Now what for Guantanamo George

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5129904.stm

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The US Supreme Court has ruled that the Bush administration does not have the authority
to try terrorism suspects by military tribunal.

Justices upheld the challenge by Osama Bin Laden's ex-driver to his trial at Guantanamo, saying the proceedings violated Geneva Conventions.

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Bush has responded by putting his fingers in his ears and shouting "La la la I can't hear you la la la"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5131812.stm

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US President George Bush has refused to rule out military tribunals for inmates at Guantanamo Bay detention centre.

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Nice to see the alledged moral leader of the free democratic world ignore the laws he swore to uphold, treat his fellow Americans like the proles from '1984', locking up and torturing prisoners in a way I though the West had grown out of about 300 years ago, filling his and his cronies pockets with enough cash that he looks like he is about to do an Imelda Marcos ( I wouldn't be surprised if they find thousands of pairs of cowboy boots in the white house when he goes, right next to the presidential colouring books).

More:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5131220.stm
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06...ss_with_texas/

Hey Aspman maybe George is trying to get the place ready for Ballmer and Gates?

I have heard that he might just need $26.5 billion in a hurry, and they look like a good prospect :p :D

Seems like our American cousins have problems with rulers called "George" (1776?) :cool:

He was a nut job too :D

Very odd, I just rewatched 'The Madness of King George' on Tuesday when I was off sick.

George will find a work around, lots of roads in Texas need mending, or find another island, there are lots... ;)

I have a solution. I have decided that everyone is right, Bush is wrong and the people should go free. I say load up a big ass plane like a 747 with all of them. Give them each 2000 US. Fly the plane to Laguardia. Bus them to the front of the United Nations building and let every single one of them go. Done deal.

Why not try this persons suggestions

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John Gibson: Why do you think that our international friends would participate in an international tribunal?


GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, they're the ones who've been criticizing Gitmo. Let them belly up to the bar and take their turn at helping protect the world like they say they want to do. Let us see their values. Let's put them on the line. You got to get some other people on the boat with you on this. You know, the President talks about leadership. I'd like to see him show some international leadership on this issue. There's no reason to sequester these people under US control exclusively when they're a threat to the whole world. Let the whole world participate. Let us set, set the rules. Let us control the evidence as we write the rules for the court, and then let the court decide.

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http://securingamerica.com/node/1139

I agree with this, why not include the rest of the World, in trying to get to the bottom of these "alleged" terrorists, and as been said, this whole thing is dragging Bush down, it's been too long, the Military have had their kick at the can, now let an international system do the rest.... :rolleyes:

Yeah. Set 'em all free. Let them blow some more chit up.
Why should we keep arguing aboot this. Send them all to Canada.
There are no terrorists. George invented it all. Nobody blew up the
World trade center. It was done with computer generated graphics.

Get a clue. George has two and a half years left. Who you gonna blame
after he's gone and Osama takes control of Iraq? Not to worry. They only wanna
kill Jews and I ain't a jew, so I'm safe right?
:cool:

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Originally posted here by rcgreen
Yeah. Set 'em all free. Let them blow some more chit up.
Why should we keep arguing aboot this. Send them all to Canada.
There are no terrorists. George invented it all. Nobody blew up the
World trade center. It was done with computer generated graphics.

Get a clue. George has two and a half years left. Who you gonna blame
after he's gone and Osama takes control of Iraq? Not to worry. They only wanna
kill Jews and I ain't a jew, so I'm safe right?
:cool:

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This isn't about blowing stuff up anymore... this is about mentioning it and having Georgie Boi's friends come crashing down and arrest you without a scrap of evidence...

As I still believe, if the US didn't stick their noses in everyone elses business... most of what has happened never would have happened... As for Osama taking control of Iraq... is that why the US is there now??? Not because Iraq harbour terrorists.. or for Oil.. but for Iraq's sake??? Hah... tell that to all the innocent civillians who are in the ground because of American soldiers... tell them you did it for them.... Tell the pregnant woman who was shot for rushing to the hospital that they did it for her and the bullet in her....

