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I want to start programming to make security things. Like password programs, IP scanners, and other things but what languge should I use. Python, C, C++? I want to become a perfessonal in this field so I would like any of your suggestions. Also any tutorals or books will be greatly appreciated. (Sorry I can not spell that well.
You may find that the membership will be more forthcoming if you were to add some details along the lines of :
I have tried the following languages
I have been reading books by .......
I have attempted to make 'this' work
that kind of thing, the post comes over as a lazy mans guide to tuition
first thing is that YOU have to help yourself
THEN you ask for advice as to how you should proceed in relaton to the bullet points previously stated.
your profile shows you to be 15 / 16
so you have that most precious of all the commodities ......... TIME
get a book [buy or join a library] on each language
try each one
find the one that 'suits' you
learn THAT one
practice
get a job where you can utilise your new found knowledge
practice more
as for the spelling issue, it's no biggie here as the forum is truly international
welcome to AO
enjoy your time here
learn to learn
the very first time i started learning to program is one of the best times of my life.
i wanted to suggest a brochure/book which i have read when i was still in gradeschool, but i forgot the title/author (silly huh).
anyway, i'll describe the book, in case somebody here recognizes the description.
first the preface of the book says that "this book is meant to make you think like a programmer, not to actually teach you how to program". that phrase helped me become a real programmer. it's a very good opening for a book for a beginner, wouldn't you agree?
it's more like a puzzle/quiz book than a conventional book. it's kinda for 10-year-olds book. there are logic questions on all of the pages. and some parts explains basic logic methodologies like "if-else" situations and "and-or" situations. flowcharts have been tackled very in-depthly. i think there's an entire chapter dedicated for flowcharts.
i distinctly rememberd the "help agent" on the book. it's a one-wheeled-robot. and most of the characters in the book are robots. sure, this is a book for kids.
if only i can find one again, i would want to give it to my son (when i get to have one).
all-in-all, foxyloxley's suggestion would be very good for you. and then i would like to add that you should read plenty of logic books.
welcome KGComputerFreak to the world of programming
how about instead of bashing the kid and dampening his spirits help him. my first book was Learn C in 21 days.....about as basic as it gets. software stores carry books a lot of the time like your elec botique and babbages (now software etc. i believe in a lot of places). C is I believe the most commonly used language and a good starting point for life. depending on what OS you want to develop for initially C is standard. windows nerds like their C++ and Assembly.
where, exactly are we kid bashing :confused:Quote:
how about instead of bashing the kid
all I failed to add were links to google and a couple of books
we are not here to hold peoples hands
here we try to get you to help yourself
nothing wrong with that
if you thought that was kid baiting ...................
you must be erok's cousin :D
C is asstastic. Learn C++, it builds strong bones and healthy teeth. Be sure to pick up some materials on software engineering while you're at it so you learn proper software development process too.
I'm sorry, windows nerds like c++ and asm? Windows nerds like .net languages such as managed c++, c#, and vb.net.
Noobs....*sigh*
http://public.research.att.com/~bs/C++.html
- Stroustrups page.
http://cplus.about.com/od/beginnerct...blcplustut.htm - Tutorials!
http://csis.pace.edu/~bergin/STL/STL.html - STL is goodness and joy, it's also a library of datastructures and algorithms that you can use in your c++ programs.
My suggestion would be to start with a language like BASIC. The reason you would start with languages like this is because they use more plain english and are easier to understand. Also, you can read other peoples code easier even if you don't know all the commands, because it uses english. I started with Liberty Basic, http://libertybasic.com/
[edit]
This language is very well explained in Beginning Programming for Dummies
Book Website
Amazon
[/edit]
it has its pros and cons, but I think it is excellent for beginners.
There is info on programming languages allong with a chart that shows different languages and how they are rated on difficulty to learn, expert usibility, etc.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/3472/program.html
If you want to see lots of programming language code in different languages, here is a great website to look at:
http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/
Whatever you do, don't learn COBOL. I was a Cobol programmer for years... :eek:
Cobol corrupts the brain, disrupts neuron activity and makes you a drunk. Well, ok, it doesn't make you a drunk...I was a drunk before I learned Cobol.
