Ya Gotta Wonder...

Hey Hey,

So I still haven't seen a straight answer... the Israeli soldiers were on Lebanese soil.. now they were on Israeli soil... no one seems to really know...

So what do we know... the Israeli's started killing innocent people by bombing the **** out of their cities... over what... a couple of PoWs?? That seems excessive... but that's life... so what are you going to do about it.... so then I'm reading the paper today (Toronto Star... seems a lot of Torontonians don't like it... but it's a decent read)...

So first thing I read... it's about the FBI Directors visit to Canada.... apparently we have 10 FBI agents working in Canada... two of them here in Toronto (prolly just to watch me :D)... Anyways... he said our terrorism laws were too lax... that we should be more like the American terror laws which "require a lower threshold of proof"... Maybe it's just me but my law classes and times spent in front of the Ontario Supreme Court lead me to believe in a couple of terms like "burden of proof" and "beyond a reasonable doubt". The biggest being... innocent until proven guilty... So now I've gotta wonder... what does proven guilty mean... Well here it means beyond a reasonable doubt... but apparently our threadhold of proof is a little too high... So what exactly does "innocent until proven guilty" mean to the America... I'm guessing it's beyond an unreasonable doubt... or perhaps.. "you were arrested, you must be guilty"... perhaps Canada has it wrong and it's "guilty until proven innocent"... Any Americans want to speak up on this? I promise not to turn it into a war of insults... I'm really curious... I always considered proof to be a fairly concrete, static, constant of sorts... apparently I've been wrong...

The next thing I read is about the UN security counsil and their debates on what to do in the middle east... It amazed me that while "numerous" countries are calling for a ceasefire... the United States is against that... saying these attacks should continue until the two soldiers are released.... So let me get this straight? The US cares more about two Israeli shoulders that were captured (it's called capture during War, not kidnapping) when they may or may not have been on enemy soil... than they do about 25000 of their own?? Again... I'd love to have an American (or many Americans) speak up on this..

Lastly... I decide to find more information on just whose soil these soldiers were on and I come across some interesting things on the US Embassy website... It seems that initially the Embassy had informed their citizens that they would have to pay the government back for their evacuation (this was on the 15th) on the 19th they proclaimed that citizens would no longer have to reimburse them... however it took a public outcry for this to happen... I have to wonder about this... does the US Government really have that little respect for its own citizens that it would force them to pay to be evacuated from war-torn nations... I haven't heard of a single other country even considering this... I find it really funny that the US Government was so concerned about money considering that they give $3 Billion annually to Isreal... www.adc.org/IB85066.pdf%2BCRS%2BIssue%2BBrief%2BIB85066,%2BIsrael;%2BU.%2BS.%2BForeign%2BAssistance.&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1]notes here[/url]

Anyways yeah.... it's late... I have lots of work to do.. but those things really blew my mind and I had to comment and get some feedback.

Peace,
HT

Hmmmm,

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that we should be more like the American terror laws which "require a lower threshold of proof"

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I didn't think that they required any threshold of proof, given that people are being incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay and various banana republic prisons without charge or trial?

Hell, they are not going to gather any more "evidence" at this stage so either charge them and lose or just shoot the buggers as I am sure they are regretting not having done in the first instance?

HT:

Want some cheese with that whine?

Stick to computers... At least you have some modicum of credibility left on that subject.

5 opinions that nobody cares about anymore (and that are, to be honest, pretty petty) and something you proclaim to be fact ("it's called capture during War, not kidnapping"), but isn't... it's going downhill fast, HT, from "arrogant with a valid argument here and there" to "extremely arrogant and full of bragging without merit".

We should all ignore it... they say it goes away that way.

Here's the way I see it. There is no credible Lebanese government.
The southern half of the country is controlled by these Hezbolah guys,
and they nabbed the Israeli soldiers. The government in Beirut shrugs
and says "we can't control what they do".

Either you are the government or you aren't. If you are,
you police the border and prevent incidents like this. If you aren't,
then this is a lawless territory with a people incapable of self rule,
and some foreign power will come in and establish law and order.
What better candidate for that job than the offended neighbor,
who is unable to live in peace because Lebanon is a launch pad for
repeated attacks (and this isn't the first time this chit has happened)

China would not permit their neighbors to behave this way. Neither
would Canada.
:cool:

I think the US gov. should take notes on israels response. At the time the soilders were "captured" war had not been openly declared. Lebanons gov. was infiltrated by a known terrorist org.

