life sentence with out parole for young offenders.

I run across this article and just wondered what your take on this is. You can find the full story HERE BBC . I

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The US must stop giving young offenders life sentences without the chance of parole, human rights groups have said.
A report by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch said such prisoners - numbering at least 2,225 in the US - must have access to parole processes.

The report says no more than 12 young offenders are serving life without parole in the rest of the world, where the punishment is largely outlawed.
The rights groups spoke to some 375 inmates and used data from many states.

The 157-page report, entitled The Rest of their Lives: Life without Parole for Child Offenders in the United States, was compiled over two years.
It found that 42 US states have laws allowing for offenders under the age of 18 to be sentenced to jail for life with no possibility of parole.

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I am for underaged kids being punished if they commit crimes but i do think that except in extreme case and were the person concerned is close to the legal age when they commit the crime life in prison with out the possiablity of parole is over the top. especially if this qoute is true :

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Across the US, black youth were found to be 10 times more likely to receive life without parole than white youth.
In Pennsylvania, Hispanic youth were found to be ten times more likely to receive the sentence than their white contemporaries.

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Well, what worries me more is that the US justice system seems to be a bit racist. Your second quote makes that clear. But is it because it's a racist system or are black youth really committing 10 times more crimes than the white youth? And if the black youth commit more crimes than white youth, why do they misbehave that badly?

I think the people in the USA have some problems dealing with the high criminal rates all over the country. They try to solve it by demanding more severe punishments but that doesn't help. I think that to solve this problem, the USA should improve it's educational system. Take a look, for example, at the CIA factbook and notice that in the USA only 97% of all people are literate. With a population of 295,734,134 this means 8,872,024 illiterate people. (About half the population size of the Netherlands, and we have a 99% literate score.) Too bad the factbook doesn't provide similar numbers for the whole EU. And this quote from the factbook does also show some other problem within the USA:

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consumer of cocaine shipped from Colombia through Mexico and the Caribbean; consumer of heroin, marijuana, and increasingly methamphetamine from Mexico; consumer of high-quality Southeast Asian heroin; illicit producer of cannabis, marijuana, depressants, stimulants, hallucinogens, and methamphetamine; money-laundering center

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But this just shows the huge problem in the USA. Too many people who lack a proper education and thus have lots of trouble in our modern society where literacy is a requirement. And a huge consumption of all kinds of drugs to keep the people 'happy'. A problem that doesn't get solved by all those huge punishments anyway, because it hasn't stopped anyone yet.

I think most of the problem comes from the idea of poverty and how being poor is percieved in america. Probably the most important factor decideing the jail term is how the person is represented. I am sure that a black kid from a middle class family would get a better trail and sentence than a black kid from a poorer family. There is a belief in the United States that if you want you can make something of yourself and those who are poor are poor because they are much happier living off the state than getting a real job.

It depends on what kind of crime they have committed.
If they have only smoked a little dope, that's one thing,
but if the authorities fail to punish brutal rapes and murders,
they are as guilty as the perpetrators because they have
encouraged more crime by their failure to enforce the law.

But I agree. Life without parole is inhumane for anyone.
Hanging is more merciful, and I highly recommend it as
an alternative.
:cool:

Then there's the problem of some lawyers Yawn , seriously though I don't think poverty is the crutch a lot of people like to use, sure it's easy to blame society because of a certain segment being down due to unemployment or disabilities and therefore they go running around breaking the law.
I have constantly read in the news where young Joey and his pals were arrested the other night vandalising or robbing a corner store, then you read on and you find out that both parents work, bringing in approx 6 figures a year in salary combined and while young Joey and pals were out doing mischief , the parents had gone to the cottage for the weekend and handed the kids the keys to the house, I am talking 16, 17 and 18yr olds and possibly younger.

One of the biggest problems around here is "Joyriding, teens ripping off cars to do the race thing, and then when the cops give chase, go barrelling through town, and whoops the next thing you know they are responsible for the death of a women in her 50's who leaves a husband and two children behind, and then when these kids are hauled into the pansy waisted court syustem here in Canada, they try to determine whether or not because of their age and severity of the case whether or not to try them as adults.

Give me a break :mad: you do the crime you do the time.