Seriously though, I've heard from multiple sources that C & C++ are the way to go. Java, J++ aren't bad either (although they are intense languages).
The only advice I can really give you comes from experience. Flow charts are your friend. Trust me, they seem trivial but, can help you develop sound programming techniques not to mention, they help you find flaws in your logic *long* before your boss is yelling at you because you wrote 8,000 lines of code and the damn program doesn't work AND it's going into production in 2 days.
Remember:
Flow charts = friend
Remote Testing Site for your Company's Programs = Anti-Christ. :D
Good Luck.
heh... i dont have the patience to program code.. which is why i work at inetech to begin... kidding.. which is why im going the network admin route.. although programming is a building block to a good admin.. you do your job better if you know how exploits work, how progams work, and where possiable problems can be found
random opnion
Your first days of learning programming are going to be fun and satisfying, but only if you keep with it. I used to have many friends in high school that were interested in computers and programming, but as time went on, some of our skills developed quickly and others did not.
Here is my advice for you:
1. Learn C
The C programming language is one of the most widely used programming languages. It is easy to read, easy to write, and not difficult to understand. The best part about it is that it is relatively small, so you can get up to speed quicker than other languages that have object-oriented or web-related features (such as C++ and Java). Also, as time goes on, you'll realize that many programming languages usually stick to the C-style syntax. There are countless reasons why I would recommend C first. It is the first programming language I mastered (although I dabbled in Pascal first but it was a short stint).
Recommended Reading: "The C Programming Language" by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie.
This is the most popular book on programming and you probably don't even know it. Have you ever noticed that many beginner programming books start out with a "Hello World" program? Well, this book is where that started. Written by the creators of C, this was the first definitive book on the C programming language. It is clear, concise, and, being just over 250 pages, relatively short. You will find that information in this book is dense as well, but not so dense to the point where you are overwhelmed. I read this book cover to cover when I was 17 and I feel that it gave me the foundation to become the professional I am today. Look around the net, this book is one of the best resources on both C programming and programming in general.
2. Learn Assembly programming for Linux
After you master C, you will have a great understanding of how the computer works through logic and allocates memory. The next natural step is to see how this happens in a very low level sense. Mind you, mastering C will probably take a year or more, so don't rush it. Anyway, learning assembly programming sounds very difficult to some. However, if you have a strong foundation in C, then you are half-way there. The only difficult part is interfacing with the operating system, that is why I recommend learning assembly programming on Linux. It is a very well designed OS and using assembly with its system-call is extremely simple. However, it is not simple to the point where you aren't learning anything. You will still learn about the stack, the heap, calling conventions, system-calls, etc.. If you can master assembly programming while having a foundation in C, you will have the skills to be proficient in many areas such as application security, application development, operating system development, and the list goes on and on.
Recommended Reading: "Programming From The Ground Up" by Jonathon Bartlett
This book is a great introduction to assembly programming using Linux. Although it is meant for beginner programmers, I feel that it would be a little too much for a newbie. However, a person with C programming experience could dive right into this book and begin learning quickly. Much like K&R, this book is clear, concise, and relatively short at around 300 pages. The book clearly describes the use of Linux system-calls, the stack, buffers, the C calling convention and many other topics. The best part about this book is that it is free! You can purchase this book from most book stores if you like (I did), but if you are cheap or just curious you can downloaded this book under the GNU Free Documentation License. For anybody that knows C/C++ and wants to learn assembly programming, I highly recommend this book.
3. Focus your expertise.
Once you have the skills to program, begin to focus your skills in a certain area. You could program network scanners like you wanted. Or you can focus on an area of business such as financing or architecture. The sky is limit and it is completely up to you.
I can't recommend any reading material, but I'm sure you can find something.
