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This is pretty interesting to me especially when I'm seeing the Govt. *require* contractors and employees to carry certain certifications.
What do you guys think of this?
Study Shows Downside of IT Certification
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895...06dtx1k0000599
Curious that CISSP didn't appear in there as I heard last year that it was one of the highest earning security certs.
I think employers are getting more savvier to a degree and starting to base hiring on true abilities as they are learning that just having the letter doesn't mean you actually have a clue or two.
I have little faith that employers have two cents of a clue who they hire. Thankfully our managers understand they are managers, not technicians, and ask their team leads to interview with them. We weed out alot of bad applicants, like the MSCE applying for an Enterprise Administrator position supporting our multiforest AD structure and not know what schema is.Quote:
I think employers are getting more savvier to a degree and starting to base hiring on true abilities as they are learning that just having the letter doesn't mean you actually have a clue or two.
I too was surprised. At IANETSEC this year, there was specific mention of the CISSP being a must have when shopping *AND* practicing.Quote:
Originally posted here by MsMittens
Curious that CISSP didn't appear in there as I heard last year that it was one of the highest earning security certs.
I think employers are getting more savvier to a degree and starting to base hiring on true abilities as they are learning that just having the letter doesn't mean you actually have a clue or two.
Again, I'm not so sure I buy into this article because in my experience, those who are rating applicants have no idea how to weight IT skills. Because of this simple fact, I tend to believe that the study is BS.
Just for the record, I'm not saying that because I have a bunch of certs. I've seen first hand how HR fouls up this process.
To me a cert says that you have a basic understanding of a defined set of concepts. This is not the same as saying a person has a very good skill set.
Anyway, another 2 centz
--Th13
Its like my old saying...mostly because we have a doctor shortage in the community here where I live...and frankly the doctors here really do pale in comparission of what I was used to in a major NA city.
I travel to Toronto still for my family doctor...have been living here for over 12 years
"Just cause your a doctor.....dont make you a good one"
\just cause you have the certs...doesnt make you any good at the subject.....
And most jobs now require a variety of skill sets...not just technical savy
my .02 cdn
MLF
What I like now is that there is a real associates degree you can get that weighs more than any cert called Computer Security Administration. It is even easier to get than CISSP or RHCE or any of those certs. You just have to check into it.
Actually, this point is a biggie. I'm constantly amazed at how many IT people I speak to and email that cannot put two coherent sentences together. And then expect you to understand or help them. Soft skills -- i.e., the ability to get your point across, explain something, etc. -- are incredibly valuable in the IT industry and it's not just knowledge around the system or how much of a BOFH you are.Quote:
And most jobs now require a variety of skill sets...not just technical savy
??? Interesting. Of course, to get a CISSP, you have to have four or more years of verifiable professional experience. Of course your associates degree is easier to get. Takes all of two years and you get to party hardy the whole time. You still have no, zero, nada real world experience with just that degree. And, who says that it weighs more than any cert??? Your teacher?Quote:
Originally posted here by ViRalNeXxUs
What I like now is that there is a real associates degree you can get that weighs more than any cert called Computer Security Administration. It is even easier to get than CISSP or RHCE or any of those certs. You just have to check into it.
To respond to other posts, HR has completely ruined the IT hiring market. Recruiters and HR departments have misunderstood certifications and credentials to the degree that they have single-handedly diminished the value most of them. It is particularly frustrating for those of us who have put in a lifetime of work and effort to hold the certs and creds we do have.
I agree with ya bud...I've seen it too in mine and other orgs.Quote:
Originally posted here by rapier57
To respond to other posts, HR has completely ruined the IT hiring market. Recruiters and HR departments have misunderstood certifications and credentials to the degree that they have single-handedly diminished the value most of them. It is particularly frustrating for those of us who have put in a lifetime of work and effort to hold the certs and creds we do have.
I understand the need to screen applicants but I personally look down on and dont even consider employers who REQUIRE a degree for security jobs. If they will consider experience as a substitute than I'll consider that company.
