honestly and if at all. I'd like the opportunity to see what these questions are and try to provide my view of them.

The reason the questions are asked privately is because unless the responder misses the point so much that I think they must have misrad the question or the specifically ask for feedback, I provide none.

I knew this would turn into a debate if feedback was allowed, and I feel that largely the cause behind the confusion is the vast number of different ways to do some things.

cheers,

catch

PS.

23 out of 68 decided that they were not expert enouh
41 out of 55 have answered the first question
19 out of 41 have answered the second question
7 out of 19 have answered the third question
0 out of 0 have answered the fourth
0 out of 0 have answered the fifth and last question

I'd like to see the questions, I don't know what constitutes an expert. Don't expect me to answer them

Catch; obviously you seem knowledgeable enough.
Since your excuse is that SELinux is still beta, or development, or whatever, and as such is not good enough to be used.. Two things.
1) Linux is under development. Has been ever since creation. You want something more stable, go for a *BSD (OpenBSD is very good for security, and honestly, Linux is cute but has limitations).
2) If you want, I'll set up a SELinux box. Afterwards, you tell me what kind of user access you want (short of root, of course, I'll even give you wheel) and I'll leave it to you to compromise it. I honestly doubt that it can be that easy to overturn.

In fact, if my choice for a secure system weren't a *BSD (OpenBSD for security, but probably FreeBSD for firewall because I like theirs better), I'd likely go for SELinux pretty quickly..
And if you want to know why, it's a psychological detail. It may be developmental, after all, and it may not be "ready for production use", but Windows is what all of the crackers have their eyes on; so a Linux box is not likely to be looked at too much, which removes most of the idiots. When someone does look at the box, then you can only hope that you did your homework correctly..

Hahahahahahahahahahah are you ****ing drunk? Open BSD is more secure than Linux now? Lol, in which way exactly? Because they shut off everything in the system making it damn near un-useable out of the box and slap a secure sticker on it's ass?

Lol what a twerp.

Yup, that's exactly why. OpenBSD is geared towards security, so a lot of things you don't have to worry about as much out of the box.

I mean, come on - take an OpenBSD system out of the box and a Linux system out of the box (any random distribution as long as it's not SELinux+PaX+PIE+SSP...), which one is more secure? There you go.