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Hey Hey,
None of this applies to me but it's the article title... I figure this is the best place as comments for this may get out of hand regarding it... Any comments.... Is that actually all that was in place in New Orleans???
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0112-15.htm
Peace,
HT
Hey Hey,
None of this applies to me but it's the article title... I figure this is the best place as comments for this may get out of hand regarding it... Any comments.... Is that actually all that was in place in New Orleans???
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0112-15.htm
Peace,
HT
Well the pictures are pretty self-explanatory. However, having been in NOLA back in 1988.......They were in pretty good shape the 17 years ago:) They were much larger than those depicted, those could be secondaries or something. But the bottom line is that they did fail as predicted. The Mayor, the County and the State should hang. It's their baby and they had the funds or least could have done more rather than just point the finger of scorn towards Washington.
cheers
Well the pictures are pretty self-explanatory. However, having been in NOLA back in 1988.......They were in pretty good shape the 17 years ago:) They were much larger than those depicted, those could be secondaries or something. But the bottom line is that they did fail as predicted. The Mayor, the County and the State should hang. It's their baby and they had the funds or least could have done more rather than just point the finger of scorn towards Washington.
cheers
No argument here... I agree, the levee's were pathetic. They looked like levee's from a third world country without money or resources... Unfortunately it takes a disaster for the US government to take this stuff seriously...Quote:
I figure this is the best place as comments for this may get out of hand regarding it
No argument here... I agree, the levee's were pathetic. They looked like levee's from a third world country without money or resources... Unfortunately it takes a disaster for the US government to take this stuff seriously...Quote:
I figure this is the best place as comments for this may get out of hand regarding it
There are alot of major reasons why these differences are so stark. However, they're mostly political ones and incompetence at the local government level. The US government doesn't deserve and blame for why the disaster happened in NO. The Louisianna State gov. and NO itself deserve the blame. What alot of non US citizens don't seem to understand, (and even alot of Yankees for that matter) is that the USA is not a Federal Unitary government.
There are alot of major reasons why these differences are so stark. However, they're mostly political ones and incompetence at the local government level. The US government doesn't deserve and blame for why the disaster happened in NO. The Louisianna State gov. and NO itself deserve the blame. What alot of non US citizens don't seem to understand, (and even alot of Yankees for that matter) is that the USA is not a Federal Unitary government.
As HTRegz says:
...................I would just like to add a few comments that might add a little perspective.Quote:
None of this applies to me
The three European schemes depicted are vastly different from the NO situation, not only in their cost but in the threat they are intended to counter They are basically defences against the sea and tidal fluctuations..................we don't get hurricanes here ;) This is a year in year out threat that is continuous, and fairly predictable; both in location and magnitude...........hurricanes are not so obliging.
Looking at the NO picture, I can see that the retaining walls in the background are still intact. Also the walls that have failed appear to have done so because they were undermined, not because they were overwhelmed. IMHO this is an engineering design/construction problem, and if you get that bit wrong, it does not matter how much money you throw at it.
As I see it the main failings were:
1. Defences designed to withstand a category 3 event when it was known that category 5 events were possible, and those inbetween were probable.
2. Failure to take account of rapidly changing coastlines, ocean currents and climatic behaviour patterns. Sea defences need to be reviewed on an ongoing basis, not every 20 years........I live on the coast and see this happening all the time over here.
If you want to read more this is an excellent site, just browse the links on the left :)
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/
As HTRegz says:
...................I would just like to add a few comments that might add a little perspective.Quote:
None of this applies to me
The three European schemes depicted are vastly different from the NO situation, not only in their cost but in the threat they are intended to counter They are basically defences against the sea and tidal fluctuations..................we don't get hurricanes here ;) This is a year in year out threat that is continuous, and fairly predictable; both in location and magnitude...........hurricanes are not so obliging.
Looking at the NO picture, I can see that the retaining walls in the background are still intact. Also the walls that have failed appear to have done so because they were undermined, not because they were overwhelmed. IMHO this is an engineering design/construction problem, and if you get that bit wrong, it does not matter how much money you throw at it.
As I see it the main failings were:
1. Defences designed to withstand a category 3 event when it was known that category 5 events were possible, and those inbetween were probable.
