Dettux, Linux From Hell

Okay, so, after somebody (I forget. Gore, maybe?) mentioned Dettux in a thread about Gentoo, I decided to give it a go.
http://www.dettus.net/dettuxx/

First of all, vmware (or, I guess, a VM of your choice) helps because you don't actually need to use 8 floppies; you can virtually switch 'em around. So, I got the ... Let's say "basic distribution" installed. That's after the eight floppies.
I had to fight to get LILO to work, but that's probably due to my lack of knowledge of LILO (I can recopy files later if needed by someone here). My drive looks like this:

/dev/hda1 : /boot (30 megs or so)
/dev/hda2 : swap (big woop, it's not being used, heh)
/dev/hda3 : / (the rest, 4 gigs or so)

I have unsuccessfully tried to connect to the outside world, although I have been able to connect to the intranet (caveat emptor).
Thankfully, I guess, as I use Gentoo, I have a lot of source tarballs.
Unfortunately, the last update for Dettux was in 2002 or so, and as you are all aware, Linux moves fast. So, what I have on my machine just doesn't compile! And so, started the hunt for older stuff, in an attempt to, eventually, move to an up-to-date distribution...

Well, this is what I have compiled so far, in that order.

Aaaand at this point I'm kinda stuck, looking for an old enough version of coreutils that it'll compile. Oldest I have is 5.0 ... (right after gettext. I'm moving forward though)

slang-1.4.9
nasm-0.98.39
m4-1.4
autoconf-2.50
gawk-3.0.4
readline-4.1
libtool-1.3.5
gettext-0.10.40
ncurses-1.9.9e



So, I propose that this thread be a work-thread, where everyone who is toying with Dettux participate and help each other in figuring it out. ... Anybody interested, or am I alone in this foray into masochism?

You're not in Gentoo land anymore wuss.

Found something else, another step backwards :
Previously these utilities were offered as three individual sets of GNU utilities, fileutils, shellutils, and textutils. Those three have been combined into a single set of utilities called the coreutils.

And you're right, I'm not in Gentoo land. Duh. What are you saying, no one's gonna help? Have you even installed Dettux? Do you have a working Dettux distribution? Do you *use it* ? What exactly is your point? Do you have particular interests in the distribution remaining obscure and no walkthrough being offered?
Hey, I have tremendous respect for you, but until you walk this walk, shut up, please.

And to think I was going to help you *Sigh*.... Anyway, to help a bit anyway, The FTP for Gnu and Tux may have some of the software you're asking about ;)

The GNU ftp is where I've been fishing for the past few days. I was unaware of the other one, though. Thanks.

I do what I can ;) I may have some more let me check.

Sweet. I'd give you antipoints but I need to spread them around, apparently.. I really need to become more active on the forums.

[edit : okay, we can add ncurses-1.9.9e to the list...]
ftp://ftp.tux.org/people/macgyver/linux/ncurses/
INSTALLATION:

Assuming that the binary tar file is in /, execute the following as root:

cd /
rm -f /usr/include/ncurses
rm -f /usr/include/ncurses.h /usr/include/curses.h
rm -f /usr/lib/libcurses* /usr/lib/libmenu* /usr/lib/libpanel*
rm -f /usr/lib/libncurses* /lib/libncurses*
rm -f /usr/lib/libform*
rm -rf /usr/lib/terminfo
tar xvfz ncurses-1.9.9e.bin.tar.gz
ldconfig

Don't worry about APs.

going to check my FTP stuff in a bit to see if I have more.

A word of warning not to install ncurses-1.99 for now (or at least not to follow the full instructions and remove the libcurses and libncurses), because I killed libncurses.so.4 and so I'm left without ftp and less, whoo-hoo!

The list of installed software now has this added to the end of it (blame it on my impossibility to edit a message 1440+ minutes after posting!):

autoconf-2.52
yacc-1.9.1
textutils-2.0
bison-1.30
patch-2.5.9
grep-2.5.1
which-2.16
wget 1.9.1
sed-4.1.4

Okay, so with that, it's a compilation of gcc-2.95.3 and textutils-2.0 so I'm done with the doc! hah.. Now I'm on my own. Anything added after textutils has been edited to be added inside this post while I can. :)

Soon as I get the hang of this system I'll edit it for you.

And we can add:

groff-1.19.1
a2ps-4.13
bzip2-1.0.3
readline-5.0

Now I'm pretty much at a loss, because near as I can figure, I need to compile a kernel (a lot of the stuff I'm trying to build requires autoconf.h ) and the linux 2.0.xx that I have isn't working. The linux-2.6.14 laughs at me too.. So I'm off trying to find what kernel came out about the time that Dettux was last worked on.