Do you Americans ever listen to yourselves?? I get angry when I read this... my blood pressure goes through the roof.. How can you sit and think American is innocent when it comes to anything at all... How can you **** on the world and expect the world to say "Thank you"...

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How can you **** on the world and expect the world to say "Thank you"...

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You are absolutely right. I'll call George and tell him to knock it off.
:cool:

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This isn't about blowing stuff up anymore... this is about mentioning it and having Georgie Boi's friends come crashing down and arrest you without a scrap of evidence...

As I still believe, if the US didn't stick their noses in everyone elses business... most of what has happened never would have happened... As for Osama taking control of Iraq... is that why the US is there now??? Not because Iraq harbour terrorists.. or for Oil.. but for Iraq's sake??? Hah... tell that to all the innocent civillians who are in the ground because of American soldiers... tell them you did it for them.... Tell the pregnant woman who was shot for rushing to the hospital that they did it for her and the bullet in her....

Do you Americans ever listen to yourselves?? I get angry when I read this... my blood pressure goes through the roof.. How can you sit and think American is innocent when it comes to anything at all... How can you **** on the world and expect the world to say "Thank you"...

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First, let me just say that I, and others appreciate constructive criticism from our international neighbors. Non-constructive criticism just sounds like a cornucopia of holier-than-thou whining and bitching, with no real solutions offered

Second, there are many of us who believe our current administration is not serving the public interest very well. Yes we needed to respond to 9/11 and other issues, however, there are many areas for improvement and we need to respond quicker to resolved those issues and improve our face to the international community. If we truly want to be global, we need to think, and act in that matter.

Third, some of us are already working to replace the current administration come our elections, will it be utopia? No, far from it, but we are trying to improve the situation.

Fourth, generalizations are dangerous. I could lump you into a group that hates America, but I will not. I understand your are frustrated, but I would caution you not to put all Americans in one category, we, like most nations on this planet, are a melting pot, and many of us a getting a wake-up call to get more involved with our country and government. Further you speak of Iraqi life being wasted, for which weighs heavy on my heart. I do not have children, but I can only imagines the horrors of life those people have to witness in their home country. What I am finding interesting is that you could care less about American lives being eliminated; perhaps you cheer every time you hear one of our soldiers being killed, maybe not. But have you served in a federal service, not military so to speak, but a federal service, or the like, where you travel outside of your home country? Have you seen the true face of famine, poverty, crime, war? What it is like for all peoples involved at ground zero? I am not looking for you to support my country, I am merely wondering how far your horizons expand? Have you been to Darfur? Would you blame that on the US as well?

Fifth, I do not expect a "thank you" from Canada or any country, even if we did something worthwhile in any of your eyes, because, most likely, if our country is in trouble, the international community, at this point, would let us suffer, and false gratitude is worse than no gratitude. I say we remove our military presence from all areas of the world, and become more like Switzerland, a very secured Switzerland like country. Still involved in business and the like, but become neutral. Maybe that would cut down on the wars and skirmishes, but that would also mean we do not have to contribute to any country, if something, by chance, did break out in war. I think you HT, will enjoy when China and/or India become the world super-powers in the near future.

Sixth, Osama/Usama, is a facade, he is a US controlled puppet.

Seventh, if our Commander-In-Chief does not comply with the Supreme Court, then he should be impeached. His actions are leading me to believe he is running a monarchy and not a democracy or republic.

Hmmmm,

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and having Georgie Boi's friends come crashing down and arrest you without a scrap of evidence

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There is an International court in the Hague. Not really intended for this sort of thing, but I bet that if you brought most of those people up before it, they would be released due to lack of admissible evidence, or any evidence at all?