Personally any "innocent" killed in either Lebanon or Beirut deserves an automatic Darwin award since that particular part of the world has spent more time at war than they have not since recorded history.

My goal here was to have a discussion without bringing my opinions on America into it and rather to garner others opinions... I thought I'd done that fairly well..


Kudos to nihil (whom I'd say was the one to attack the US this time :) ), rcgreen and spamdies for actually attempting a conversation..

Tiger and Neg: What do you have against discussing this??

Tiger: Where was I whining? I'm questioning things and what those that believe/support these issues to discuss them with me... Where's the harm in that? That's what Cosmos is for..

Neg: The majority of what I wrote is fact... There's plenty of merit and validity in what I posted... so I really don't see where you're coming from...

nihil: While I agree with you... to come out and say that would only make me more Anti-American and cause more people to attack me for attempting to start up a discussion... I'm actually surprised no one else wants to discuss this..

rcgreen: Fair enough... but do you really condone your government saying that Israel should not agree to a ceasefire??

spamdies: The US should take notes??? you're saying the US Should be more agressive than it already is?? or ...

Peace,
HT

HT:

Your "whining" was yet to come... When _you_ start any conversation where you question anything America says or does, (and in this case America's friend, ally and also most hated country in the world), it becomes a simple knee jerk reaction for some of us to interpolate where the conversation is intended to go... and we will be right the majority of the time.

Tyler... Ask yourself this question and, if you wish, answer it here... Why is this happening now?

When you get the right answer you will understand why almost every question you asked in your original post is irrelevant.

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Originally posted here by rcgreen
Here's the way I see it. There is no credible Lebanese government.
The southern half of the country is controlled by these Hezbolah guys,
and they nabbed the Israeli soldiers. The government in Beirut shrugs
and says "we can't control what they do".

Either you are the government or you aren't. If you are,
you police the border and prevent incidents like this. If you aren't,
then this is a lawless territory with a people incapable of self rule,
and some foreign power will come in and establish law and order.
What better candidate for that job than the offended neighbor,
who is unable to live in peace because Lebanon is a launch pad for
repeated attacks (and this isn't the first time this chit has happened)

China would not permit their neighbors to behave this way. Neither
would Canada.
:cool:

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1) Agreed.


2) About Guantanamo Bay, they were enemy combatants--"red-handed". They don't wear uniforms that belong to a soverign power, so you can't slap them on the wirst and say, "go home". They're terrorists with a gun, not a bomb; thus making it very difficult to pin-point an exact moment for a precise charge--even though guilt is in extreme. In a criminal trial--difficult to gather evidence on a concrete charge, even if they were SHOOTING all manners of weapons with lethal intent, and consipiring to do harm to eveyone in proximity (be it US soldier or innocent bystander).

They are not US citizens and weren't on US soil, so arn't applicable to US law--nor are the subject to Geneva (imo) beause they don't belong to a nation. If you ask me, they should be extradited to Iraq for trial there, or proper Iraqi officials sent to Cuba to charge them there.


3) I garuntee that anyone over there working for the US government or aid workers did not pay a dime getting out. Those US civillians there were so on their own terms, money, and most importantly risk. They chose to be there, not the US government. The responsibility falls on them to plan their vacations and residencies more intelligently. I don't see why I or the minimum wage family with 2 kids should pay money for their ignorance.

Also, notice how brutally the media attacked the evacuation process? Then, notice how quickly their tune changed once they started polling. Oops! The large majority of US citizens polled believed that attempts were good, or at worst--sufficient. Thanks for being always fair and always impartial Media. At least they stopped attacks, even if the Media is too infaliable and pompous to ever apologize.

It's SO easy to talk. Those critics don't have a damn clue what it takes to move 25,000 scattered, untrained, uncoordinated, panicked people out of a warzone with only a few days warning and no resources anywhere within thousands of miles.


4) I laugh every time people look yet again to the US for answers. People once more look to, ask for, demand that the US do "something" while idly twiddling their thumbs. Wait a second, I thought nobody wanted the "Great Satan" to interlope yet again. I thought the US wasn't supposed to police the world? I have not heard a single "talking head", news program, or ANY media outlet demand UN action, or why the UN isn't doing enough.

I think Isreal is doing a fine job cleaning up that mess all by themselves. Yes, they used "kidnapped" soldiers as an excuse to retaliate in this conflict. However:
a) refer to RCGreen's post
b) Israel has decades of "excuses" to do such enforcement
c If the UN (as always) will not inforce its own edicts without the USA doing 90% of the work, it's only right that Israel should.
d To clean up any mess, you need to get your hands dirty.