However, I will repeat this. Learning programming is fun, exciting, and pays off in the end only if you stick with it. If you are going to devote time to learn about something, then sit down and do it. I can't stress this enough.
Good luck!
Thanks very much guys especially biosx. I have one more question. I heard that the linux operating system was made frome C. Is this true?. I already know a few languges like Liberty Basic, and a little bit of Python. I want to agian thanks for the help and good luck to you all in your future programs.
You are very welcome.Quote:
Originally posted here by KGComputerFreak
Thanks very much guys especially biosx. I have one more question. I heard that the linux operating system was made frome C. Is this true?. I already know a few languges like Liberty Basic, and a little bit of Python. I want to agian thanks for the help and good luck to you all in your future programs.
What you heard is true. The Linux kernel is programmed in C and assembly. However, you have to remember that the Linux kernel is only the core of the OS. The kernel is surrounded by various pieces of software that are written in various languages. Most GNU software from the Free Software Foundation is written in C. However there are various other parts that are written in C++; one of most recognizable is the KDE window manager which uses C++ and the Qt library.
Since almost every piece of software that deals with Linux is open source, you can download the program code and see what it is programmed in yourself!
Again, good luck and stick with it!!
What about learning perl?
I agree with Jurdian,
You can start with C++ programming in this site:
www.cplusplus.com
I advice you to learn Perl,Python and Delphi also
I started with Java. Helped me learn how to actually seperate my files. When I later went on to C++, creating header files; implimentation files and test files were easy. Each programming language can be powerful, as long as you know how to use it.
Here's some advice.
When making your header and implimentation files, throw in a lot of tracing statements and constantly compile throughout your writing process. This will limit errors and help you have a better understanding of how exactly your program works. Sometimes knowing when the copy constructor is used; the difference between passing by reference and passing by the actual object; and how the programming language deals with memory will be extremely huge. I'm no expert, but security has a lot to do with knowing exactly what a program does. I don't mean just knowing the outcome, but knowing how it came to that outcome. Exploits are found in between a going to b.
perl and python, maybe....depending on what you want to do. Screw Delphi.
I found this topic very interesting as I'm going through the same process right now, trying to choose a language to learn.
Not to put a damper on the people advocating C/C++, but I found a very interesting read:
"C++?? A Critique of C++ ( 3rd Edition )"
The author puts up some very interesting and valid points on why NOT to learn C++. Its a very interesting read and informative but it also assumes understanding of C++. I knew enough to get by. Regardless I'm still going to try to achieve a somewhat proficient understanding of C/C++ because of the fact that it's widely known and used.
And that sounds like a very good book Jetherson. I'll do a search around and hopefully find something just as helpful. IMO kid books like that help build a pretty solid foundation to learn everything else. Maybe it might be a good idea to learn logic before doing any programming language? :confused:
On another note as I havent even done anything even remotely as looking at exploit code, but is it should be possible to create a given exploit using any programming language?
So much to learn and so little time. :o
Depends on the exploit and vulnerability, and depends on the language. Not all languages have the low level hooks to get to places where some vulnerabilities live. Most current OSs don't allow direct access to the hardware (i.e.; HD reads and writes). So, most of the current generation of high-level languages have it built into the libraries to make requests through the OS for services.
Some languages are more appropriate for certain types of applications or tasks. If I were putting together in-house tools for managing IDS and system logs, I'd probably go to Perl for the flexibility. VB and C# just make string and array handling difficult and ponderous. Perl makes it simple and flexible, and it is platform independent.
Of course, I'm just learning Perl, so I don't know the full capability of the language. So far, I'm impressed.
I think it all depends on what type of programs you want to write. Python, Perl, etc. are more scripting languages than anything else. C/C++, Java, etc. are more robust languages that can be used to build cross-platform applications for a variety of purposes.
Personally, I think that C is a great language to start with because it teaches you the "top-down" approach to programming and is a less forgiving language (syntax-wise) than some more modern languages. Many modern-day compilers (especially certain Java compilers) will allow you to make any syntax errors and still build fine without any errors (something which is not very useful when first learning how to program).