I will agree to a point that there seems to be a lot of racial profiling going on throughout North America, I think what the problem is, is the media has finely caught on to covering a lot of what goes on in the courts (Thanks to OJ) and the cities and towns are keeping better stats.So a lot of this is out in the open and is spread across the airwaves, ala http://truedemocracy.net/td2_4/03-bolger.html or how about these Amber Alerts, why couldn't these be in place 20yrs ago, how many children have been kidnapped,abused,killed,because of apathy.

During Dickens time, a child stealing bread was hanged, didn't matter what age, and those were probably truly destitute people who stole food to survive.

Bottom line if you are old enough to understand the consequences of your actions, then however long the jail time is on the books (always up to the judge to decide based upon guidelines) then that is what they should serve, why should they be allowed to obtain a second chance at life when the victim only had one and they took it away. Sorry but IMO they commit the crime of murder and they can rot.

TIs not a racists thing its a calss thing. Unfortunitly a lot of the poor in this country are black...But if you look at the numbers poor white/black go to jail mopre often and for longer sentances then the wealthy...its an issue of who has access to good lawyers and who has to rely on the PD's who are understaffed and overworked.

Dalek,
The point I am making is not that the fact they are from somebroken up family living in a ghetto should excuse them from the consequences of their crime it is more there is a problem of social or wealth profiling also. Your little joey whose parents can afford to pay for a good lawer will get a lower jail sentence than little joey who comes from a poorer background. For me being from a poor or black family shouldn't mean that you get heavier jail sentences.
I've made my opions on the jail system that exists today clear in many other posts but my basic belief is that hard labour should be brought back. You commit a crime you should pay for it. The same crime should get the same sentence.

edit : Dalek I didn't see your link first but that is disturbing. The evidance points to one of them committing the murder. That one admits and pleads guilty. He is released after 8 years. The other one for whom apperently there is little evidance of him committing murder gets sentenced to death. Wierd. Added to the fact he is getting either released or retried because his lawer kept falling asleep just shows how ridiculous the system can be.

One of the most important reasons for racism in the courts today
is that the authorities insist on giving judges the power to give
widely different punishments for the same crime. This idea was
introduced as a so-called reform, but has caused nothing but
injustice. If you asked prison inmates what is their biggest
complaint against the system, this is it.

Judges are not gods. they can't know your "inner self", so they
cannot craft a punishment that is uniquely suited to you.
It would be best to return to the day when the sentence was
written into the law. You steal a car, that's two years;
steal a fire truck, five years. etc.

If a guy knows ahead of time what the punishment is, he can rationally decide if it's
worth the risk to steal that carton of smokes, or shoot a rival rapper.
As it stands now, some people get heinous sentences for minor ****
while others get probation for horrible murders.
Giving judges wide "discretion" was supposed to be a "liberal"
reform. The results are anything but liberal.
:cool:

Quote:

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Originally posted here by MURACU
Dalek,
The point I am making is not that the fact they are from somebroken up family living in a ghetto should excuse them from the consequences of their crime it is more there is a problem of social or wealth profiling also. Your little joey whose parents can afford to pay for a good lawer will get a lower jail sentence than little joey who comes from a poorer background. For me being from a poor or black family shouldn't mean that you get heavier jail sentences.

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Because Joey actually has parents...... maybe Joey’s only a first offender...... maybe having actually paid for court fees and lawyer’s fees shows that your parents actually do care and might turn you around. Ted on the other hand, his parents don't give a ****, the court sees this and decides the gov should parent him now through forced "time out" in a corner. It's all about how you were raised, and the fact of the matter is in our ghettos the majority aren't really raised just produced.

Poverty area= high crime/ high drug abuse............ forgotten kids more likely to have committed numerous crimes before they were caught for the first.


Across town different story percentages drop.

I don't think it is race, class or economic status so much as severity. Juveniles in this country can be tried as adults based on the severity and nature of the crime committed. This is decided prior to prosecution. Once that decision is made, the perp is no longer protected by juvenile status. Granted, life without the possiblity of parole seems severe. So was the crime, mostly likely. Keep in mind that the sentence is issued by a judge after a public trial, and the judge must abide by sentencing standards of the state. There must be compelling reasons to apply that level of sentence. It isn't arbitrary in any way.

'Course, I would invite you to spend a few minutes alone in a locked room with one of those inmates. I think your opinion of the fitness of the punishment would change very quickly.