I tried my best not to rant, but I think it was in vain. Apologies.

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Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
HT:

Your "whining" was yet to come... When _you_ start any conversation where you question anything America says or does, (and in this case America's friend, ally and also most hated country in the world), it becomes a simple knee jerk reaction for some of us to interpolate where the conversation is intended to go... and we will be right the majority of the time.

Tyler... Ask yourself this question and, if you wish, answer it here... Why is this happening now?

When you get the right answer you will understand why almost every question you asked in your original post is irrelevant.

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I still say I don't whine.. I may insult but I don't whine... I actually want legit answers to these questions... I want to know if the Citizens of the US actually stand behind their president when he says, "Even though there are over 100,000 foreign nationals there and even though 25,000 of them are our citizens... don't stop firing missiles and rockets"... I also want to know if Americans really think that proof should have "thresholds" or if that's the government.

As for the why is this happening now... these posts... or what's happening in the middle east... If it's the middle east, I think it's because the Israeli's are upset that two of their soldiers were caught on the wrong side of the border (regardless of what the majority of news sources say... that's my belief)... If it's these posts.. I think it's because I've finally made valid statements about inhumane actions coming from Bush and you guys don't like it so instead of discussing it you insult..


Evil Moo:

2 -- That's your opinion of that... Some of us still believe in evidence and proof in order to hold someone

3 -- The attempts NOW being made are good, sending over boats to gather the people is the right move... However both US and Canada acted behind every other nation... As for the "why should we help them" statement... We just had that discussion here today... Image you're a few years older and your child is over there... backpacking through the middle east or something... You'd want the government to leave them??? Neg, you always attack me for some of my past comments regarding "a dead American for every dead Iraqi"... well how would you feel if you had children over there.. or other family members over there... Would you want the country to sit idly by? EvilMoo: You don't want to pay the small sum of money to rescue these people but you're ok with your country giving 3 Billion in Aid to Israel every year?

4 -- I don't think it's a matter of people wanting the US to act (based on what I've read and seen and my opinions)... I want the US to stop pushing this war on... I'm reminded of seeing a guy being jumped... Most nations are like that guys girlfriend, begging the attackers to stop... while the US is standing there cheering the fight on and occasionally throwing their own punches.

Peace,
HT

This was bound to happen and the abduction of the two soldier's was the proverbial "straw" that broke the camels back (appropro eh!), ever since Israel left with their tails between their legs (according to the Hezbollah) in 2000, the south of Lebanon has been a crisis waiting to happen.The UN security forces positioned in that sector were incompetant in reining in the Iranian backed terrorists that were backed at one time by the Syrians, Isreal gave the democratically elected Lebanon Government 6yrs to rid this pestering festation, they failed in this task and now they want Israel to pull back.Right.....Israel have stated, if the Government of Lebanon can take back control of the South then Israel will pull back and stop, the ball is squarely in their court...


I believe the US position is the correct one, they have always backed Israel since 1947, and they aint going to stop now because France and other's say they should..the UN is corrupt, everyone forgets that that the Arab world has yet to fully embrace the fact that Israel is a sovereign Nation unto itself and therefore has every right to defend itself.

It would be no different if Mexico suddenly decided to lob a few rockets into Laredo, and sit back and rely on the UN to step in if the US lobbed a few back Lol....right.... :rolleyes:

I believe what is coming is a combined effort to finally stamp out the Syrians and Iranians, or at least crush the Hamas and Hezbollah and get it done....the Israeli's have had to live day after day with this crap from Southern Lebenon, they are finally fed up....and as Bush stated the country of Lebanon since kicking the Syrian's out has grown into a small democratic state and this may help them fully get there, if the terrorist's are taken out...

As for rescuing nationals, it should be inherent that the responsible Governments try to assist in the evacuation of their people, if I am not mistaken, they have probably paid their share of taxes too, and it's not that much of a cost to send in Naval ships, they are there anyway's and all they are doing is ferrying them to Cyprus 150 miles away....it's not like some mass exodus fleeing along roads or any exit....these evacuation methods that the embassies or consulates will be doing have allready been planned long before this incident, maybe because of the recent peaceful times there, they probably didn't realise the amount of people stuck there. As for Canadian's being there, I would bet the majority are of Lebanese descent and this is the time of year they all go back to Lebanon for a couple of Months vacation.They fully understand the risks of going back each year.

