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(gotten from digg)
it's truly one of the most comprehensive distros... everyone should try it
http://thelinuxadvocate.blogspot.com/
i guess i'm posting this because w/ the advent of more restictive M$ pricing and licensing i feel 'normal ppl' now have a valid choice...
Hey Hey,
There's still nothing wrong with Windows... the licensing changes aren't nearly as bad as everyone keeps making it seem... Pricing may be up there a bit... but it's a one time expenditure and there are different, lower cost versions that you can buy... OS X comes with the Mac but you pay more for it...
As for Ubuntu being more popular... This doesn't show that... and I'll have to reply to that blog to tell the guy why he's a fool. All this means is that there have been more searches... It could just mean that more "normal people" (as you put it) are using it and requiring help... so it's being searched for more... This doesn't mean it's more popular or that more people use it...
Ubuntu is like SuSE and only slightly better than most other Linux distributions.. in that it is geared for two types of people.. Person A is highly technical... Person B knows nothing about computers and emails her grandchildren and surfs the web for recipes... The inbetween people.. there still isn't a Linux for them... Linspire might actually come closest... Linux still has a ways to go...
Look at the guys blog name.. his view is obviously skewed and I'm sure he knows what his results actually mean... nothing... he's just trying to bolster the Linux following...
Disclaimer: While this was typed on Windows XP it's sitting next to a Ubuntu laptop... At home there's a SuSE Desktop, a Ubuntu Desktop and a Ubuntu Laptop... (and one more Windows XP and an OS X).. so I'm by no means Anti-Linux... just against propaganda..
Check out the Handicapped Computerist if you really want to see propaganda.. You can find my reply to his BS and a link to his site on my blog posting regarding it -- http://www.computerdefense.org/?p=131
Peace,
HT
I’ve tried every major distro out there and none beside Suse (of which I just tried the latest release thanx to gore) can compare in its usability. Linspire will never be truly successful because it has lost it’s OS identity by emulating Windows.
It is PERFECT exactly for the ppl you dispute in your post. Not really for grandmas & not for hackers. Metaphor: Grandmas will stay w/ windows & hackers will keep using BSD, Slack & Deb. In any OS it is important to look @ what it can do & how hard/easy is to set that “what” up. Ubuntu can pretty much do everything Windows can w/ easy setup thanx to synaptic pckg manager, and “automatix” script tool. I is perfect for introducing ppl to Linux w/ out trying to clumsily imitate windows gui and philosophy.
Ubuntu is also a sexy OS. The testing release looks almost as good as Mac X & if you set up XGL or other nex gen GUI it’ll make you want to kiss your monitor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by very_unhappy
What you have done is proved that you are nothing more than another zealot... Which is a shame.. as soon as someone identifies themself as a zealot their operating system opinions are nothing more than opinions..
Ubuntu has plenty of problems that limit it from being a mainstream option..
- WPA Support (still too complicated for the average user)
- Crashes (I spent an afternoon recovering Ubuntu for someone because they had changed their permissions on a file and it could no longer be read to boot the GUI)
- Software Availability.. In a production world OOo != MS Office, Firefox on Linux != Firefox on Windows (On Windows my banking website tables line up beautifully... on Linux the tables don't even line up properly.... on Windows firefox can handle a huge form.. in Linux Firefox will crash if you present it with a textbox that contains >32000 characters)... IM Support... There are plenty of options for Linux but they are not the official options and most of them are lacking a feature or two...
Ubuntu is a great operating system... but it's not ready for the mainstream user yet... and I don't see a need for it to be... it's got it's niche and it works nicely there...
as for you taking "Technical Users" and turning it into "hackers" that shows you're a little kid with no idea... the fact that you insist "hackers" will use BSD, Debian or Slackware again gives us the idea that you have no clue about operating systems... I'm sitting in a Vulnerability Research office.. I see Gentoo, Ubuntu, XP, 2K and OS X... I see some servers running BSD but not workstations...
Grandma's are the ones that will switch... Their grandchildren who are tech savvy will see a great way to keep grandmas PC clean and only require a couple hours of showing her where the basic things are... then she'll be good to go....
