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I have a Question about AntiOnlines rules on deleting posts.
I had a thread called "**** censorship" which was generating some good discussion.
I'd like to know why it was deleted and who deleted it.
I never got to read the end of the thread myself :(
I did, but unintentionally. I intended to delete the last post, but either I was too tired and bollixed it up, or there was a software error. Probably me. Unfortunately "undelete" isn't an option here.
H'm.. Ok.. well in that case I'll hijack this thread to continue the discussion..
The main points were..
This site might be public and might have open access for minors, but this is a site for IT professionals.
Does a site like this need to supress some english words and allow other (worse) words.
Why supress a word that is the best bang for a buck when it comes to expressing you emotions ?
I know that things have changed in previous years when the site exchanged hands from JP to JupiterMedia and that it might be in the spirit of the clean and wholesom Jupm to not allow cusswords.
If anyone can provide me with a studdy that suggests that words like **** are bad for minors please do, cause I sure as hell can't find any.
JP:
So you intended to delete my post? I understand it may have been a bit immature but I was just trying to make a simple point.
The word **** means nothing and in this day and age has become a word used by both "Intelligent" and "Less than intelligent" people. Including myself.
I find it quite interesting (disturbing) that a thread with "Censorship" as a title was removed.
Not trying to cause trouble, as I have always tried very hard to restrain my inner child. But I think that Jinx's original thoughts were important, as this is a real issue.
P:
Nic
>>>>Funny that The_ Jinx, and I have both been members since '01, and we are both pissed by this, hmmmmmmmmmm<<<< Not a coincidence.
Seriously folks, I support Joe on this one................
It cannot be "censorship" if everyone knows what you said?
F*** Off
Is pretty obvious, is it not?.............hardly "censorship"?
It is the way that professional publications over here handle things, so Jupiter Media is only following what I would consider to be normal guidelines/practise?
No big deal?
Quote:
Originally posted here by nihil
Seriously folks, I support Joe on this one................
It cannot be "censorship" if everyone knows what you said?
F*** Off
Is pretty obvious, is it not?.............hardly "censorship"?
It is the way that professional publications over here handle things, so Jupiter Media is only following what I would consider to be normal guidelines/practise?
No big deal?
Heheh I think that is funny considering I have never met any group of people that use the F-Bomb more in a normal conversation than the Brits!
;)
Folks, the acceptable use policy has been in place since we became the publishers of the site, the fact that is wasn't enforced, notwithstanding. But the guideline has always been present.
Quote:
Originally posted here by JPNYC
Folks, the acceptable use policy has been in place since we became the publishers of the site, the fact that is wasn't enforced, notwithstanding. But the guideline has always been present.
You are just doing your job Joe, I think we all understand that. I think the original policy is the issue.
:cool:
Hey Nicolas old mate! this is Johnno................
Joe is correct in my humble opinion...............this isn't a censorship issue .............
swive orf vous grenoille merde
See, that did not get censored did it?
;)
I still say that there is no censorship on this site. But, as we are talking about it, how is The Specialist?..................like him to let rip would you?
:D
I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents again...
The sole purpose of language is to communicate a feeling or an idea...that IS what language is used for...
words by themselves have no moral or ethical contentation ( content ) in and of themselves...it is the use...the context...that decides the moral value...
it is ridiculous, having any understanding of the function of language, to restrict it's use based upon archaic and puritan notions of morality...
having said that, and having pointed out in my deleted post, that I do not make a habit of it myself, there are times when the situation calls for it that these words should not only be acceptable but should a part of our regular vocabulary...
based upon the fact that language is expression, expression used to convey an idea or feeling in such a way that it is understood and is representative of what the person is trying to get accross
if I spill coffee all over my desk I'm not going to say...oh, darn...as that is not what I am feeling at the moment and therefore is not properly using the purpose of language...what I am going to say is...godda#m sonofab@t#h, f%ck why'd I do that...that properly conveys my sentiments of the moment...
when used in a proper context they are valid according to the rules and purpose of language...the only time they are not is when they are used out of context...like everyone knows someone who swears just for the sake of swearing...
eg. I went to the f@ckin' store today and bought this great...< this is an improper use of these words and can be incredibly f#cking annoying.
the rules and purpose of language is to communicate a proper representation of what the person is trying to convey...it has nothing to do with puritan morality or archaic notions of ethics...if language is restricted in it's proper use then it is rendered ineffective as a way to communicate the proper meaning that is meant to be conveyed
Eg ;)
Valid point John, I guess it is just a very sensitive topic.Quote:
Originally posted here by nihil
Hey Nicolas old mate! this is Johnno................