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If it's the middle east, I think it's because the Israeli's are upset that two of their soldiers were caught on the wrong side of the border

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And there is the proof of your naivety...

This is occurring in the middle east right now because the G8 summit was about to tell Iran to organize themselves or start walking down the "Iraqi Road". They didn't want that process to start because it restricts the time they have to get themselves a deliverable nuke so they needed a diversion. What better diversion than to take your "paid lackey" aka. Hezbollah, and make Israel start throwing their weight around. Since the UN is so anti semite it was obvious that the front page stories would be about Israel not Iran. Mission accomplished with the possible side effect of starting a major conflict in the region that pulls in the USA thus confirming it's "Great Satan" image... As to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers being the perfect "trigger" - think back, or google if you are too young, to the Israeli airman some 20 years ago... I couldn't have organized this better myself... if I tried... It's just soooo perfect...

You need to start looking at things as part of "a whole" rather than individual "incidents"... You'll never be good at computer security if you don't... ;)

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Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
And there is the proof of your naivety...

This is occurring in the middle east right now because the G8 summit was about to tell Iran to organize themselves or start walking down the "Iraqi Road". They didn't want that process to start because it restricts the time they have to get themselves a deliverable nuke so they needed a diversion. What better diversion than to take your "paid lackey" aka. Hezbollah, and make Israel start throwing their weight around. Since the UN is so anti semite it was obvious that the front page stories would be about Israel not Iran. Mission accomplished with the possible side effect of starting a major conflict in the region that pulls in the USA thus confirming it's "Great Satan" image... As to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers being the perfect "trigger" - think back, or google if you are too young, to the Israeli airman some 20 years ago... I couldn't have organized this better myself... if I tried... It's just soooo perfect...

You need to start looking at things as part of "a whole" rather than individual "incidents"... You'll never be good at computer security if you don't... ;)

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That's your opinion on why this is happening... interesting... but I disagree...

The middle east has always been war torn... no one can dispute that... but I'd like to believe a relatively fragile equalibrium was being maintained... With the "capture" of the two soldiers the equalibrium was upset... and in 20 years the rest will be history...

If I looked at things as a whole then I'd be spouting off too many conspiracy theories and I'd just get myself called Anti-American again...

As for the Israeli Airman... All I've learned is that the Israeli government is willing to release known terrorists in order to save drug lords but refuses to work to bring home their own military http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2005/101605a.htm

Peace,
HT

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Originally posted here by HTRegz
EvilMoo: You don't want to pay the small sum of money to rescue these people but you're ok with your country giving 3 Billion in Aid to Israel every year?

4 -- I don't think it's a matter of people wanting the US to act (based on what I've read and seen and my opinions)... I want the US to stop pushing this war on... I'm reminded of seeing a guy being jumped... Most nations are like that guys girlfriend, begging the attackers to stop... while the US is standing there cheering the fight on and occasionally throwing their own punches.

Peace,
HT

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Actually, yes. I am ok with sending 3 billion to Isael every year. It's not really that I object to having the money spent, it's that they ridicule the government for not saving them from their own stupidity and poor choices. It's the principle of the thing. If they quietly accepted the aid, I wouldn't have thought anything of it. Also, much like Dalek's comment, most of those over there are of either Lebonese decent, or originally from the area but migrated. They more than anyone are aware of the risks, and took them anyway. Not only that, but any of them could have left the country before any of this mounted. They chose to keep them and their loved ones in danger, yet they cast away their own blame onto someone else. How insolent!

(As you might expect) I can't agree with that analogy in the slightest. I believe the official stance of the US has been, "Israel has the right to defend itself, however we wish that it would show restraint and be mindful of the fragile democracy in Lebanon." or something to that direct effect. A far cry from seeding violence, and even further from throwing "ocassional punches".

I'll coincide my own analogy with yours. An assailent getting his arse handed to him by the innocent man he repeatedly tried to stab to no avail. The policemen then gather around and meekly tell the defender he's done enough, while passively looking at others to step in even though they have the full power and responsibility to do so.

HT~

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nihil: While I agree with you... to come out and say that would only make me more Anti-American and cause more people to attack me for attempting to start up a discussion... I'm actually surprised no one else wants to discuss this..

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I am not anti-American, in fact I am extremely pro-American. My concern is rather that they have a government that seems to have "lost the plot" in some areas?