C++ or Java are great if you want to start with Object Oriented programming (I'd recommend Java because it forces you to use OO, instead of C++ which will allow you to program both imperatively and object orientedly). There are a few drawbacks, however. First of all, you will not only have to learn the logic and syntax of whatever language you choose, but also learn the more difficult concepts of OO. Additionally, Java doesn't allow the use pointers, which means that you will you have quite a bit of trouble understanding linked lists, hash tables, etc. Although pointers can be very dangerous in programming, by learning them you will gain a much deeper understanding on how many data structures are created, allowing you to make better use of them in your own programs.
I'd also recommend grabbing a book on an assembly language (either ASM or MIPS) so you can learn how things are programmed at the machine level. (ASM seems to be more popular among many people on sites such as this, though MIPS is used a great deal in both academia and the industry).
Ultimately, it all boils down to what you plan to do. I know you mentioned a couple projects already. Did you want to develop those for Windows? *nix? Depending which environment you plan to use, different languages may be better suited to the task. Additionally, each environment has their own developmen tools. If you want to go straight into a .NET language, Microsoft has a number of free "Express Editions" of their popular .NET languages which are part of Visual Studio .NET. There are other free compilers as well (Bloodshed's a good one for C++ if you want an IDE or gcc if you don't; NetBeans is a good one for Java if you want an IDE, or you can use Sun's command-line tools to do it yourself).
Personally, I started with C++, and then learned C and Pascal before moving on to Java, SmallTalk and a few logic and functional languages. Professionally, I program Windows apps in C++ and Java. I also do embedded programming using C (primarily because the RTOS I'm using is programmed in embedded C, though I've started designing my own RTOS using embedded C++ recently to overcome some of the limitations I've discovered in C). I also use ASM for the interaction between the hardware and software.
If you want recommendations on books, shoot me a message and I can recommend some good ones, not only for learning a specific language, but also for deciding which type of language to use (depending upon your project), as well as basic to advanced software engineering concepts.
A.J.
Ugh, yet another person who believes that python and perl are only scripting languages. I've made several custom programs that would be difficult if not impossible in other languages. One would be a custom inetd firewall, very effective! Another is quick system administration, like searching for files, creating new directories, etc. (I made an entire shell around this ability), i've made a map creation application, meant for a now stalled game. I know both Java and C++ and i can tell you python is good.
Python is a good language for learning how to program, as it doesn't use weird symbols, or weird things like header files etc. Its simple, and straightforward. It does not require you to know OOP like Java does, but you can do OOp if you wish(OOP = object oriented programming). Best of all: READABLE. This is key for longterm projects. Perl is for throwawy scripts, C++ for heavy duty math, and processing, and python for everything else. Notice I didn't include Java!
If you intend on being a serious professional in a security research position, then I'm afraid you aren't going to be able to get away with learning only a couple of languages. Even for simple tools as you suggest, there are at least three languages you should know (IMO C++, VBScript, and Perl), and that's just to provide you a baseline of understanding. ASM and a good understanding of C is a good thing to have when working with debugger dumps. If you ever end up having to write web tools, you can use a .NET language, or pick up PHP.
My point in all of this is that no one language will suit all situations. I've encountered a lot of language zealots who think their language is best for pretty well everything, and it's just utterly foolish.
- IME there is no language better than Java at being portable. It is simply bar none way easier to port apps properly between Windows, Linux, and MacOS.
- VB is generally much better for RAD than other languages.
- C++ seems to me to be the best all around natively-compiled language.
- C is good if you wanna learn memory management, and/or lower level type stuff than C++.
- Perl rocks as a scripting language on Linux, and if you have ActivePerl your scripts can be fairly portable.
- VBScript is (as much as many hate it) a generally good scripting language for Windows to know. Many sample scripts are developed with it, as well as the fact that it's the most backwards capable of the options on Windows.
I've never really had an occasion to learn/use Python, so I can't comment on it.