Just talk to friends who are law enforcement officers or engaged in public prosecution. They will tell you that they know lots of people who are criminals but they cannot do anything about it because they cannot prove it.

Anyway, wouldn't a lot of these people actually be classed as "prisoners of war"?............ the Taliban are the biggest load of scum out, but they were the legitimate administration of the time? Didn't we even support them when they were bashing the Russians?

They were as entitled to recruit mercenaries as any other government?

I am sorry to sound harsh, but the obvious mistake was taking them alive in the first instance?

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Originally posted here by nihil



Anyway, wouldn't a lot of these people actually be classed as "prisoners of war"?............ the Taliban are the biggest load of scum out, but they

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That I believe is the crux of this issue, if they are considered "prisoners of war" then they would fall under the same protection the war criminals of Germany and Japan had and that is the "Geneva Conventions"

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Prisoners of war are accorded a number of protections in the Third Geneva Convention of 1949.

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Geneva Convention

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humane treatment of prisoners of war

Prisoners of war must be humanely treated at all times. Any unlawful act which causes death or seriously endangers the health of a prisoner of war is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions. In particular, prisoners must not be subject to physical mutilation>, biological experiments, violence, intimidation, insults, and public curiosity. (Convention III, Art. 13)

Prisoners of war must be interred on land, and only in clean and healthy areas. (Convention III, Art. 22)

Prisoners of war are entitled to the same treatment given to a country’s own forces, including total surface and cubic space of dormitories, fire protection, adequate heating and lighting, and separate dormitories for women. (Convention III, Art. 25)

Prisoners of war must receive enough food to maintain weight and to prevent nutritional deficiencies, with account of the habitual diet of the prisoners. Food must not be used for disciplinary purposes. (Convention III, Art. 26)

Prisoners of war must receive adequate clothing, underwear and footwear. The clothing must be kept in good repair and prisoners who work must receive clothing appropriate to their tasks. (Convention III, Art. 27)

Prisoners of war must have adequate sanitary facilities, with separate facilities for women prisoners. (Convention III, Art. 29)

Prisoners of war must receive adequate medical attention. (Convention III, Art. 30)


Prisoners of war must receive due process and fair trials. (Convention III, Art. 82 through Art. 88)

Collective punishment for individual acts, corporal punishment, imprisonment without daylight, and all forms of torture and cruelty are forbidden. (Convention III, Art. 87)

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Now most of these are being applied and followed through on with the exception of the
bold indicates their rights as POW's, so a Military Tribunal is illegal according to this convention that the US signed on to.That is what the Supreme Court probably used in their decision..

This isn't the Wild Wild West, the laws are the laws, and no-one should be allowed to circumvent these, even the President of the USA, by his thinking of holding these terrorist's and having them held for trial is no different then the recent news about Marines and Soldiers being subject to Iraqi Laws, their's is a "new democracy" they have courts and judges, why can they not intern US GI's and subject them to the same sort of justice that the US want's to do on the Gitmo's prisoners.(I don't for a minute believe this would happen, and I don't see the US allowing it which is correct, you have to protect your troops, on the other hand, if wrongdoing is happening then the brass had better see to it.)

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Originally posted here by TheShad0w
First, let me just say that I, and others appreciate constructive criticism from our international neighbors. Non-constructive criticism just sounds like a cornucopia of holier-than-thou whining and bitching, with no real solutions offered

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I've offered real solutions.... The reason that Americans are afforded the right to bear arms... is to ensure that the government speaks on their behalf... The current government isn't (or so many of you claim)... so make use of that right to bear arms... There's nothing wrong with a revolution... I've suggested it before.. It's completely viable.. but no Americans are willing to take that action..

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Second, there are many of us who believe our current administration is not serving the public interest very well. Yes we needed to respond to 9/11 and other issues, however, there are many areas for improvement and we need to respond quicker to resolved those issues and improve our face to the international community. If we truly want to be global, we need to think, and act in that matter.