Requiring certs is OK but not if it's exclusive...I know a lot of extremely talented pros who dont have appropriate certs. Again, should allow for experience to substitute if appropriate for position. Also, dont think that ALL positions warrant requiring certs.
Agree with ya guys about where's CISSP - definitely reduces the credibility of that study.
I couldn't have said it better myself. If you look closely at the article it grades all of the certifications together and quotes "pay premiums" as increasing 3 times faster.Quote:
Again, I'm not so sure I buy into this article because in my experience, those who are rating applicants have no idea how to weight IT skills. Because of this simple fact, I tend to believe that the study is BS.
I could think of a quite a few ways to skew the findings.
1. lump all certs together, say you have 20 certs 18 rise 20% and 2 fall 150%
2. certs rise 2% and non-certs rise an amazingly three times faster 6%
3. non-certs <- what does that mean (kinda generic) allowing you to make it whatever you feel like
little or no parameters
4. 6 months is a generally small time frame for percentages rising and falling
Ga!
How do I get my post to say who the quote is from?
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Use the quote button on the post you wish to quote from or check the box (beside the Quote option) for the posts you wish to quote from and then hit Quote Checked.Quote:
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Yes and no. The MCSE got devalued by those that held it without ever touching an NT box (I've met those people -- it's really scary). We have to keep in mind that when HR receives resumes (and it's not just a few, it's thousands in some cases) they have to have some way of sifting through the piles to find those that might work. I have to give credit to VMWare. They have a positive way of finding those that make the cut. There are 3-4 interviews (1 phone for initial knowledge, 2nd phone for troubleshooting/process thinking, 3rd interview in person for general intro, fit with company, etc., 4th with the big boss). This process includes sifting through the piles of certs, etc. so that interviews are done on a specific basis. But there's a little more to it than that. Employees can recommend someone and get a bonus for it. I suspect it's not just that people are looking beyond the certs, but they are relying on IT's network to find those that do fit.Quote:
To respond to other posts, HR has completely ruined the IT hiring market. Recruiters and HR departments have misunderstood certifications and credentials to the degree that they have single-handedly diminished the value most of them. It is particularly frustrating for those of us who have put in a lifetime of work and effort to hold the certs and creds we do have.
Well, my understanding is those that don't have certifications like A+, Security+, MCSE, CISSP, etc.. Now, it doesn't mean that they don't have degrees (Bachelors, Masters, etc.).Quote:
3. non-certs <- what does that mean (kinda generic) allowing you to make it whatever you feel like little or no parameters
Well just for the record, I would hire a guy that used to be a hell's angel over a professional cert collector if the hell's angel had the mad skillz that I desire. I too have seen paper MCSEs who don't even know how to join an exchange server to a domain.
Am I going somewhere with this? Yep. :)
Funny story. My mentor (who works with me now) used to be a hell's angel then went on to work for IBM in the early 70s where he developed an OS for them that is still in use today.
He has no certs, no college education, nada. He is self taught, reads *all* the time and has an IQ of 151.
A cert is a single part of an overall presentation. You need many things to be successful.
All too true. A cert is a nice to have, my company pushes their employees to collect any that are related to their job, skill set or career path, but if you get on site and we see you're a paper cert. You won't make it past your 30 day evaluation.Quote:
A cert is a single part of an overall presentation. You need many things to be successful.
Usually the guy/gal with the full bowl of alphabit soup listed is the last person we look to call unless they have references from prievious jobs.
To tell you the truth Rapier I got my associates in Computer Security Administration and yes I still don't have a job because of experience! I don't know if it exactly weighs more than a CERT, but I think it is all about how you carry and present yourself, even if you have to BS a little bit. Of course you could get the CSA degree and the CERTS and maybe that will even up the odds. I need all the help and luck I can get.Quote:
Originally posted here by rapier57
??? Interesting. Of course, to get a CISSP, you have to have four or more years of verifiable professional experience. Of course your associates degree is easier to get. Takes all of two years and you get to party hardy the whole time. You still have no, zero, nada real world experience with just that degree. And, who says that it weighs more than any cert??? Your teacher?