Sorry to bump, but this is, I think, an important breakthrough :)

readline-5.0
ncurses-5.4 + patch from 2005 08 27
perl-5.6.1

As you can tell, I am very scatter-brained, but I'm moving forward! Giant steps!

autoconf-2.53
autoconf-2.54
autoconf-2.57
autoconf-2.59
automake-1.5

export TERM=getty
ncurses-5.5

linux-2.4.10 --> make config -->autoconf.h !!
make-3.80
linux-2.6.12 --> make menuconfig --> autoconf.h !
coreutils-5.0 !!

nano-1.3.7 (FINALLY! I don't like JOE so much)
netkit-ftp-0.17
gzip-1.3.5
shadow-4.0.7

touch /etc/group
groupadd root
attr-2.4.24

zlib-1.2.3
file-4.16
binutils-2.16.1 (WOO HOO!)
gettext-0.14.5
bison-2.1
coreutils-5.3.0
bash-3.0
bzip2-1.0.3

But I can't seem to get a gcc... Working on it though!

gcc-3.0 (BOOYAH!)
--> --enable-languages=c,c++ --enable-threads=posix --enable-bootstrap=lean
And a few modifications to code when errors arose.
http://www.mail-archive.com/gcc@gcc..../msg07677.html
From here I'm pretty sure that compiling a more recent GCC is going to be easy, as will be installing a recent glibc (2.3.5).
Either way, I'll let you all know... :)

So what is the difference between this and LFS (Linux from Scratch)?

Let's see, for starters, with LFS, you usually start with a fully functional system, from which you create an independent system (through a LiveCD for instance). Also, LFS has real documentation, and they tell you which software (and which version!) to download, and which options to use to configure and compile it...
With this one, well, it's kinda like dropping you off in the jungle with a bowie knife and telling you "Well, you've seen Rambo, right?"

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Let's see, for starters, with LFS, you usually start with a fully functional system, from which you create an independent system (through a LiveCD for instance).

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LFS does start with a full system unless you use the livecd, but you only build a bare-bones, unusable system for LFS. Compilers and a few extras. Why? Because it's an unneeded hassel to copy items you already know the system needs to floppy disks just to compile.

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Also, LFS has real documentation, and they tell you which software (and which version!) to download, and which options to use to configure and compile it...

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Real documentation, explainations, examples, and configuration suggestions are bad? You can sit there and peck at dettux all you want but in the end all you are going to learn is what breaks and what doesnt. You might not learn why it breaks. You might not even care and just go searching for a new version instead.

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With this one, well, it's kinda like dropping you off in the jungle with a bowie knife and telling you "Well, you've seen Rambo, right?"

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Just doesn't seem fun to me. You don't learn anything other than through trial and error what packages are needed due to the lack of documentation. You have no idea of what you are possibly missing that you could be learning and attempting because of lack of documentation and explainations. In the end, you will be running a system that is peiced together by software you may or may not understand due to merely meeting the requirements for installation. And even then, dettux won't take the time to explain the differences in init systems, ideas for implimentation, and resources avaliable for modification and their uses.

It's great you want this 'rambo' distro. But to me it feels as if the only thing to be learned is that depedency checking is a peice of cake and mounting a floppy drive is a powerful command.

Edit: My harshness stems from the fact that, to me, dettux is yet -another- linux distrubution that simply mirrors the way other operations systems already run, but with minor modifications to it's starting point of installation. The main distributions (such as slackware, debian, rock) we have are already lacking the appropriate amount of coders, testers, and supporters. Why not at least plop into a dsitribution that would not only teach you linux beyond depedency checking but also benefit back to the linux community as a whole?

guardian, i take it by the way your bashing Detu[xX] is that you have successfully installed it and are one of the 14 people that have got it running correctly..?

If so got any screenshots of what it looks like.?

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If so got any screenshots of what it looks like.?

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Like a bash prompt? Or the GUI? How would a screenshot prove I've installed Detu, f2b?

Read my above edit why I'm annoyed with this distribution. I have little patience for something that goes out of its way to be difficult for the linux community. Sure, it's a badge of honor to have it completed. And then what? Again, you only come out with the ability to say "I know how to check deps!"

Let me end all of the possible-flame posts by saying, I don't think dettux is anything other than a roadblock. But I nonetheless do wish you the best possible experience and time while playing with it.

Psst, I've now gone somewhat further!
guardian alpha: I don't see your problem. I suggest you go play progress quest (www.progressquest.com) for a little bit (I don't think it works under WINE), and then come back when you understand and appreciate the joke.
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gcc-3.3.4 (same deal as gcc-3.0)

(you can start compiling glibc-2.3.5 about now, don't forget the linuxthread add-on!...)