2. Failure to take account of rapidly changing coastlines, ocean currents and climatic behaviour patterns. Sea defences need to be reviewed on an ongoing basis, not every 20 years........I live on the coast and see this happening all the time over here.
If you want to read more this is an excellent site, just browse the links on the left :)
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/
nihil hits it on the head. the EU levies woul nto have withstood katrina....we are dealing with something a lot nastier then a north sea storm, to think otherwise is askign for trouble. Not much could have saved NO...one of the projects that could have made a differance, the federal wetlands reclimation taht was started under bush Sr. and continued under clinton was ended by bush jr so he could give tax cuts to the rich.
nihil hits it on the head. the EU levies woul nto have withstood katrina....we are dealing with something a lot nastier then a north sea storm, to think otherwise is askign for trouble. Not much could have saved NO...one of the projects that could have made a differance, the federal wetlands reclimation taht was started under bush Sr. and continued under clinton was ended by bush jr so he could give tax cuts to the rich.
When Louisiana figures out a scheme to collect taxes from the Netherlands
to pay for their levees, then they'll improve them. On the other hand,
maybe they'd just spend it on liquor.
:cool:
When Louisiana figures out a scheme to collect taxes from the Netherlands
to pay for their levees, then they'll improve them. On the other hand,
maybe they'd just spend it on liquor.
:cool:
In 1953, 1,835 Dutchmen lost their life due to a breach of the dikes. The cause? A hurricane.Quote:
Originally posted by nihilThe three European schemes depicted are vastly different from the NO situation, not only in their cost but in the threat they are intended to counter They are basically defences against the sea and tidal fluctuations..................we don't get hurricanes here
The Deltaworks can easily withstand a hurricane of Katrina's force.
In 1953, 1,835 Dutchmen lost their life due to a breach of the dikes. The cause? A hurricane.Quote:
Originally posted by nihilThe three European schemes depicted are vastly different from the NO situation, not only in their cost but in the threat they are intended to counter They are basically defences against the sea and tidal fluctuations..................we don't get hurricanes here
The Deltaworks can easily withstand a hurricane of Katrina's force.
Wow...did a search on google....Thanks for clearing that up Negative
The deltaworks is truely impressive
http://www.deltawerken.com/English/1...setlanguage=en
http://www.picturesofholland.nl/Delt...aworkstext.htm
Just some of the links I found....
MLF
Wow...did a search on google....Thanks for clearing that up Negative
The deltaworks is truely impressive
http://www.deltawerken.com/English/1...setlanguage=en
http://www.picturesofholland.nl/Delt...aworkstext.htm
Just some of the links I found....
MLF
Negative
I agree that we get severe weather, flooding, and that many lives have been lost, but we do not get "hurricanes". Some people incorrectly refer to very bad weather as a "hurricane"
From a strictly meteorological viewpoint a "hurricane" has to be a "tropical cyclone" and we are way too far from the tropics. The closest resemblance to the mechanism happens very rarely in the Mediterranean, but that is a very small area with a very low tidal range.
What we do get are "cyclonic depressions" that produce severe weather conditions. These have a quite different mechanism, being driven by horizontal temperature differences between air masses. Given that they are generated in a relatively small area, coupled with the energy source, I would doubt if they would get much above category 2 on the Saffir-Simpson scale.
A true "hurricane" derives its energy from condensation, so it needs warm water.
Where we have problems is that we have quite large tidal ranges, and these are also seasonal (Spring tides are the highest)............the calculation is along the lines of:
Highest tide level + Maximum anticipated storm surge + safety margin.
Mitigating factors are that our "cyclonic depressions" move much faster, don't "stall" and don't "meander" as a general rule.
:)
EDIT: This is the UK view of the same climatic event:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/feature...53_flood.shtml
Negative
I agree that we get severe weather, flooding, and that many lives have been lost, but we do not get "hurricanes". Some people incorrectly refer to very bad weather as a "hurricane"
From a strictly meteorological viewpoint a "hurricane" has to be a "tropical cyclone" and we are way too far from the tropics. The closest resemblance to the mechanism happens very rarely in the Mediterranean, but that is a very small area with a very low tidal range.
What we do get are "cyclonic depressions" that produce severe weather conditions. These have a quite different mechanism, being driven by horizontal temperature differences between air masses. Given that they are generated in a relatively small area, coupled with the energy source, I would doubt if they would get much above category 2 on the Saffir-Simpson scale.