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If you are truly of that belief then you should see my response to number 1.

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Third, some of us are already working to replace the current administration come our elections, will it be utopia? No, far from it, but we are trying to improve the situation.

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To replace the current administration with elections... why wait and give him that much time... take action now.

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Fourth, generalizations are dangerous. I could lump you into a group that hates America, but I will not. I understand your are frustrated, but I would caution you not to put all Americans in one category, we, like most nations on this planet, are a melting pot, and many of us a getting a wake-up call to get more involved with our country and government. Further you speak of Iraqi life being wasted, for which weighs heavy on my heart. I do not have children, but I can only imagines the horrors of life those people have to witness in their home country. What I am finding interesting is that you could care less about American lives being eliminated; perhaps you cheer every time you hear one of our soldiers being killed, maybe not. But have you served in a federal service, not military so to speak, but a federal service, or the like, where you travel outside of your home country? Have you seen the true face of famine, poverty, crime, war? What it is like for all peoples involved at ground zero? I am not looking for you to support my country, I am merely wondering how far your horizons expand? Have you been to Darfur? Would you blame that on the US as well?

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You know in high school (OAC... it was grade 13 back when we still had it.. basically the courses were "first year" Uni courses and now that they're gone first year uni has to be easier)... We had a class on Canada-America Relations... and the book was demonstrating that the US was ust as you called it... a Melting Pot.. while Canada is a Mixing Pot... it showed that in the US you lose your culture.. that you have to melt in and become one... While in Canada it's the opposite.. you are allowed to be yourself... We adjust laws and traditions so that Sikh's can wear a Turban in the mounties as opposed to the required uniform which includes a hat (something that I personally didn't agree with... but we did it)... A country where you can be gay and get married... and we don't say it's unnatural and God doesn't want it... The fact that you called yourself a Melting pot is proof that Canada is a freer (I really hate the spelling of that word) and more open country... As for federal service... at my age all I could do is the military and I'm too bright to fall for that... (no offense to those that due it... well maybe a little.. but it's just my opinion).. As far as seeing proverty and crime.. I can get enough of that in my country, just as Americans can in theirs... and both countries should be working to clean up their own internal problems before caring about outside countries... Last thought here... American lives being lost... I feel bad about the WTC and such... but I really do have a hard time feeling bad about the loss of life felt by American soldiers... When the US had no right being there in the first place... Maybe that makes me a bad person... but I don't think so... If I was a bad person I'd feel bad for the American soldiers and not care about the loss of Iraqi life... the loss of life to innocent civilians... With the soldiers.. at the very least you can say they took the job knowing the risks.. then you'd still feel bad... but when I can say they invaded a country with no grounds for the invasion... then I honestly can't feel bad.... Do you feel bad for the Nazi troops that died??? Something tells me you'd say no.

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Fifth, I do not expect a "thank you" from Canada or any country, even if we did something worthwhile in any of your eyes, because, most likely, if our country is in trouble, the international community, at this point, would let us suffer, and false gratitude is worse than no gratitude. I say we remove our military presence from all areas of the world, and become more like Switzerland, a very secured Switzerland like country. Still involved in business and the like, but become neutral. Maybe that would cut down on the wars and skirmishes, but that would also mean we do not have to contribute to any country, if something, by chance, did break out in war. I think you HT, will enjoy when China and/or India become the world super-powers in the near future.

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I think it'd be great if the US became a very secure Switzerland.... they should keep to themselves more... We've had two world wars and in my opinion the US did very little in either of them... I think the problem was that the US was extremely late in getting involved in those... so now their trying to compensate by starting wars... It's kinda like the guy with the small penis.. he over compensates by buying a Hummer... China and India are free to become super-powers in my mind.. all the power to them... and any other country that wants to... We shouldn't have super powers at all.. but judging by the actions taken by the current super power (spying on it's own nationals, showing prejudice towards it's nationals, killing innocent foreigners) then they really couldn't do any worse.. the only difference is they'd be a little more open about it... but hey.. at least they'd be being honest...