(edit /etc/group to add group tty)
util-linux-2.12q
findutils-4.2.25
pciutils-2.2.0
rsync-2.6.6

pkg-config-0.19 (had to --disable-threads, YMMV)

libintil:gettext
(I needed LFS doc for this!)
cd gettext
cd gettext-runtime
./configure
make -C intl/
make -C intl/ install
----but didn't solve my libintl_gettext when configuring kernel....

automake-1.4-p6
slocate-2.7
sysfsutils-1.3.0
xinetd-2.3.13

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I suggest you go play progress quest (www.progressquest.com) for a little bit (I don't think it works under WINE), and then come back when you understand and appreciate the joke.

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Starting a system by taking binary packages from one system for dettux to use is progress? The initial point is all about copying over the tarballs, and thus again going out of it's way to be difficult where other distro's have ignored the setback of that aspect by including coreutils.

Dep checking, dep checking. It's already been done.

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Like a bash prompt? Or the GUI? How would a screenshot prove I've installed Detu, f2b?

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Well both would be nice. i've been wondering what it looks like once it's all configured..

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I have little patience for something that goes out of its way to be difficult for the linux community.

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Then why go out of your way to bash it? You don't like it fine, then don't participate in the thread if all you are going to do is bash it.. ;)
You want to participate then post something useful or helpful.. That's what this thread is here for... ;)

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Sure, it's a badge of honor to have it completed. And then what? Again, you only come out with the ability to say "I know how to check deps!"

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Still if you only come out of it learnt how to check dependicies, that's still something learnt then nothing learnt at all...

cheers

Obviously guardian alpha didn't go play progress quest :-(
It's a shame. Front2back, I'm sure you would at least enjoy it...

front2back : once it's all configured, it looks just the way you want it to. Heck, if I hadn't messed up somewhere, I'd have libintl_gettext and I'd be able to configure my kernel again. I forget which option I have to check for the vmware ethernet card so I'm networkless right now :) ... It's a simple distro, but in the end it's just like Gentoo: you install what you want to install. I'm still going strong with a CLI right now, but I have bash-3.0 now, the summum of quality! *laugh* You can make it look just the way you want to.. If I do get X.org running on this, I'll probably go with windowmaker :)

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Well both would be nice. i've been wondering what it looks like once it's all configured..

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Desktop interface is seperate from the operating system. Gnome and fluxbox will still look like gnome and flux box ;)

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Then why go out of your way to bash it? You don't like it fine, then don't participate in the thread if all you are going to do is bash it.. ;)

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Because it's hard enough encouraging the linux community to keep proper documentation, but when dettux is looked at as a 'difficult' distro due to it's lack of documentation it simply boggles my mind. Allow me to explain:

Dettux: "Build a VCR. You can use parts from other VCRs if you want."

Rock/Gentoo/LFS: "Build a VCR. Here is the documentation for explainations, definitions, suggestions, insights into configuration reading, and a crash course in saftey for electronics. Use parts from other VCRs or build your own from scratch. Don't know how to buil from scratch? Here is a crash course in metalworking.".

See the difference bud? One is going out of it's way, again, to be time consuming. Easiest way to research for dettux is google, right? So why would researching be looked highly upon if the documentation that is already needed is put together into a singular area that eliminates the tediuous search but still shows the explaination of the process in-depth?

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You want to participate then post something useful or helpful.. That's what this thread is here for... ;)

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Useful? I can do that.


Don't copy tarballs from your gentoo CD. It defeats the entire purpose since you now have a mixed bag of binaries preconfigured for specific init-style usage. IF you gank sourcetarballs, play it safe versus fast. A BSD/gentoo source may or may not have additional 3rd-party hacks (like dropline) that can bring you errors down the road that you were never expecting. Stick to source from the origonal releases.

guardian alpha, you realize that Gentoo is a meta-distro, right? It compiles everything from source... So why exactly does it defeat the purpose to use the source repository I've built up over a year (because I don't clean them out, like most people do) ?

And actually, your analogy is slightly incorrect.
Rock/Gentoo/LFS would tell you : here is a crash course in hardware processor building. Build a processor.
Dettux : Build a processor. Here's an abacus.

You see, Dettux "ships" with files that are four years old or more. Make is 3.77, you don't have coreutils (doc says to install textutils!), gcc is 2.95 (r2 or r3? I forget), binutils are ... hahahahaha! ...
It's a distro from hell because you have to build it with tools from that day and then move towards today. It's an annoying piece of crap because not only do you have to learn dependencies, you have to learn *which* packages you need, and *what* options you need on each, and *how* to configure them once they're installed.

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It's an annoying piece of crap because not only do you have to learn dependencies, you have to learn *which* packages you need, and *what* options you need on each, and *how* to configure them once they're installed.

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So you have to read the documentation? Sounds exactally like how I remember dettux. Read the documentation on required libs and the rest was a peice of cake.

