The Patriot Act Must Die...

Am I the only republican alive that thinks the Patriot Act is out of control? And I say that on the eve of the 7 who were arrested for plotting to blow up the Sears Tower and a Federal Building in Miami. But at the same time I just got off a conference call with the DMV. Do you realize what this thing has become? I don't care how brain washed all you righties are out there. Think for yourselves.

I have clients in the financial sector. The latest... when you are approved for a car loan from any source. They have to report your drivers license information to the government. Why does the government have to know where you get the money? They already know what car you have, rob you of a months pay and force you into compliance with their federal statues.

And that is just the surface. You people are BLIND. I supported this to weed out problems after 911 and I don't regret any of that. But now, after the initial period was supposed be be over... we got duped and it's every right wing talk show and automaton "patriot" that did it. Except for perhaps Mike Church and the likes of crazy old bastards like Mike Savage.

One word.. PAY ATTENTION.

Erm - pay attention is 2 words. :p

You can't get a credit card/personal loan without it being reported to the government. You can't Western Union someone more than $1000 without it being reported to the government. You can't withdraw more than $50000 from your own bank account without it being reported to the government by your bank. Why would you think they wouldn't be reporting your car loans too?

Your post comes at the right time :)

Check this out.

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US government officials said the programme was limited to tracing transactions of people suspected of ties to al Qaeda by reviewing records from a Belgian cooperative known as SWIFT, or Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication, the "nerve centre of the global banking industry," the newspaper reported on its Web site.

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Bloody Belgians...

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Treasury officials said SWIFT was exempt from American laws restricting government access to private financial records because the cooperative was considered a messaging service, not a bank or financial institution.

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Ahahhaaahhh... Now that makes perfect sense :duh:

Edit: Here's the original NYT article that got the ball rolling.

And of course - as usual - the right is quick to say that "Yet again, the New York Times was presented with a simple choice: help protect American national security or help al Qaeda. Yet again, it sided with al Qaeda." (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...A5YTQ3NzkxZWQ=)

My dear friends and Allies,

Please do not think that anything is much different over here in the UK, it isn't. We don't have a "Patriot Act" as such, but we have very much similar legislation.

This is nothing to do with "patriotism" or even "terrorism" for that matter, it has
EVERYTHING to do with T A X A T I O N

See..............I even spelt it out in brightly coloured capital letters to match a US/UK politician's crayon set :p

Please remember that Al Capone was NOT busted by the FEDs, he got 13 in Joliet for tax evasion, courtesy of the IRS.............and how did they catch him?............. well he had "assets in excess of his declared earnings" we have exactly the same legislation over here (apart from sentencing rules) and have had for a similar period of time :eek:

Have any of you guys wondered why, under US taxation law, the US/UK double taxation agreement is Section 485, and under the UK's Income and Corporation Taxes Act the UK/US double taxation agreement is Section 485?

This is a sign of politically bankrupt pseudo-civilisations, who have already sold their children's legacies to the Chinese, going into their death throes.

I guess I have ranted for enough now?



:D

What's a Taxaton? :D

Good Boy!

"A politician on the end of a rope"?????????????

:D

"The right" opposed the passage of an income tax, but people wanted
to "tax the rich". "The right" opposed the passage of the social security
tax, but the people wanted the income in their old age. It is ironic seeing
the same people who favored every other restrictive and confiscatory
regulation on the economy, now awaken to the danger of using the
regulatory power over financial transactions used to catch some raghead
murderer. I can't stir myself to get outraged over this one.
:cool:

Interesting slant on it there rcgreen I am obviously not American, but I suspect the complaints are that the legislation is being brought in under the guise of counter-terrorism. That is; "through the back door".

As I mentioned, we have had this legislation in the UK for some time now (pre-9/11) and it came in "through the front door"...............sort of :(

Our "Income Tax" is quite amusing............it is a "temporary tax to finance the Napoleonic Wars", which I thought we had won some time ago? Still, because of this, it has to be re-approved every year :D

What amazes me is that with all this security and scrutiny over private law abiding citizens accounts how is it that some criminal armed with my SS number can open up a charge account for himself with me holding the bag?

Why are the laws rigged for credit companies to stiff citizens for their screwups, they issued the card erroneously they should eat the bill, put a $10,000 penalty on any misreport to someone's credit report. See how fast this "one click" credit lasts.

I have no illusion of privacy but why is it I needed to provide 2 forms of ID for me and my children when opening a passbook savings account at a local bank but as I said with a SSN someone can make 1 click and get a charge card.

It's not so much the patriot act, its the whole political system (Dems, Repubs), the soft money, the PACS, the lobbyists. This is not what Jefferson and the founding fathers had in mind. We should throw the whole lot out in the next election. Representatives should represent their constituents.