Crime is abundant across racial and economic lines...we keep focusing on lower class crime because it's steriotypically the societal imposed crime...

the fact is rich people do not need to break into your house when you're on vacation...rich people commit other types of crimes...

some of these crimes are legal...or...acceptable...and some aren't...

we focus on lower class crime because those crimes are more easily distinguished.

nevertheless...I don't see a difference.

Eg ;)

Ok cut them a break, fees and all. Let them go, they'll be back in a few days if not hours.
Why does anyone need to intrude in anothers house?

The poor: Hmmmm why are they poor for so many generations?

Story of Grandma and Grandpa:

Daddy ran out on mama because he was a piece of **** to begin with......oh, and how these women gravitate to those steamy piles of **** so quick. He made five kids and left mama working at McDonalds on minimum wage. Who looks after those kids during the 9-5, who parents them? Uncle Sam? Mama gets her weakly check on friday and spends it on an ounce of **** hay from Mexico. Wow I can see where this one is going. Kids manage to grow up.

Daughters gravitate to more piles of ****. This time 5 kids out of wedlock by 4 different piles of ****. Back to McDonalds to take over moms old position. Wow this is really starting to snowball here...............................At the end of the day WE PAY for this obnoxious activity. We pay through double taxation for a cycle of **** spinning out of control.


These are the kids we're talking about. Kids who come from this cycle, fatherless kids with no guidance or hope. All because daddy should've been locked up long before he made them. The parasites of society. Wow I give you an applause mama for working at your teenager job. But let's have a look at those W2's. Wow you practically made peanuts and since you have so many kids through your ignorance you practically wont pay anything in taxes besides the beer you buy at the corner store. And god just shut your loquacious mouths in public and on TV, that's why you didn't learn anything in school to begin with. You were probably running that loud mouth all through school condemning the kids who were trying to make it out and get away from your local dinge.

What are they hoping for? It's like the lotto to them.....maybe baby five will be a Nascar driver or a NBA player.

What will the next generation be like?

Forced labor.....breaking big rock into little rock. Chain gangs on the interstate. I want to see this.

All on my money.

Hi Imitation,

OK...let's solve poverty and maybe the crime statistics will go down a bit and the tax payers will save money on housing two-bit criminals in over-crowded prisons...

poverty is not really a huge issue...a complicated issue...but very solvable...

remove quotas on farmers who are penalized for producing more than the quota allows...presumably these quotas are in place to keep prices from altering the economic landscape...to keep prices even...and high...removing these quotas will allow farmers to employ more people, lower prices, and reduce the expense they incur when they experience a bad year...

change the bankruptcy laws to allow for instant liquidation...no more chapter 11...no bail-out packages...if they can't keep their business afloat let it sink...

refuse all incentive packages that do not include a dollar ratio to new employees...

limit prisons to violent crimes only...non-violent offenders being placed in half-way houses on work release programs...

etc...

there are a thousand ways to save money so it can be utilized to create jobs...lower prices...and create an improved economy...

so...why don't they? Because it would not benefit the wealthy to make these changes...it would only benefit the unemployed.

Eg ;)

What a touchstone - alleviating poverty how?

Welfare? Ok, so now you have those same (now former) minimum wage MacDonald's moms sitting at home squeezing out more kids so their check will be bigger.

Food Stamps? Ooops - wrong area to hit me on, I work in retail, remember? I can always tell foodstamp award night because of the overabundance of people coming into my store buying way overpriced junk food. Amazing thing that - they can buy it cheaper at the grocery store down the street, but yet they come to my place and spend upwards of $100 of (your if you were American) tax dollars. When the food stamp funds start running short or when the time limit runs out (right before the next award night) they come charging into my store to spend up every last cent they have left because if they don't, the dollars go back into the fund and get redistributed. Sounds like they're trying to get a leg up here, doesn't it? Hmm. I won't even touch on the 'rental' of one's fully-charged foodstamp card and pin number for 50 cents cash on the foodstamp dollar so that these verysame people can buy their (as so eloquently put earlier) Mexican **** hay, or their liquor, or their beer.