Joe is correct in my humble opinion...............this isn't a censorship issue .............
swive orf vous grenoille merde
See, that did not get censored did it?
;)
I still say that there is no censorship on this site. But, as we are talking about it, how is The Specialist?..................like him to let rip would you?
:D
While I agree with your use of the Specialist as an example of what we would not like to see, I think that often we all consider ourselves individuals, and we would in our minds like to think that our words are dealt with on a sort of "case by case basis", but the fact remains the rules are here for everyone and anyone. This I will accept.
I think it is, and always will be difficult for many of us, including myself to realize that AO is far bigger than just a select few. At times I feel (and I am sure) that I do receive a certain amount of creedence when it comes to my posts. I do appreciate it trust me. As I am an ignorant bastard at times.
I do however think it is important that people including my esteemed colleague The_Jinx be allowed to voice his, or her opinion regarding the overall rules whether enforced or not on this site.
We all (those of us who have stuck around for years) enjoy being here, and I think it is very important that it not become a complete dictatorship. Which I truly do not believe it has. (yet)
P:
Nicolas
Quote:
Originally posted here by JPNYC
I did, but unintentionally. I intended to delete the last post, but either I was too tired and bollixed it up, or there was a software error. Probably me. Unfortunately "undelete" isn't an option here.
I just can't resist...............................
Joe thank god you are not a brain surgeon.
;)
Nicolas
I do realise that I should probably be banned for that post..............after all mixing pre 1000 Saxon with 1500's French? but this is what we do?
But isn't that what it is about?...........................we CAN say what we like.............providing that we are intelligent enough?
;)
Call it what you will.. I think word blacklist are a childish way to deal with a stuck up general public.
It's one of those things (like DRM) that hurts the people that are playing nice a lot more then the people that want to abuse their rights..
In the Netherlands we don't *bleep* out words on TV in general.. I was watching a program on the EO (a strict Christian broadcaster) and they were interviewing some kids and there was some *bleep*ing there..
The thing is I wouldn't have noticed the words if not for the bleeps and I think the same goes for this forum..
People won't notice an ocasional **** if it wouldn't have been bleeped out ..
Quote:
Originally posted here by nihil
Nicolas
I do realise that I should probably be banned for that post..............after all mixing pre 1000 Saxon with 1500's French? but this is what we do?
But isn't that what it is about?...........................we CAN say what we like.............providing that we are intelligent enough?
;)
Everything cept for ****.
**** and goddamn are ok though.....................
Jinx just say it this way HOT FRODOMA! (sounds like a sandwich)
The almighty C word, favorite of the Brits(edited it out) works too, damn JUP update your Censorship proggie! lol
:D
With the way the "internet" is, the very idea of censorship, is like sticking your thumb in the hole while the rest of the dyke falls apart......it's out there now....and like I said in the deleted post, what constitutes a minor nowadays, if it's the old 16 yrs of age, then forget it, this age group could teach some of us some new words to say...
If it's less then that, then they are not going to stick around a "Tech" forum (no games)...have you heard children nowadays, as young as 8 and they are very aware of the language.....
Censorship of any kind is just wrong......and if we are all supposed to be adults on this site, then lets act like it, and if the language of adults is such that it is peppered with profanities, then so be it......but to edit out words because they may offend someone is off base, it's like the TV, if your offended you can either a) change the channel b) turn it off.....
I am not familiar with 1,000 Saxon or French for that matter, so disguising the words in the form of another language is what? maybe we can all learn new languages by trying out curse words in say Japanese or Chinese or Finnish, that will really mess those minors up.... :rolleyes:
"Nicolas was branded on the bum,
And may the Lord bring us all to Kingdom Come"
Chaucer............about 1350 :D
Mind yourself in that kitchen mate :cool: :D
I'm pretty sure that if I were a brain surgeon, spontaneous working from home in the middle of the night wouldn't be possible ;)Quote:
Originally posted here by Galdron
I just can't resist...............................