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Sixth, Osama/Usama, is a facade, he is a US controlled puppet.

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At least we agree on something...

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Seventh, if our Commander-In-Chief does not comply with the Supreme Court, then he should be impeached. His actions are leading me to believe he is running a monarchy and not a democracy or republic.

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I don't believe that Monarchy is even the correct word... I believe the proper word is dictatorship... Can't the government, in times of war say that elections would be deterimental to the country and put them off?? I'm willing to bet that before the next election you see that happen...

Ugh, dammit HTregz, you just killed my "yay for Canada vibe". When will you realize that almost every single time you post you only embody the antithesis of everything you claim to be, as well as that of what you proclaim your country to be.

Do you even take yourself seriously? Is that all your posts are? Do you honestly believe that a violent gun-ladden revolution to counter a legislation that won't pass, in a government setup to where revolution isn't necessary.....a real solution? From a "pacafist" no less--one supposedly well versed in physical combat to rival trained military? Wait...now I'm just confused.

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Originally posted here by Evil Moo
Ugh, dammit HTregz, you just killed my "yay for Canada vibe". When will you realize that almost every single time you post you only embody the antithesis of everything you claim to be, as well as that of what you proclaim your country to be.

Do you even take yourself seriously? Is that all your posts are? Do you honestly believe that a violent gun-ladden revolution to counter a legislation that won't pass, in a government setup to where revolution isn't necessary.....a real solution? From a "pacafist" no less--one supposedly well versed in physical combat to rival trained military? Wait...now I'm just confused.

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And here I thought I was doing fairly well with that one... that I was being fairly decent and that I'd lightened up compared to past comments....

To answer your questions.. (which I'll label numerically as they go down the list)..

1) Most of the time... more recently than not though I laugh at the extremist views that start the posts.. or rather I should say what I consider extremist views... While I'm no where near as bad as my posts make me out to be... I can't believe that a single intelligent American could support some of the things that I see members support here (I assume them to be true support since it's generally the inital post that starts the thread) so I take my extremist view in response... Plus more and more lately the posts have been dwindling and I'm sick of seeing the same posts on the main page... At least I know if I take the opposite side of view of everyone else posting that new posts will be made and some life will come back to the forums..

2) I'm not sure i understand the question here.. my posts are exactly what they seem to be..

3) I do believe that it is a viable solution... If you aren't happy with it, change it... from what I've heard and read both Lincoln and Kennedy were better men than Bush... people weren't afraid to take them out...

4) Maybe the military training is better in the US military but a buddy and I were just laughing the other day about the pathetic unarmed combat training that the Canadian military gets and yes... My skills at physical combat do exceed the piss poor teachings they receive... Also being a pacifist doesn't mean I'm against fighting... it means I'm against unnecessary fighting... there's a big difference.

Peace,
HT

HT~ I really must take issue with you here:

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but no Americans are willing to take that action

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I ask you: how many Canadian and British Prime ministers have been assassinated during the histories of our two countries?

How many US Presidents have been assassinated? and you don't even have to factor in the time?

And it is not that we don't have the guns........... it is because we don't do that sort of thing?

;)

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Originally posted here by nihil
HT~ I really must take issue with you here:



I ask you: how many Canadian and British Prime ministers have been assassinated during the histories of our two countries?

How many US Presidents have been assassinated? and you don't even have to factor in the time?

And it is not that we don't have the guns........... it is because we don't do that sort of thing?

;)

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I also made a comment on that... (the US part of it)... I said they've done it in the past so why not now... What's changed... We haven't done it (in Canada anyways) because we now have our worst prime minister ever and so far he's lowered taxes and talked about the raising the legal age of consent (I'm sure that breaks the hearts of plenty of geeks on the site)...