All politics in the US have a corruption factor do to the pay politicians get. Remove the financial aspects of politics and these greedy devious bastards will go somewhere else.

example: us congress voted them selfs a raise do to the cost of living rising, $3100 per year bringing their total years pay to nearly $170,000. Just after this the same congress rejected a bill to raise minimium wage for the people that actually notice the cost of living.

They don't seem to give a rats behind about the people rights or opinions, and obviously think they are above the law. I dont beleive the information being gathered is in good faith, they wouldn't be going through the trouble unless somehow there was money to be made.

OK, this is COSMOS , so I assume that I am allowed to rant and speculate a bit?

We are now living in a "carpetbagger society" where scumbags with their $3,000 dollar Armani and Boss suits and their alligator shoes scramble to extort the last dollar that they can.

Our governments are acting the same way?.......................when we actually worked, produced, and generated wealth they did not have a care, because the taxation revenue flowed in, and the national balance of payments was positive.

Now, you try to find something that isn't "made in China" these days............... that is the problem , we are nations of middlemen, wide recievers, quarterbacks and so on.......................... useless drones and parasites, and our governments are acting accordingly.

We are a cancer to ourselves, as we are consuming the wealth that we previously earned through hard labour and industriousness.

Stuff GATT, stuff the "free market" now is the time for protectionism, before our time runs out?

That way we all learn to live within our means?

I enjoyed that :D

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I can't stir myself to get outraged over this one.

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I can. SO who is coming out in 2008 who has the BALLS to retract Patriot Act even though our "friends" in congress have made a lot of it permenant. My Guess, no one. And green is right, it does not make sense to always support extra taxation and control of the government and selecetively pick the political battles that only support the dems, just as crazy as it is for the Right Wing to constantly cry fould at government control via taxation and support those currently in power who are using the patriot act to further that power.

Deb I do pay attention. Everytime ANY one this country sends a wire, they are checked against a database. No matter WHAT the ammount it. Anytime someone in this country (sitc) makes a cash deposit over 10k it is repored as a "suspicious activity report" Good thing we are all be check for susicious activity. If the bank "believes" you may be avoiding the 10k limit, you are reported. And it's not limited to wires., it could be an ACH transaction. When you open an account a bank is required to prove they verified your ID. By prove I mean you are checked against every damn database the government provides. Then you are risk ranked to COMPLY with the Patriot Act. Risk ranked as a citizen with no ties to any form of illegal activity. And it gets worse but my pupils are going to explode.

Anytime sitc, deposits miltiple transactions of verious dollar amounts it gets reported. Business' with payroll and reason to deposit these amounts must be analysed risk ranked and then the bank must SHOW due dilegence in keeping on top of these customers. and Document their activity. If that doesn't sound like citizens complying with the wishes of the gestapo out of fear of retibution through indimidation and fines.... I don't know what else is.

My concern for the US people..is this


The Government is collecting all this data...and

who has access to it????....who is looking at it....????

Can they keep this info secure.... :rolleyes:

Here in Canada....most of our civil servents have an IQ well below average ( the ones I have dealt with anyway) :rolleyes:

I am sure it is the same everywhere.....

Anyway...
It is these people looking at this information...and making assumptions ....

To have some diguntled governement employee...reviewing this information....and targeting someone...through envy, jealously...or whatever...makes me shudder

Just a can of worms waiting to be opened.....

MLF

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Can they keep this info secure....

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<sarcasm> yes, very secure. Their track records prove that its secure. **waves hand** this is not the personal data you are looking for</sarcasm>

If proper 'Policies" that dealt with Confidential/Secret documentation were properly handled a lot of these so called leaks would not take place, to say a silly servant is usually the dumbass that is at fault is ignoring the larger picture.

Micro Management has resulted in a breakdown of standards, maybe the Government should be required to apply for an ISO standing like all other companies that require standards to ensure their products meet all requirements (set by law)

Someone mentioned the term "Due Diligence" which is not practised enough, as can be seen with all of the recent "Data" thefts, as for the "Patriot Act" and some of you are going to think what the feck has a Canadian to say about this, well as the border between our two countries is basically only on paper to begin with, a lot of commerce (1 Billion a day) passes between us, so that means there is a busload of information transferred back and forth on a daily basis, we have bank branches in the states, and I am sure the US has similiar in Canada, so whoever reviews this information is seeing it from both sides, also whatever the FBI decides to share with the RCMP or CSIS is also of concern.(not always the case)

So whatever your "Homeland Security" decides to do under the protection of the "Patriot Act" does affect us as well...should be a concern for everyone, your constitution is different then our constitution (Charter of Rights and Freedoms)http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/C...h/ca_1982.html but with every change to your's, you can bet it will affect our's, espescially now that the border's are a major concern for security (both ways)

The Gov't's of both countries know's when you are born and when you die, when you pay your taxes and of course when you don't, they have a wealth of information on you now, the scary part is what happens when they get coordinated enough to put it all together, I am sure the beuracracy on the State level and Federal level is mindboggling sometimes, I know the Provincial and Federal in Canada can be confusing...Information Overload.......sponges can only hold so much water, at some point the water has to go somewhere, same with information, it gets out...