It is the kind of mortification that you feel when you see a very good friend make a fool of themselves in public? They are wrong, and you know that they are.

If Guantanamo Bay and the shipping of captives from banana republic to banana republic were to happen in the UK it would literally bring the government down. And that party would have no chance of re-election for at least 50 years (just look at our Liberal Party and how they have suffered for their mistakes in Ireland...............over 80 years ago?).

We may not have a written constitution, but we have a damn fine idea of democracy and the due process of law.

I would simply ship them back to Afghanistan, to a nice little kangaroo court of my choosing................. if "the locals" deal with it, then it has to be OK..............in fact, I would never have brought them out of Afghanistan in the first place ;)

Anyone remember the IRA terrorist cell in Gibraltar?..................our SAS boys rubber-bagged the lot of them............ no messing about, just deal with it..................hell, they weren't there on their summer vacation, were they?

As for Israel, they are being shot at...............they shoot back? I see no problem there. If you cannot stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen.

As for the US, they are not exactly stirring up the Israelis to cause trouble are they?............ Iran and Syria certainly are stirring up the $h1t, and those countries are where you will find Saddam's WMD if you are really interested.

The French and the Russians......................they are just looking after their armaments industries?...............................

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4 -- I don't think it's a matter of people wanting the US to act (based on what I've read and seen and my opinions)... I want the US to stop pushing this war on... I'm reminded of seeing a guy being jumped... Most nations are like that guys girlfriend, begging the attackers to stop... while the US is standing there cheering the fight on and occasionally throwing their own punches.

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First I thought you were not going to go the way of insults, thats a passive aggressive one.

Anyway, since you ask. I beleive that the way Israel is handling the conflict is superb. It appears that for them talking about the issues is done, didnt work, and now its time for the metal to meet the meat... It looks like to me they are at war not a political convevntion. Their not posting troops to guard a rock concert. If all they did was position their troops and make them play 'rent a cop' then it might as well be the US doing the job...

No I don't promote war, war is a horrible thing. But when it comes down to it, when at war, destroy the other guy, no quarter given.

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If all they did was position their troops and make them play 'rent a cop' then it might as well be the US doing the job...

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heheheheheheh

I think every country has the right to defend themselves....

the lebanese government should be reigning in the Hezbolah..and if they cant...Israel will do it for them.

Personally...I still dont get these religous wars....my god is better then your god shite



MLF

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Originally posted here by spamdies
First I thought you were not going to go the way of insults, thats a passive aggressive one.

Anyway, since you ask. I beleive that the way Israel is handling the conflict is superb. It appears that for them talking about the issues is done, didnt work, and now its time for the metal to meet the meat... It looks like to me they are at war not a political convevntion. Their not posting troops to guard a rock concert. If all they did was position their troops and make them play 'rent a cop' then it might as well be the US doing the job...

No I don't promote war, war is a horrible thing. But when it comes down to it, when at war, destroy the other guy, no quarter given.

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I'll answer both you and EvilMoo in the same post ... first.. I don't call that an insult... or even a passive agressive insult... that's my analogy...

Bush said to israel "Don't stop attacking until they release the two soldiers" That's egging on the fighting... that's definately not saying "ok he's had enough" but not really do anything... That's more like the rest of the Security Council who's asking for a ceasefire in my opinion..

EvilMoo: I also fail to see how you could call Israel "Innocent" in all of this..

I agree with mlf that every country has a right to defend themselves... This isn't defense however... it's aggression... now... There's a big difference...

Peace,
HT

I think they would listen to Bush, just as much as they listened to the UN, or anyone else for that mater. And by the way, I have never seen anyone standing around a fist fight says " cant you just talk about it" mabey they will find a point when they can talk. Until then, I just only hope the "innocents" in beruit heeded the warning to get out, that was given.

http://www.coxandforkum.com/

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This isn't defense however... it's aggression...

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HT:

Since 9/11 you have clearly shown that you have neither the intellect nor the intention of _ever_ being able to distinguish the difference between the two.