A true "hurricane" derives its energy from condensation, so it needs warm water.
Where we have problems is that we have quite large tidal ranges, and these are also seasonal (Spring tides are the highest)............the calculation is along the lines of:
Highest tide level + Maximum anticipated storm surge + safety margin.
Mitigating factors are that our "cyclonic depressions" move much faster, don't "stall" and don't "meander" as a general rule.
:)
EDIT: This is the UK view of the same climatic event:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/feature...53_flood.shtml
To understand the cruddy condition of the levees in NOLA, one first has to understand the political carnival that is Louisiana politics...
1. Louisiana is the only state in the US whose laws are based on French Common Law instead of British Parliamentary law.
2. Corruption is rampant in Louisiana politics, and always has been.
3. The Cajuns LIKE it that way - since the days of Huey Long, who was one of the most popular Governors in Louisiana history, the crazy cajuns have voted for corruption every time - for concrete proof, go google Edwin Edwards - read on the scandals and how he was thrown from office, only to be returned to office after a term of being out.
Now follow the money trail and figure out why the levees were poorly maintained and outdated... I personally guarantee you that most of the moneys allocated for levee maintenance and updates was funneled directly into Mayor Berry's pockets, and several other corrupt politician's pockets all the way up the chain. Now that the situation has national attention, expect the levees to come in line to today's standards or better, and expect them to stay that way until the national eye is moved elsewhere...then the erosion/corruption begins anew.
To understand the cruddy condition of the levees in NOLA, one first has to understand the political carnival that is Louisiana politics...
1. Louisiana is the only state in the US whose laws are based on French Common Law instead of British Parliamentary law.
2. Corruption is rampant in Louisiana politics, and always has been.
3. The Cajuns LIKE it that way - since the days of Huey Long, who was one of the most popular Governors in Louisiana history, the crazy cajuns have voted for corruption every time - for concrete proof, go google Edwin Edwards - read on the scandals and how he was thrown from office, only to be returned to office after a term of being out.
Now follow the money trail and figure out why the levees were poorly maintained and outdated... I personally guarantee you that most of the moneys allocated for levee maintenance and updates was funneled directly into Mayor Berry's pockets, and several other corrupt politician's pockets all the way up the chain. Now that the situation has national attention, expect the levees to come in line to today's standards or better, and expect them to stay that way until the national eye is moved elsewhere...then the erosion/corruption begins anew.
Nihil > I know that, technically, I shouldn't call it a hurricane. The winds reached 11 on the Beaufort scale. 8 on the Beaufort scale is an F0 tornado, while everything above 11 is a hurricane.
The difference is that in The Netherlands, the winds didn't cause direct damage: they did, however, move a mass of water the size of the North Sea and dropped it on The Netherlands.
The Deltaworks are designed to stop hurricanes, and can easily withstand hurricane-strength winds. Those dikes don't care what you call what you throw at them...
That doesn't mean that there won't be any water going over the dikes, but they won't move an inch no matter what size hurricane you throw at them - because that's what they're designed for. The Dutch are ready for something that happens once every 10,000 years, NO wasn't ready for something that happens once every 50 years...
Nihil > I know that, technically, I shouldn't call it a hurricane. The winds reached 11 on the Beaufort scale. 8 on the Beaufort scale is an F0 tornado, while everything above 11 is a hurricane.
The difference is that in The Netherlands, the winds didn't cause direct damage: they did, however, move a mass of water the size of the North Sea and dropped it on The Netherlands.
The Deltaworks are designed to stop hurricanes, and can easily withstand hurricane-strength winds. Those dikes don't care what you call what you throw at them...
That doesn't mean that there won't be any water going over the dikes, but they won't move an inch no matter what size hurricane you throw at them - because that's what they're designed for. The Dutch are ready for something that happens once every 10,000 years, NO wasn't ready for something that happens once every 50 years...
http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=5532Quote:
Yesterday, the Louisiana State Senate refused to shut down the operations of one of the most corrupt government bodies in the history of the state, the Orleans Parish Levee Board. It was saved once again despite a checkered history that includes spending thousands of dollars on a private detective to trail a radio talk show host critic and spending millions of dollars on projects that were not germane to the safety of the citizens of New Orleans-bridges, casinos, buildings, fiber-optic networks, privatization of an airport, commercial real estate and more.
http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=5532Quote:
Yesterday, the Louisiana State Senate refused to shut down the operations of one of the most corrupt government bodies in the history of the state, the Orleans Parish Levee Board. It was saved once again despite a checkered history that includes spending thousands of dollars on a private detective to trail a radio talk show host critic and spending millions of dollars on projects that were not germane to the safety of the citizens of New Orleans-bridges, casinos, buildings, fiber-optic networks, privatization of an airport, commercial real estate and more.