Why are there poor in America? Because those who are poor choose to be that way. They refuse to get and keep jobs. They want to sit around all day and enjoy the free things that the land of plenty provides them. They have ZERO incentive to get off the welfare rolls and become productive members of society, because then THEIR tax dollars would pay for all their friends who're still drawing that monthly check.

I have to go with Rusty on this one - we need to do away with welfare entirely. A better motto should be 'Get a Job or Starve.'

On prisoners and racism - again, Rusty's right in his analogy. The reason we have so many African-American prisoners is because of the way they were raised. Their own culture does it to them. If you don't believe me, go spend some time in the ghetto - I see it on a daily basis. The ghetto generates predators - these people prey on each other, on us, and on anyone who they think they can get something out of. They're always on the lookout for a new way to scam, steal, or beg money or goods out of someone. This won't change quickly - in fact, it worsens with each new generation.

I, for one, would VERY much like to see forced labor - chain gangs and making little rocks from big rocks seems to be just the ticket, most especially for those who were found guilty of such heinous crimes that warranted life without parole. Maybe after a year or 30 out in the 100+degree Texas sun using a 'yo-yo' to cut the weeds alongside a highway a prisoner might realize that this isn't a free ride, nor a lifestyle they wish to return to. I think we should all take a lesson from Maricopa County, Arizona - most of the prisoners there (other than the extreme hard-cases) live in "Tent City" - freezing at night and baking all day. They perform chain-labor or work their own farm growing their own produce for consumption and sale. They eat on less than 80 cents a day per prisoner (green bologna sandwiches).

All that to say - maybe if we made being in Prison an actual Punishment it might serve its purpose better. Rehab isn't working, full on incarceration isn't working, we need to do something.

Egaladeist: I wasn't saying that the poor comit more crimes then the wealthy, jsut that the wealthy can afford a dedicated lawyer. Therfore the wealthy get found guilty less often and serve less savere sentances.

Hi bballad,

My comments weren't directed at anyone in particular...they were just thrown out there...you'll notice that if there's no name attached, eg ' Hi ______' then they're just comments.

Hi l3lacklce,

I agree with major reform..including welfare reform...like I said there are literally thousands of avenues we could take to eliminate poverty...( I was not being sarcastic ).

As for living in a ' black ' neighborhood...I have...and I've addressed that before...and it was during the riots and it was in the ' heart of a poor neighborhood ' and not in some suburbia or outskirts...and I disagree with your impression of black neighborhoods and the way you imagine they are being raised or the cause of the problems.

I am tired of hearing people whine too about how momma didn't hug them and so they turned to a life of crime...but I think it's more complicated than that.

Eg ;)

It isn't that momma didn't hug 'em Eggman - it's that she wasn't there to bitchslap 'em when they needed it, or else she didn't care enough to do it.

Hi l3lacklce,

Definitely! :D

Eg ;)

May I suggest we relocate everyone from Prince Edward Island, hire Snake Pliskin (Warden), and to save money on building a fence around the whole island, just stock the local waters with Great Whites, and feed them a few Anne's every now and then to get them miserable.

Then airdrop all of the con's, murderer's, rapists,child molesters,Enron CEO's, and all of the rest of the garbage, right in the middle, throw them a bag of vegatable seeds, a few sheep (due respect to all Scotsmen), maybe a couple of Bulls (be funny watching them try to milk them!).Then let them fend for themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Island would be a reasonable option as well. ;)

Hi dalek,

Seeing as how you brought it up...I did at one time suggest Baffin Island...no fences needed, they're not going to walk very far in shorts and tee-shirts through the bitter cold and roaming polar bears...you can periodically air-drop supplies...no guards, no cells, just instructions on building an igloo and a fishing pole. :D

Eg ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted here by Egaladeist
Hi Imitation,

OK...let's solve poverty and maybe the crime statistics will go down a bit and the tax payers will save money on housing two-bit criminals in over-crowded prisons...


Eg ;)

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If they're in jail they can't make the babies we have to pay for.

Give me a little while to think on this and I'll be roiling like hulk. You know he's usually calm and polite but when you piss him off he goes on a tear. I'll be back with some more choice views on why a multitude of offspring without the wherewithal is a bad thing for any country. Look at Africa, Mexico, Middle East.

Maricopa County.... I saw that warden he was a hardass...... making the inmates wear everything pink, pink underwear, pink towel,etc...etc...