I'm not sure what sort of computer users you're dealing with.. but you don't seem to understand any of the roles.
Peace,
HT
Edited by JPnyc: The next post in which you address another member or moderator in that fashion, will be the last on this forum. Thank you.
Nice post HTQuote:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to HTRegz again.
**nokia trembles and runs for cover at the thought of standing in front of very_unhappy**Quote:
Snip.
very_unhappy is soon to become very_very_unhappy I think......
JPnyc ... are you the original "JP"? ... "the founder"
No. I manage all the JM forums.
I wondered the same thing until I saw his sigline link. Oh and JP lives somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by very_unhappy
Most computer users aren't going to give a hoot about "the
advent of more restictive M$ pricing and licensing" as long
Windows is pkg'ed with new PC's. And until a major computer
mfg'er starts marketing and supporting preinstalled Linux systems,
no one will touch MS's monopoly on the desktop. Besides,
consumers will suck up all the new hype about a new, secure
Vista and roll over.
"Ubuntu is also a sexy OS"? You need a new girlfriend, dood.
correct me if i'm wrong, but all that "google trends" graph is showing is that more people search for "ubuntu" rather than "mac osx" on google.com
that does not at all mean its more popular or that more people are using ubuntu than mac, or debian or any other distro.
edit: i just read 'htregz' full first post and saw that he said the same thing, didn't see that when i skimmed the entire thread the first time. my apologies.
Greeting's
ROFL... Man what did you feel when you were compared with JP ... THE FOUNDERQuote:
JPnyc ... are you the original "JP"? ... "the founder"
Probably very insulted! And rigthly so! :D
Not at all, given the same initials and administrating this particular forum, it was a logical question to ask.
Who cares if Ubuntu is gaining in popularity? Ubuntu, along with every other Debian based distro, sucks anyways.
I am always very wary of these "statistics".............MS make claims for XP based on machines being shipped currently, but there is still a very large user base for Windows 2000.
HT~ is on the money IMO, in that these are searches. Ubuntu is relatively new and I guess that a lot of people are just trying it out, which is why they are looking for help.
Honestly, I would not expect this of the old established distros that most probably have a much more experienced userbase.
Similarly, Apple OSes are pretty intuitive, so I would not expect the same degree of traffic there. After all OS X is intended to be sold off the shelf to the general public, just like Windows.
I agree that Linspire seems the closest linux type distro at present, and I don't really see it having any problem with "losing its identity" as it is aimed at a market that couldn't care less?
Just my thoughts:)
Persoanally if I was searching for help with Ubunbtu I would go straight to Google and search from there, however I was needing help with say Windows XP I would first go to microsoft.com and search the site from there.........Once less hit for Windows XP on Google...........
I guess I'll hop in and give my opinion. OPINION.
I don't like Ubuntu. I've used it a few times, and it has potential, but really, I first off don't like no root account by default crap. I also don't really care for it overall though I think, as I said, it does have potential to be somethin, it just isn't there yet to me.
They are going the right way with getting bigger companies to support it on servers a little, but the distro itself really isn't much more than a few less enter key taps during install from Debian.
I Miss Libranet. That was a good Debian based distro that wasn't a copy of it. It had a nice little admin panel, a really good Kernel Recompiling tool, but at the same time had Debian's apt-get system and fit on one or two CDs.
Anyone who's serious about a Linux distro that's actually good for competing with Windows in the Server and desktop area, would be looking at SUSE, maybe RedHat though I don't like them much, and possibly Mandrake.
I don't use Mandrake either but the ease of use has always been there. SUSE gives a good idea of how things could be and ti's not like Novell is going anywhere. They also offer actual support.
For ease of use, I think Linux is actually starting to outdo Microsoft. An example is making a bootable CD.
In Windows it's finding a CD burner program since Windows itself won't do that, and then learning to use it, then burning the thing and hoping you set the write settings.