I have just come across this article which seems to support my educated guesswork :)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...092001894.html
Negative You are quite correct, it is the storm surge and not the wind that we have problems with. For example, the Beaufort scale (of windspeed) only goes up to #12 which is defined as 73-83Mph. A category #1 hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson is 74-95 Mph. That is really because S-S is designed to predict/measure danger and structural damage potential.
The Dutch system is designed to handle surges of c17-20 ft. Katerina only produced 11ft., which is well within the specification. Your comment about water going over the defences ("overtopping") is interesting as it is a lesson we learned from 1953.......................you need to protect both sides of your defences or they will certainly be undermined from the back.
Another thing to consider is the sheer size of a tropical cyclone compared to our cyclonic depressions, and the fact that the tropical cyclone has an eye. Our Thames Barrier would be about as much use as the Maginot Line :D that is a bit academic though, as it would require a Tropical Continental airmass, and they cannot develop a cyclonic depression.
I have just come across this article which seems to support my educated guesswork :)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...092001894.html
Negative You are quite correct, it is the storm surge and not the wind that we have problems with. For example, the Beaufort scale (of windspeed) only goes up to #12 which is defined as 73-83Mph. A category #1 hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson is 74-95 Mph. That is really because S-S is designed to predict/measure danger and structural damage potential.
The Dutch system is designed to handle surges of c17-20 ft. Katerina only produced 11ft., which is well within the specification. Your comment about water going over the defences ("overtopping") is interesting as it is a lesson we learned from 1953.......................you need to protect both sides of your defences or they will certainly be undermined from the back.
Another thing to consider is the sheer size of a tropical cyclone compared to our cyclonic depressions, and the fact that the tropical cyclone has an eye. Our Thames Barrier would be about as much use as the Maginot Line :D that is a bit academic though, as it would require a Tropical Continental airmass, and they cannot develop a cyclonic depression.
Try throwing a Penis at them. They hate that.Quote:
Try throwing a Penis at them. They hate that.Quote:
:rofl:Quote:
Try throwing a Penis at them. They hate that.
...but I think what your refering to are dykes ;)
MLF
:rofl:Quote:
Try throwing a Penis at them. They hate that.
...but I think what your refering to are dykes ;)
MLF
Cripes - I nearly pissed myself on that one! I did spit out some water though.Quote:
Try throwing a Penis at them. They hate that.
Crap!
On the levies - hopefully the our country - once the finger pointing stops - will look to those who have improved or nearly perfected their own systems so we can improve ours.Quote:
You must spread your AntiPoints around before giving it to gore again.
TLC has a show coming up detailing and praising the Dutch system: http://tlc.discovery.com/tvlistings/...=0&channel=SCI
Cripes - I nearly pissed myself on that one! I did spit out some water though.Quote:
Try throwing a Penis at them. They hate that.
Crap!
On the levies - hopefully the our country - once the finger pointing stops - will look to those who have improved or nearly perfected their own systems so we can improve ours.Quote:
You must spread your AntiPoints around before giving it to gore again.
TLC has a show coming up detailing and praising the Dutch system: http://tlc.discovery.com/tvlistings/...=0&channel=SCI
there was a plan a few years back of epic proportions but it was knocked down by environmentilists and the fishing industry because it would hinder the movement of fish in the brackish water areas.
money were sent for hurricane planning and spent on night clubs for tourism
more money was sent and used to widen a bridge to bring in more tourists
now that the cows gone maybe we'll finally figure out how to close the barn door
there was a plan a few years back of epic proportions but it was knocked down by environmentilists and the fishing industry because it would hinder the movement of fish in the brackish water areas.
money were sent for hurricane planning and spent on night clubs for tourism
more money was sent and used to widen a bridge to bring in more tourists
now that the cows gone maybe we'll finally figure out how to close the barn door