Quote:

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Originally posted here by !mitationRust
If they're in jail they can't make the babies we have to pay for.

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Interesting concept. Still, there is a bit of truth in this. Poor people will always have problems buying anticonception so they choose the cheapest alternatives possible. Yet they don't want to abstinate either. Or maybe they'll try but sex tends to be addictive. :D To make things worse, the US government is putting more pressure on people to abstinate, knowing well that many people will soon cave in to their desires. They're also trying to provide less information about anticonception tools because of pressure from many religious organisations in the USA. And of course they're alsy trying to ban abortions...

So what happens? People of average wealth or more can buy anticonceptions and ***** around all day because they can afford safe sex. They can also afford an abortion or morning-after pill if required. Poorer people can't and soon the poor women will end up with a bun in the oven that they can't even afford to maintain themselves. And if they're lucky, the father will stay with them to take his part in the childcare but then again in many occasions the father just runs away quite fast. (Or he's in prison, or became a victim of a gang-war.)

What would help is lowering the prices of anticonception a bit and providing a lot more education about them, especially to young teens and perhaps even preteens. Fact is, humans start to become sexually active at a very young age these days. It's nothing special when a 13 year old girl gets pregnant these days anymore. Reminds me of an incident in Belgium that made the headlines recently. A 13 year old girl became pregnant of het 16 year old boyfriend. And once she realised she was pregnant, she did everything possible to hide her pregnancy. Then one day she gave birth to a boy, about two months premature, and just didn't know what to do with the baby so she threw the baby out of the window. (Article here in Dutch. Hope you can understand Dutch...) So think about that... Kids having sex with other kids... And if you don't educate them about how to act in these circumstances, you'll get these dramatic events.

Also consider this... When you start to provide sex education to teens, you've already started those lessons too late these days. It should start much sooner.

Quote:

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Originally posted here by Katja


What would help is lowering the prices of anticonception

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We desperately give it out for free now.....I'll reply later on the rest. Pills, rubbers, VooDoo, etc...

Quote:

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Reminds me of an incident in Belgium that made the headlines recently. A 13 year old girl became pregnant of het 16 year old boyfriend. And once she realised she was pregnant, she did everything possible to hide her pregnancy. Then one day she gave birth to a boy, about two months premature, and just didn't know what to do with the baby so she threw the baby out of the window.

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If the Dutch (Belgians, Germans and French) don't start having more babies,
The Netherlands will soon become an Islamic country. It's a sign of national
sickness that they consider it a personal catastrophe to get pregnant. Will there
be a next generation of workers to pay the taxes to support your generous
social policies?
:cool:

RoadClosed's government. "Johny I know when you were 14 you knew that guns hurt people. There is no false pretense you can come up with. You weren't just playing with the gun when you waited for that little girl to walk home from school. You waited for her and pulled the trigger. She actually smiled at you before she realized ... registered the flash. See this gun johny, that Bob is pointing at you. This is what she saw, from her perspective. Smile Johnny...."

Significantly more youth are tried as adults in the adult criminal court today as a result of either Direct File/Prosecutorial Discretion or Statutory Exclusion. Youth tried in the adult criminal court face the same penalties as adults, including the death penalty or life without parole.


Most determinations to prosecute juveniles as adults were not made by judges (15%), but instead by prosecutors or legislatures (85%).

Overall, 82% of youth charged in adult courts were minority youth.

Minority youth were disproportionately charged in adult court. For example, in Jefferson County, Alabama, African American youth accounted for approximately 3 out of 10 felony arrests, but represented 8 out of 10 felony cases filed in criminal court.


White youth are twice as likely as African-American youth to be represented by private counsel. Youth who are represented by private attorneys were less likely to be convicted and more likely to be transferred back to juvenile court.

African-American (43%) and Latino (37%) youth were more likely than White youth (26%) to receive a sentence of incarceration (as opposed to a split sentence or probation).

and as go for birthcontrol it's free no excuse
:)

BTW been doing alot of research on the Juvienile laws

Hey, cdkj! Nice work!

Yeah, the research is showing. Now, what do we do with the information? We should leverage that information to help solve the root problems, not provide fringe radicals more excuses to kill cops. I know, where the hell did that come from ...

BTW, cdkj, what can I do to change your mood?!?!?!?!?!?!

;)