Joe thank god you are not a brain surgeon.
;)
Hi all,Quote:
Censorship of any kind is just wrong..
Dalek, do you agree with the people who put out the Freenet program who feel that freedom of speech also includes the right to traffic in child pornography and promulgate terrorism? Is there a point where "free speech" becomes evil?
Yes, words are the ways by which we express emotions, ideas, etc. But does that mean that every idea or feeling that I have needs to be expressed? Is every idea or feeling worthy of expression? This morning I lost my temper and uttered some profanity. Did it help me to express my thoughts in that particular way? Not a bit. Was anyone else helped? No.
Is every word good and helpful? Let's take the word f**k. When someone uses that word does it bring to your mind the idea of a beautiful act of love between a man and woman who love one another? Or something else? What effect does that particular word have on you? Isn't the idea of sex being "profaned" by this word?
What is profanity? Isn't the key idea that something is being "profaned"? Something is being made common or devalued.
I know that some people on this site work for corporations. When they are called on to make a presentation to a group do they lace their presentation with profanity? Why not?
Hmm, lot's of philosophy in this thread.
It's actually pretty simple. The AUP says no f bombs. It does not say that the word is wrong or immoral.
Simple playground rules. Play by em or go somewhere else.
That said, many of us follow rules that we don't agree with. This includes me too.
Anyway, another useless opinion.
--TH13
Hi preacherman481,
Because of long standing archaic and puritan notions of morality. Words alone cannot be moral or immoral, except in the context they are used...and that goes for any object as well.Quote:
I know that some people on this site work for corporations. When they are called on to make a presentation to a group do they lace their presentation with profanity? Why not?
eg. a gun is neither moral nor immoral in and of itself...but in it's use.
The word f@ck is considered vile because we deemed it so, and built a reputation upon it...we could do the same for candy...they are just words and words by themselves have no power except in that which we give them.
If we all agreed that f#ck was now a useful word to express ourselves with then it would no longer be vile...it would no longer have the puritan values put upon it.
It's superficial and a corruption of the basic purpose of language to restrict it's use...language is meant to express our feelings and ideas in a way that is readily understood...the concept of restricting that use was a religious concept of morality that did not nor does take into account the very nature of language itself or the guiding principles of morality.
The very fact that a single word can still make people cringe shows the deep embedded result of hundreds of years of church/religious rule...it's sad and ridiculous that a single word can have so much power over people.
Eg ;)
Words may have no instrinsic meanings, other than what we humans attach to them, but without that step there is no language. For instance, if I say someone is malodorous, I have not used profanity, but I have insulted. Now malodorous has no intrinsic meaning. It's just a collection of sonic accidents. However many anglophones will know what is meant by it, and if so accused, will be insulted.
The "values" to which we respond are as current as the weather. You may deem them archaic, but this does not make them so. It takes much more than an individual to change convention.
This is a public message board, albeit privately owned. We don't respond to any restrictions that other public mediums, such as major newpapers, tv, and radio, do not also respond to. This IS a case of "when in Rome....."
*sigh* Does this have to turn into a Cosmos thread? TheHorse13 pretty much summed it up -- this website does not allow the use of the "f" word. So don't use it.. You don't spam the forums or abuse antipoints do you? No.. why? Because it's part of the rules.. so is this.
It's really that simple.. *sigh again*
Joe, if it is the Specialist can I join the queue to sign your expenses/overtime form?Quote:
I'm pretty sure that if I were a brain surgeon, spontaneous working from home in the middle of the night wouldn't be possible
Albeit from a very useful person?.IMOQuote:
Anyway, another useless opinion.
Not really, freedom to say something is not "evil" per se................I am going to put this straight in your face fellah............you and I are free to "go forth and preach the Gospel" are we not? Now, is that "evil"?Quote:
Is there a point where "free speech" becomes evil?
OH! and a happy Easter from my Wife and I to all sad enough to read the nonsense I usually post (except in "hardware")
:D ;)
Happy Easter, Nih!