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Here in Canada....most of our civil servents have an IQ well below average

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Same here.............when I asked her to marry me she said "yes"......... and compounded the felony by showing up at the church :D

IQ of Civil Servants? That is why they are civil servants. They got a job, have to do 1/4 of the work and keep behind on trends. Easy. Not everyone, but 99.9 percent.

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The Government is collecting all this data...and

who has access to it????....who is looking at it....????

Can they keep this info secure....

Here in Canada....most of our civil servants have an IQ well below average ( the ones I have dealt with anyway)

I am sure it is the same everywhere.....

Anyway...
It is these people looking at this information...and making assumptions ....

To have some diguntled governement employee...reviewing this information....and targeting someone...through envy, jealously...or whatever...makes me shudder

Just a can of worms waiting to be opened.....

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From what I can tell it's pretty secure. But who cares? It's just waiting for someone to decide their politics are more important than their duty. There is no reason to collect so much. I have spoken PERSONALLY with those high in the food chain on this and "they" cannot keep up with the massive reporting. Imagine every bank in the US doing this? Regardless of what the congress wants law enforcement branch to do, this only backlogs their efforts and makes the real crimes less noticable because of volume. "They" have asked congress to back off. But Laws is laws... until someone closes this can of worms. Watch.. no one will do it.... then we'll have to get our guns the libs want to steal and take this country back. Open our own can... a can of American Whoop-Ass :D Might be 20 years but someone is going to push enough of us into a hole and history will repeat.

So should the NYTimes be held accountable for treason?

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Some right-wing politicians have even called for the New York Times' editors to be charged with treason

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source

What I find funny about this obfuscation by the current administration is that they treat everyone
as ignoramuses, I am sure the majority of the terrorists can barely read (The New York Times) but to think that they are idiots is really stretching it.

Like any organisation these terrorist's are sophisticated, I am sure they know all about these tricks that are in place to track the flow of money, they probably don't even care as a lot of it comes from offshore anyway's or by courier, which is a whole lot harder to track I bet.

This is just about payback, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this info was surrepticiously provided so that the administration can go after some of the media, let's face it, lately Bush and Company have come under a lot of scrutiny lately thanks to the wire tapping fiasco, and also there is an election in the fall, so Bush needs to win some brownie points for his successors, so why not go after the media and make them look "Un-Patriotic"....

Slippery slope here, IMO the news media should with respect to National Security be allowed to report on just about anything it has handed to them or finds out on their own (Watergate), if the media becomes muzzled, then the last voice of reason is gone and the administration will have free reign to do what it please's without the public knowing anything about it.

I think they should batten down the hatches and start finding these people who conveniently leak this information to the press, all federal employees I would assume are vetted by the NSA before becoming employed by the Government, and must be induced to sign something like an "Official Secrets Act" waiver that they cannot divulge information, for at least 6 months from their last day of work or retirement, I know I had to sign one when I retired, the reason for the 6 months is that any information sensitive or otherwise that I may be in possesion of, has a shelf life of relevance.

Looking for scapegoats, sh*t rolls downhill, usually this stuff is leaked by higher ups, and you know upper management will never take the fall for this stuff.

Just my 0.02 cents

IMHO I dont believe the New York Times should be held accountable for treason. I do how ever beleive the US government and Department of Homeland Security should be held accountable for their incompatance in securing their program. If the data was secure, which it is not, the world would have never known about what they were doing.

What is imho pitifull is this is coming from the administration who has no problem when it is them who leak the information. Just like when they leaked the information on a serving CIA operative just to discredit her husband for disagreeing with their position on the iraq war. Of course if the NYT is sanctioned for printing the story it will be a sad day for the US and the result will be that in future the stories will be run by forign papers.

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IMHO I dont believe the New York Times should be held accountable for treason. I do how ever beleive the US government and Department of Homeland Security should be held accountable for their incompatance in securing their program. If the data was secure, which it is not, the world would have never known about what they were doing.

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spamdies how did you want them to secure the information? They are working with an international company in Belgium. I'm surprised it wasn't leaked before afterall they have been running the program since just after 9/11.

For some reason, this does not feel like the same government I volunteered to defend, so many years ago now. Maybe it was always this way, just not as blatant.