Your problem stems from the lack of education the youth receive today... Particularly the teaching of critical thought and, dare I say it, history - even history that takes place as we speak. You conveniently ignore the fact that the Israeli's have withdrawn from the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and South Lebanon in the last 5-6 years on the assumption that their actions will lead to a cessation of hostilities in each region. You conveniently forget that the Palastinians dug a tunnel a half a mile long from their side of a border to the Israeli side to kidnap the initial Israeli soldier for no apparent reason. You conveniently forget that, as Israel reacted to that unprovoked attack on their sovereignty, Hezbollah chose to attack from Lebanon and kidnap two other Israeli's despite the fact that what was taking place with the Palastinians had nothing to do with and incurred no territorial incursions in Lebanon. You conveniently forget that, under International Law, any country has the _right_ to defend it's citizens and it's sovereign territory in any way it sees fit as long as it's acts do not cause physical harm to other sovereign nations. You also conveniently forget that your beloved United Nations condemned Hezbollah and demanded it's disarmament in a "resolution", (1551 I believe), several years ago and have done nothing to enforce it. You conveniently forget that just the other day, despite Hezbollah proclaiming responsibility for numerous terrorist acts, (attacks on US embassies across the world, attack on the US Marine Barracks, several aircraft hijacked or blown from the sky etc. etc. etc), your precious *****ing United *****ing Nations just said that they don't really have enough evidence to determine whether or not Hezbollah are a terrorist organization.

Tyler... You don't "conveniently forget"... There are two possible reasons for your stances regarding the USA's foreign policy and war...

1. You know exactly what you are saying and have no moral basis nor fibre. Thus you are a lying SOB stirringn the sh1t for the sake of it.

2. You are a retard... Dumber than sh1t... and spouting your unadulterated crap under the misplaced impression that people believe the same as you.

It really doesn't matter which it is... Your incessant juvenile, uneducated, emotional outbursts have shown me that, while you _might_ have a future in computers, any attention given to you shoud be limited by those who's IQ exceeds about 85....

ouch. no comment.

That's all and well Tiger... but I say you're the one with no clue..

Have you never heard statements such as "Let bygones be bygones", "What's done is done", and "Leave it in the past"

My opinion on this would most likely differ if Israel had chosen to only target Hezbollah controlled South Lebanon... but no.. they are targetting everywhere... it's really getting hard for me to not attack the war mongering nature of Americans... Bush has come out and essentially said "Give war a chance"... wtf is that... Rice is on her way there on Sunday... and will not ask for a ceasefire...

Tiger you may think you are wise beyond your years... but common sense and human decency seem to elude you...

A terrorist cell attacks America... America wipes out countries... A terrorist cell kidnaps two Israeli soldiers who may or may not have been on enemy soild and Israel wipes out a country.... and you have no problem with this?? You don't see a loss of humanity in all these?

Prime Minister Harper detoured his plane leaving the G8 meetings to fairy people back to Canada... I haven't heard anything about Air Force one landing to pick up people...

I'll be honest... I started this thread with ulterior motives.. I wanted to see if a single American was humane enough to be against what Israel is doing... that answer is apparently no... I just can't understand how you support it...

Israel has more humanity at least they are warning civilians in the southern portion of Lebanon to evacuate to more northern points... but then their humanity goes to hell because they turn around and attack those northern points..


Tiger: How did they ever let you adopt a child... and do you already have a weapon in that child's hands... training them to go and kill?

We're on the brink of a Third World War and you agree that a ceasefire should't occur??? To me that sounds like supporting the outbreak of a third world war... something I definately cannot understand... You talk about it because you were young and stupid and served your country and came back alive... How are you going to feel when your adopted child is old enough and serves in the military and dies in on-going war because today you wouldn't support a ceasefire? Will you feel as though you are to blame? Because if I lost a child in a war and all of you are saying "**** a ceasefire, fight it out"... I'd definately blame you...


As for me not knowing the difference I know it quite well...

WTC was destroyed -- aggression
America Assembles troups -- defense
American invades other countries -- aggression
America is proven wrong regarding WMDs and continues invasion -- Enhanced aggression..

Everyone says all I do in these posts is attack Americans... that's not true... well it is... but I can't be blamed... Tiger Shark is doing the same to me.. He's attacking the belief in a ceasefire... the belief in peace...

Regardless of what you war mongers might thing... peace is not found down the barrel of a gun

I did hear a quote I rather enjoyed today though... "Israel going back into South Lebanon is like America going back into vietnam"...

Peace,
HT

HT, you did nothing but prove Tigershark's points. If anything else, only proved that you're also naive and ignorant beyond reason. You refuse to analyse or learn beyond your own preconcieved notions. This statement only proves that:

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Originally posted here by HTRegz
I'll be honest... I started this thread with ulterior motives.. I wanted to see if a single American was humane enough to be against what Israel is doing... that answer is apparently no... I just can't understand how you support it...