And using the objects they shipped with never worked for me. It was a waste of time to use buggy software on purpose, so I rolled newer packages of the included tgz's so that I wouldn't have to worry about my errors belonging not to my lack of knowledge, but the stubborness of using files that I already knew wouldn't work without an update.

Save yourself the stubborness. Start with updated files versus older, buggy, useless files that you are going to try and update in the first place.

Thanks for the advice, but you're something like a week late :)
In case you haven't noticed, I've made some tremendous movement forward (at least, I like to think so).
The question remains : what are the required libs? That's what I have to figure out. I updated things as I found that they were outdated; and I was very, very happy when I got binutils and coreutils to compile ;-)
Reading the documentation is the same across all software, whether it's an OS, a userland tool, or a luser (yeah, they're software. Buggy software, but software nonethless).
Maybe I have outdone you, then, since I have been using the tools they gave me to make new tools. *shrug* That's not the issue, though. The issue is this :
When I go to /usr/src/linux (a symlink to /usr/src/linux-2.6.12) and I type make menuconfig, I get a lot of undefined references to libintl_gettext.

Any idea how to solve it?

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When I go to /usr/src/linux (a symlink to /usr/src/linux-2.6.12) and I type make menuconfig, I get a lot of undefined references to libintl_gettext.

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That's an issue with your glibc headers. in specific reference to gettext. Do you have the most recent glibc along with the most recent headers according to your kernel? Did you modify the origonals? Are you using a 3rd-party tgz or the origonal?

It could be an old glibc version, too old, for your kernel (2.6 family). Try updating your glibc if you have the origonal source or try the older 2.4 family kernel. Give the kernel documentation a read to check the dep requirements of the 2.6 family.

"most recent" ?
the glibc headers ship with glibc, yes? I installed glibc-2.3.5 on the machine less than an hour ago.
Did I modify the original headers? No. I got the tarball from my gentoo machine, and same goes for the linuxthreads add-on. I'm pretty sure that's not modified though; it's as is. Gentoo leaves any patches/modifications it makes as ... patches.

Well, your linker can not find the symbols in the gettext library, so make sure you are linking to it with the proper -l options.

example: gcc -o smile smile.c -lintl

Your kernel makefile should automagically include this though, so it has to be an issue with the glib headers or the gettext links.

Let's narrow this down. Is it just your kernel or is it other compilations too?

Wait.. Hang on.
glibc says it's a stupid idea to install it to /usr/local so I installed to /usr/lib .. I need to use libtool or libtoolize now to tell the OS that it has to look in there, right?

Other compilations work fine.

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glibc says it's a stupid idea to install it to /usr/local so I installed to /usr/lib .. I need to use libtool or libtoolize now to tell the OS that it has to look in there, right?

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Correct :) And yes, all system libs should go in /usr/lib as /usr/local is set for your programs beyond the base installation itself (gaim, gimp, etc).

The kernel in specific looks for the /usr/lib due to, well let's be honest, that part of the operating system normally already existing. Replacement of it into /usr/lib -should- solve your problem.

You guys don't let this turn into a flame war, K? I don't mind discussions but keep it above the belt. And Trevoke that is a good friend of mine so just make sure to treat him with respect as he usually treats others with the same.

No worries Gore. I sent him a PM letting him know that I'm not upset with him but moreso reflective of how the dettux development team is to suggestions and even the idea of a forum. The community itself seemed counter-acting to the sharing of information because of the refusal the development team has of proper documentation.

He replied back letting me know that the distro was meant as a joke in which it was supposed to be hard for the sheer fun of it. Heh.. Clears up a bit for me as I was taking this distro as seriously as LFS. If it is a for-fun distro then that's fine. As you can see, we are now BFFs and are working to solve his glibc.

Good. I tried to explain yesterday for you but I was busy as crap and had trouble putting the words together properly. It's meant to be hard for fun like he said. And that reminds me I forgot to grab those FTP links for him.... I'll get to that in a sec.

Okay, I'm restarting a compilation of glibc.

The FAQ had the answer : if I want to install this version of glibc as the default version, I have to use --prefix=/usr and everything will go in the right place.
So... I'll keep you all posted!

****. I think I broke it.

When typing 'make', 'nano', 'locate', ...
/lib/ld-linux.so.2: version 'GLIBC_2.1.1' not found (required by /usr/local/lib/libc.so.6).

Time to research.

Does the file /lib/ld-linux.so.2 point to a valid file (example: /usr/lib/ld-2.3.1.so), because note where glibc is still attempting to point all lib files at... /usr/local/lib according to the error message. Also, have you unlinked the old points to /usr/local/lib/ to refocus onto /usr/lib? A quick and dirty hack would be to eliminate gcc and glibc and do a complete recompiling of both to refresh the soft and hard links of your system. Of course.. that's iffy since dettux may or may not follow that standardization since it is not implimented.. per say.

glibc changes and upgrades are scarier than kernel errors :(