To respond to other posts, HR has completely ruined the IT hiring market. Recruiters and HR departments have misunderstood certifications and credentials to the degree that they have single-handedly diminished the value most of them. It is particularly frustrating for those of us who have put in a lifetime of work and effort to hold the certs and creds we do have.
I am not surprised at all. However, I do not discourage people from getting more certifications because:
1. The process of studying for certs usually bring additional level of knowledge and formal coverage of subject.
2. You may not make lots of money anymore if you hold a cert. However, a certification usually adds value to your resume. It rarely or never hurts your resume as long as you know what you are doing.
3. Trends of what employers value change from time to time. In doubt, hold as many certifications and degrees you can for a better chance.
Quote:
Originally posted here by thehorse13
This is pretty interesting to me especially when I'm seeing the Govt. *require* contractors and employees to carry certain certifications.
What do you guys think of this?
Study Shows Downside of IT Certification
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895...06dtx1k0000599
only if now they pay more, now you haev certs and now more then the pay still the same!
So would you hire someone who has no certs but can represent a good working knowledge of security?
I went halfway through my HPUX Certification when I realized that I probably wouldn't land in an entirely HPUX environment. Maybe unix certification is different than others because I've never seen any "Must be HPUX/Solaris/AIX certified" on any unix administration job.
And to answer the previous poster's question, I have zero certs and zero college but I've been doing unix administration for the past ten years because of my mad skillz, yo. Hehe! :D :D :D
As for certs...I think HR ruined it entirely, starting with MCSE's back when it was the "hot topic". "Here, look for this word...MCSE...anyone who doesn't have it, forget it". Yeah, that surely weeded out those who are veritable rock god porn stars with MS everything but not certified as well as bringing in paper-mcse's who can't create a profile.
I had a dicision to make a few years ago as to whether I was going to go the cert route, or the degree route. I chose to go the degree route and am in my senior year of computer engineering, and I couldn't be happier with my decision. I have already been given a good job in the IT industry and I am not even finished with my degree yet. If you are making a similar decision, I would highly reccomend going the degree route. This article simply enforces that fact.
When you say degree route, is that a bachelors ?
If so, that would be the right thing to do because that is typically a requirement these days.
If it is a graduate degree, I would say I would invest in certifications instead.
What our organization pushes is constant or lifelong learning and experience. Simply stated, they want the formal education - in regards to a Bachelors, Masters, etc, PLUS certifications, as needed, PLUS on-going experience. HR can perform a checklist for some candidates, however, the 1-on-1 time is what will truly determine the merit of a candidate. The degrees and certs are milestones on the journey to lifelong learning, not ending points, and they serve to hone experience gained in life and on the job.
So what the hell do I mean? To compete in the global market for IT - and probably other industries as well, you don't need one or the other, in terms of a degree or cert, you need any and everything, as many tools in your toolbox that you can fit: the degree(s), certification(s), and the experience. On top of all that, you need to build and hone the interpersonal skills and knowing a few foreign languages doesn't hurt either. Hence lifelong learning and experience.
On your mark, get set, go!
Sure, yes, your objective should be a combination of a BS + technical graduate degree + certifications + masters.
However, if you are in the process of establishing priorities and seeking what you have to do first, I would:
1. Get a BS degree in a technical field.
2. Work, then study for relevant security certifications.
3. If you need and you can afford, invest $5,000-$6,000 in security related training. That is a small investiment when compared to a cost of a masters degree.
4. Get a full-time job and hopefully let your employer sponsor your masters degree.
I am saying that because I've spent so far $15,000 in 2/3 of a masters, then I got a job offer from another employer willing to pay 100% of expenses towards a degree. The total cost of my program is $50,000.00. I think an individual can become marketable with BS + experience + certs then later get a masters. Rarely job ads require a masters. So it has been more like nice to have, but not a requirement (yet?).