I understand the need to fight terrorism and at times, our own morals and values, along with civil liberties, get put on hold, or just swept aside in the pursuit of national security. However, if this is our future, then we are no longer following the principles of a democracy or republic, but that of fascism. And while I continually hear and see rationalizations from this current administration, fascism, continues to echo in my head. :eek:

So now, as a citizen body, do we continue like the sheep we are, or follow our democratic process to replace our government? I no longer buy the 2 party system, both are, at least at the federal level are corrupt and no longer represent the will of the people, that much is evident to me; and at this point, it is only the opinion of an enraged patriot. :fpissed:

I would suggest anarchy at this point, but like communism, humans, as a group, tend to distort the true meanings of those philosophies... so let's just pry our collective heads out of the sand, become more educated and aware and start getting involved, otherwise our nation is doomed... or worse bought and sold... and in parts that has already happened. :(

Well I don't think that the NYT did anything wrong. They are a newspaper and what they reported was in the public interest.

Terrorists are NOT fools, if they were they would be easily apprehended and we ALL know that that is not the case?

I personally do not have any great issue with this sort of monitoring. Surely everyone realises that it has been going on for many years, and has just got progressively more sophisticated.

The main aim of this monitoring is the war against DRUGS and organised crime. There is a "bonus ball" in that it also catches people evading taxation. "Anti-Terrorism", "Homeland Security"......... I firmly believe that these are just excuses to justify more funding and to involve other parties at no cost to the government

Drugs and organised crime are bad...............you will get sympathetic noises, but when you throw terrorism into the formula you will get the support of outfits like SWIFT and other pan-national institutions.

Crime generates large quantities of money, terrorism does not. Actually, terrorism isn't that expensive to run, so it is unlikely to be detected by these methods? My point is that VOLUME is crime and fraud............... unusual directions and repetitiveness is more likely to reveal terrorist activity................. but they know that ;)

My closing observation is only that criminals are ordinary people with a somewhat "different" way of earning a living (all the politicians jobs had gone :D ) ...............they will buy houses and cars, take out loans, use credit cards and so on.................... Terrorists are a completely different sort of animal. I can only hope and pray that your administration realsies this.

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So should the NY Times be held accountable for treason?

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MURACU any time the NY Times prints anything you might as well get out your Wellies. It's deep in there. This story isn't really related to what I am yammering about. Outside of the USA, in international waters, I don't care if they monitor funds coming and going. I see a need to try and understand where Al Qaeda gets it's money. It does get it from somewhere they cannot operate as long and as skillful as they do without a funding source. And I wager it's huge. Call me selfish. Internal I see the mass monitoring of EVERY citizens financial business wrong as hell. External, I don't care. Its outside US. If England wants to check my pint charges at a pub it's their business. Chances are good we aren't the only one's doing it right now. And I bet France is front and center.

There is only one reason the NY Times would print that. Get them Wellies. Bush needs his own pair but the NY Times is the other extreme. It wasn't leaked before because it was making arrests. So who does the times help, especially within the article you posted it is stated that congress knew about. Seriously on one hand they need to back off. On the other, those people who keep leaking this stuff should get a clue and I wouldn't mind punching them personally. These things aren't watergate, the left tries to make them seem like it. They are selling us out and I would like to give a personal "thanks".

genx. I vote replace the government. But you watch... I predict Kenneddy will stay. Along with Murtha, Boxer, Kerry, Edwards and all the right wing corpolitic *******s as well. We know Bush is out, Cheney is out... but what about Rice and everyone else? New RC word. corpolitic - corporate life long politician who only see the value of his office through what monetary and power gains he can recieve. One who plays the people and the media like they would a business deal.

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corporate life long politician who only see the value of his office through what monetary and power gains he can recieve. One who plays the people and the media like they would a business deal.

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That sounds like what we have now...it's getting harder to uproot the hangers on then it was before, it's like it is entrenched in their own little world of rules...or somewhere in their job descriptions...

For the funds for the Al Qaeda, we allready know where OBL was getting his funds (family interests in Saudi Arabia) I am sure a lot of the funds entering the states are piggy backed through diplomatic channels, your right in a sense this should have been classified under the principle of "loose lips sinks ships" byword, too many coincidences when it comes to this information suddenly appearing or conveniently "leaked"at the doorsteps of news media, how come they don't leak it to O'Reilly at Fox News, surely he wouldn't blab or would he?

OBL had a fortune as a child of the Saudi elite. But he has been getting money from all over. There were islamic based charity groups here who were funneling millions. Assets have been siezed all over the planet. The Saudi's freezed OBL accounts a long time ago. But obviously he had support there and many places like Afganistan, Jordan, the Sudan, Yemen, dear I say interests within Iraq, Egypt, Iran etc.