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You live in a powerful and concentric bubble HT; North America >>> Canada >>> Naiviety. Take a step outside of each as well as the sheltered perspectives you boast.

While there is no doubt that this post is offensive to you, I honestly feel and bare no malice. I truely and genuinely pity you. Please, if you overlooked this article ( http://www.coxandforkum.com/ ) please view it. It's simple, truthful, and even has an illustration that can't be more clear.

Hmmmm,

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"Israel going back into South Lebanon is like America going back into vietnam"...

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Well it certainly wasn't an Israeli who said that :rolleyes: They will go in with professionals, who believe that they are fighting for the very existence of their nation, not a shower of doped up college kid conscripts.

12 weeks at boot camp is not adequate training for counter insurgency operations. Just look at the record of the Australian and South Korean forces in the Vietnam conflict?.................they were professionals ;)

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I just can't understand

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That's your problem... the word "can't"... because you can but you "won't"... because it doesn't fit the political leanings you think you should have... so anything that doesn't fit that is inconceivable to you and you refuse to actually think about those ideas.

Yes, a third world war fought right now is the right thing... Why, you ask in shock? Simple! But _you_ need to decide why... because no-one else will ever be able to teach you anything... You know it all already... :rolleyes:

ok...now i am upset...

Tiger?

why can't this be discussed? why can't a techy have a political opinion? and being techy means not having any human emotions?

Have you ever lost someone in a terrorist attack? Have you ever got a bomb concussion?

You are sitting in your nice cool room and expecting others to suppress their voices.


Negative?

did you do a public survey to come up with the bright quote that Nobody is interested in the topic?


anyways coming to the real debate.

The middle east is burning right now due to the synergy between the iranian regime and the hizbollah

The recent G8 summit was supposed to adopt broad scale resolutions against the iranian regime, however they could only issue a token resolution and the would have to meet again for deciding about Iran and possibly the other rogue nation-north korea.

The point not to be missed is, that it is Israel fighting. For the US the reason for fighting arent important.

The law is.If Israel fights, US would support it. There would also be boudless support from its still-indebted-from-World War II puppy-The UK.

Thats the way it has been and would always be. The rest of the world would also stand by and let the destruction happen.

At the same time, there is also a need for the US govt. to come clean with its shady partner countries like-pakistan.

Wanna see what they can do? find out about the recent mumbai commuter train blasts.

Ever got any of your dear ones in half piece? upper or lower portion..doesnt matter...

Try visiting kashmir sometime, u'll find grenade attacks happening every alternate day.

Pages could be written about these matters...

Peace

Chizra:

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Have you ever lost someone in a terrorist attack? Have you ever got a bomb concussion?

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I suppose you need to know the characters involved in the conversation before you start spouting off... I was ten years in the military... and you were... what... sitting in your revolving chair? HT is a habitual USA attacker and pacifist... This is why I don't listen to what he says any more... because it is always the damned same.

... and I can see you come from a nice open minded background too... Got a little anti-British sentiment floating around there do we? :rolleyes:

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Negative?
did you do a public survey to come up with the bright quote that Nobody is interested in the topic?

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That's not at all what I said :rolleyes:
I'd explain, but I'm afraid all attempts would be futile...

It seems like your reading skills are as terrible as your writing skills ;)

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We're on the brink of a Third World War and you agree that a ceasefire should't occur??? To me that sounds like supporting the outbreak of a third world war... something I definately cannot understand... You talk about it because you were young and stupid and served your country and came back alive... How are you going to feel when your adopted child is old enough and serves in the military and dies in on-going war because today you wouldn't support a ceasefire? Will you feel as though you are to blame? Because if I lost a child in a war and all of you are saying "**** a ceasefire, fight it out"... I'd definately blame you...

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Well it appears the debate is over... First, if some one had took out a certian facist regiem in the begining, there wouldnt have been a ww2... Talking and politics and all the UN's in world can not resolve everyissue, and I bet they wont play a major role in this one...

So really, every morning if your neighbor ran up and punched you in the face when you went out to get your paper, you would just want to talk to them about it? what time does your paper show up?

Yep same ol same ol stuff, personal attacks instead of discourse and of course in Cosmos someone greens Negative, hhhmmm the loonies are indeed in control of this asylum....

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You live in a powerful and concentric bubble HT; North America >>> Canada >>> Naiviety. Take a step outside of each as well as the sheltered perspectives you boast.