JPNYC: Alright, so you forget about me? Heh.. I see how things work around here ;)
Happy Easter Spyder~ to you and yours,
:D
Sorry bud, HAPPY EASTER SPYDIE! :)
Haha, no worries guys.. I knew it in your hearts ;) And a very happy easter to both you you aswell.. :)
Is it just me, or does this thread f*u*k*i*n*g suck.! :rolleyes:
Oh and happy easter johnno, and spyder. ;)
I have a solution....every time you have the urge to use the F word, replace it with "gosh", for the S word, use "gee", sort of like WTG (What the Gosh) or RTGM (Read the Gosh Manual), or even better...STGU (Shut the Gosh Up), as well when saying, your full of S, use gee instead..."your full of gee"...
There are a few other's that can be used to replace the offensive words: Gee Whillikers, Gosh Darn Almighty, Well Blow me over with a feather...... :D
So Happy Gosh Darn Easter all you Gee heads..... :rofl:
if you want to sware
hide your post... the option is there for a reason
most people will click on the post anyway, its not like you have to move earth to read it
plus, you give potential guest readers a friendly warning, stating that this post may not be up to par with professional standards
Neville Shute "On the Beach"????????????????
It sort of involves submarines?
But you really have to go for "Das Boot" do you not? saw it in Belgium, many years ago..........
:D
On the beach was sort of a love story more then anything else, the concept was great though, would make for a good remake today.....there is no comparison for Das Boot, it is simply the best sub movie ever, with subtitles, I prefer the editors cut, the opening party scenes bring tears to my eyes (sad).....regular visits to the head to speak to the man on the great white telephone was very common....lol...Quote:
Originally posted here by nihil
Neville Shute "On the Beach"????????????????
It sort of involves submarines?
But you really have to go for "Das Boot" do you not? saw it in Belgium, many years ago..........
:D
The sad thing about this is that a thread that basically amounts to complaining about the AUP gets 4 pages in less than a few hours, not to mention how many responses appeared in the other thread. While relevant security threads that do not revolve around arguing which OS is better(or more secure by default) never even get close to half a page...
Would this be a criticism of my policy of banning members an deleting their posts?Quote:
never even get close to half a page...
:rolleyes: :cool: :D
That's because there not in Hardware Now if they were, then they'd have heaps of pages. ;)Quote:
never even get close to half a page...
f2B.!
Holy ****!
When the **** did **** start showing up as ****ing stars?!
You can use also "frak" or "frell" as a replace for F word. If you can say it on TV, you can say on AO :o
Hi JPNYC,Quote:
Originally posted here by JPNYC
Words may have no instrinsic meanings, other than what we humans attach to them, but without that step there is no language. For instance, if I say someone is malodorous, I have not used profanity, but I have insulted. Now malodorous has no intrinsic meaning. It's just a collection of sonic accidents. However many anglophones will know what is meant by it, and if so accused, will be insulted.
The "values" to which we respond are as current as the weather. You may deem them archaic, but this does not make them so. It takes much more than an individual to change convention.
This is a public message board, albeit privately owned. We don't respond to any restrictions that other public mediums, such as major newpapers, tv, and radio, do not also respond to. This IS a case of "when in Rome....."
Actually, I was not making one point but several...I said...
words themselves have no moral value in and of themselves...it is the ' context ' in which they are used that determines their value...
so...
words can be offensive in the ' context ' that they are used. We have already established that. All you did was confirm what I had already said.
The value is archaic...every word, every definition, every use of the word has a starting point, a history, so I'm not the one who deems them so...history is. And history has shown that words can change in value and meaning at any moment in time.
Political correctness is a perfect and perverted example of how acceptable words can be suddenly deemed unacceptable...and it works both ways.
Going back to ' context ' for a moment...f@ck, I just stubbed my toe...is offensive only in a puritan sense, it has no personal objective other than to express one's displeasure with pain...it's not the same thing as calling someone a stupid f#ck...which has a clear offensive meaning.
' Context '...
As for JupMed catering to the public line that's understandable...you're not Rosa Parks or MLK...your objective is not to change or champion causes...it's to make money..so whether these concepts are archaic or puritan or not you see this from the perspective of your bottom line.
The last thing I was getting at was my personal opinion...I think it's ridiculous for a word, in and of itself to have any controversy...people should be able to say f#ck when and whenever they want to as long as it is not directed at another in a malicious manner.
And maliciousness is not the sole domain of swear words...virtually any expressive word can be used in a malicious manner...combined with the right tone and facial expression.
Eg ;)