Who would Canada assassinate... we had an alcoholic who was into talking to the dead... but that's pretty minor... Then we had a prime minister who was bullied by the US into cancelling the Avro Arrow only because it would detect their new (at the time) spy planes... if we had it.. it'd still be a technology to marvel all other technologies in the air (in some aspects)...

Hi HT~

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we now have our worst prime minister ever

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Sorry to have to let you into the secret................... they never get any better............ it is a permanent downwards vortex with no bottom?

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raising the legal age of consent

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You mean raising the age of consenting to taxation to 85?......... sorry, that was the triumph of hope over experience :D

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we had an alcoholic who was into talking to the dead

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Well, as Prime Minister, he had to address Parliament? :p

Avro Arrow ............... superb avionics IMHO!!!!!

//joke

Margaret Thatcher (former Biritish PM) went out to lunch with her cabinet ministers..................

Head waiter asks her what she would like to eat and she says, "a medium rare filet steak"

Waiter says: "And the vegetables, madam?"

She says: "They will have the same as me"

I guess that the reason we don't shoot our politicians is that we cannot take them that seriously? :D

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Margaret Thatcher (former Biritish PM) went out to lunch with her cabinet ministers..................

Head waiter asks her what she would like to eat and she says, "a medium rare filet steak"

Waiter says: "And the vegetables, madam?"

She says: "They will have the same as me"

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^Was from Spitting Image in the early 90's. A program we could really use right now.


Worries me that no one seems bothered that the POTUS is riding roughshod over the laws of his own country.

I've no issues with rounding up suspected terrorists, but you have to put them to trial. You can't just sit on them. I think the rest of the world gets a bit pissed with POTUS stading up and shouting "We are the dmoral minority and we'll spy on you, lock you up, screw round with world trade to benefit ourselves, promote out own Christian fanaticism and generally do what we like and if you don't like it STFU"

That kinda attitude get on yer **** after a bit.

HT is pleading with Americans to take their arms against a government that is out of control? I always took you for the socialist fascist who would come steal my gun if you got enough to believe in your cause. Only the radical fringe think it's time to toss out the government through assassination. Besides all the people that hate bush, don't own guns I bet. The one's who support him for the most part do. Rationalization sure but I bet it's not far off. So we need to convince the masses that people who have been in congress for 30 years need to go, the one's with all the guns that is. They for the most part still pretend GW is acting in the best interest of the US. I believe that GW does, and is blind by his desire to rid the world of people who have been killing civilians since the 60 in mass numbers. I don't even car that most of Gitmo haven't got a fair trial. I believe in a court of law that most would be tossed out, that is why they haven't been on trial. I mean how are you going to convict someone of a crime that was found in a compound defending an Al Qaeda post? It's like convicting Canadians in a Nazi camp for murder in WW2? I don't get the international concern. Want to be concerned about something... there are plenty of people dying and being mistreated all across the globe, who aren't associated with groups who make a habit of, as some have put it... blowing **** up.

And as for us sticking our nose in every one's business... stop asking us. Iraq is the exception but many make it a historical point that all the worlds woes are out fault. I believe it's the opposite. The "world" would be a series of kingdoms with very little diversity and corruption and fascism would permeate. And during the first Iraq conflict it was the world pleading for us to do something. The "world" only gets their panties in a knot when it doesn't benefit them. Basically we are used. So who is evil? The puppet or the puppet masters?

We can't take a piss without the "world" plastering it up in technicolor television. Everyone is so concerned about our current administration. Yet they protect the government of corrupt Ha mas leaders in Palestine. Crazy people. "You MUST respect and acknowledge the elected government of Palestine!" The "world" says. While suggesting we dismantle our own democracy. Because it's too slow. DUh. That's the point, not to react on whimsical popular trends. But if things don't change over time maybe you can come kill a few republicans. If the liberals haven't made guns illegal by then. Along with smokin forcing more government on the masses etc.