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Evil Moo not everyone here in Canada holds the same views as HT, so be a little more specific when labeling someone. Some people on this site have a habit of generalizations and are short on specifics....


TS

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Got a little anti-British sentiment floating around there do we

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Do you think he means everyone in the UK, or just Blair?

It really is too bad, adults can't discuss things in a more mature way, but instead lower themselves to each other's level, instead of concentraing on the debate at hand, this issue is starting to heat up and will involve a lot of other people before long.

We are reaping what we have sowed in the middle east, and yes TS the UK can be held partly responsible for what is now happening over there.We all are for not learning about the people there, I cannot grasp the concept of "Democracy" for people who live by Tribal rules/customs, this is why it won't work in Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan/Pakistan/Syria. The only reason there is a fragile democratic government in Lebanon right now is because of the heavy influence of Christians.

The Arabs will never fully embrace Christianity so they associate Democracy with Christianity, and that is where the problem sits.

The Israeli's are not blameless in this area of the World, but they have shown remarkable restraint when it comes to dealing with the neighbours who constantly make it known that they will see Israel destroyed, with this, it's no wonder that they will defend themselves.

Truly, if Israel wanted to, but are held back by the US, they could sort this entire mess out in a couple of weeks, if they were allowed to unleash their weaponry against Iran/Syria, the issue would be resolved as they do have Nuclear Capabilities, so what the Arabs don't realise or maybe they do, is the fact thay haven't been crushed by the Israeli's is probably due to the alliance Israel has with the US, so Iran/Syria can in some part thank the US for keeping the Israeli's away from them.

<intermezzo>
I just typed the solution to all world problems in this quick reply box, but I accidentally hit "reset form" instead of "submit reply". Can you ****ing believe it? I'm not gonne type the whole thing again though.

Tiger..

I suppose you need to know the characters involved in the conversation before you start spouting off... I was ten years in the military... and you were... what... sitting in your revolving chair? HT is a habitual USA attacker and pacifist... This is why I don't listen to what he says any more... because it is always the damned same.

... and I can see you come from a nice open minded background too... Got a little anti-British sentiment floating around there do we?


________

Tiger,

Anyone reading would understand that i was stopping you from stopping the thread starter. Now that's not spouting off! Thats entitelement to opinion!

Military? Maybe you got concussed, but u never answered my first question...were any of your family member killed in a terrorist attack?

And btw, how does being in the military help understand world problems better. The military is dictated by the politicians.

As far as i know, any soldier would always think of his country first. The more common variety i mean!

The anti-british allegation? that's again a normal reaction! I would'nt dwell on it since arguing with a bone headed ex-military guy is like trying to pick up mercury by a fork


I wish i was as cocksure of anything as you are of everthing!

:rolleyes:

Yep... I was right... The know it all, be nice to the ****er that will cut your throat rather than offend him, appease those who would bully and oppress, every man has a decent streak in them, think with my heart rather than my head if I ever bother to even think dimwits have taken over here...

Time to move on I think... There's nothing left for anyone with sense here.

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Why has anti-Semitism become the new mantle of leftist politics? If the Left sees itself as the enemy of oppression in all its forms, why has it so disastrously failed to recognize and confront the hatred of Jews within its own ranks?

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http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=9926

Indeed. That sums up the present topic nicely.
:cool:

Anti-semitism?

If we were truly anti semitic we would wipe out everyone in the middle east, Jewish, Palestinian, Arab, Iaqi, Irani alike. When did anti-semitic become anti-jewish?

A previous remark about America's involvement in Viet Nam "tickled" me as well. America didn't falter in Viet Nam because of conscripts, it faltered because of it's senior military and people like Westmoreland, McNamara and political spinelessness (probable not a real word) at home.

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When did anti-semitic become anti-jewish?

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"Anti-semitic" has always meant "anti-jewish" exclusively.
It has never meant anything else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

Have to agree about Vietnam. I read a book by David Hackworth
called Steel my Soldiers' Hearts. He came in and took command of a group
of guys that were performing poorly. When told that they were a bunch of losers,
Hackworth's reply was "these are the same sort of men who have fought and
won all of our wars." Apparently, with good leadership, they went on to become
some of the baddest MOFOs in Vietnam. Get the book.
:cool:

I would refer you to Websters dictionary for the definition of Semite which is a person of Afro-Asian origin, which is not exclusively a Jew, nationalities listed were Jews and Arabs. Of course Webster agrees with you on Anti-semitic

I'll look for the book. I've tried to make sense of that era, another book won't hurt.