On SUSE in KDE:
Click on.... I'll use an example:
Click on SlackwareLinux11-disc1.iso
...And you're done. It loads up K3B, K3B checks the MD5sum and then click on burn.
Whoo, hard huh?
installing a printer in linux is 10x faster and easier than windows too.
computer picked up the printer (usb), all that was needed was root's password and it was added.
thats with cups enabled btw.
no drivers or software installation or anything.
Err which Windows OS is that one, as far as I know,all WMP's can burn/copyQuote:
In Windows it's finding a CD burner program since Windows itself won't do that
As for Ubuntu, I only started to learn about linux and found this to be the easiest for me...also the figures may be skewed because when I received my discs, I got 6 of them sort of pass them around type thing..so maybe the numbers aren't factual. But if you read the forums, there is a lot of interest, espescially from people who are considering the move from Windows to Linux...it's called marketing and Ubuntu pushed it out...:cool:
Hi dalek,Quote:
Err which Windows OS is that one, as far as I know,all WMP's can burn/copy
I think he meant an ISO image, windows needs an additonal plugin to do that - something which has irked me for a very long time!
I am no Linux expert but I would have thought that even Linux would need a driver of some kind......Quote:
installing a printer in linux is 10x faster and easier than windows too.
computer picked up the printer (usb), all that was needed was root's password and it was added.
thats with cups enabled btw.
no drivers or software installation or anything.
It may have been included by default so appeared to not actually install it, as in you didn't have to put a driver CD?
Hmmmm,
Dalek has a good point, I distributed a number of Ubuntu CDs. Several of the people have since moved on to other distros, so I think it is used as an entry into the World of Linux?
I always try to load the printer manufacturer's software so as to get the help, troubleshooting, ink levels and head cleaning programs.
As for CD and DVD burners, I have never bought one that did not have the software bundled with it...........at least for whatever flavour of Windows I was running at the time.
It is worth looking at the Distrowatch site. They have a big table of "popularity" and give a clear warning just like HT~ that the results are based on search parameters rather than actual installations and users.
It is very difficult to get a feel for Linux penetration as the users tend to be natural experimenters and have a number of current distros to play with.
Windows is rather more simple because you either have the current version or an obsolete one, and you have a pretty good idea of the number sold.
i'm assuming it has a database of drivers i'm sure, but i've installed a photosmart and scanner/copier all in one printer deal both no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokia
with windows, it needed the cd's for the drivers.
same with my digital canon rebel.
i'm not meaning to sound like a fanboy or zealot, just wanted to make the point as those two were arguing about which one was easier to use & what not.
some things in linux work easier than some people would expect.
i wish i could make a video of adding one of those printers, i was impressed.
Just popping in again to say yes Nokia is correct, I was talking about ISOs. I know Windows Media Player can burn CDs, or at least the version on this XP machine can, as I don't think the one before it could.
Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled thread :)
I’ve used Windows since the 90’s, Red Hat, SUSE, Mandrake, Gentoo, Ubuntu. Out of all of the distros Ubuntu is the fastest and smallest OS. Sure you can tweak things to make any OS faster but out of the box Ubuntu has given good results. It has the best setup tool, Apt. Yast (SUSE) is horribly slow and Yum(Red Hat) tries but doesn’t reach Debain’s Aptitude.
As far as Linux compared to Windows you got to look where they’re coming from. One is driven by money, and it likes to keep parts of its OS secret from the users. The other is free, transparent, and made by a community, just like this one. If anyone who has tried to install Windows without the manufacturers system CDs will tell ya’ it’s a pain to install all the drivers and have Windows functioning correctly with the hardware. This is after the drivers that have been provided by the manufactures through their support sites. Where as in Linux the drivers are recognized by the most of the OS, Ubuntu does this very well. Keep in mind the manufacturers didn’t hand the drivers to Linux community on a plate like they did to Windows.
If major PC manufactures started installing Linux and you’d see a good price difference between a Windows system and a Linux. That’ll be more than enough for consumers to drop Windows. Btw MS Office isn’t that much of a big deal. Look at the Open Office project and with Web2.0 MS Office on systems are going to be the talk of yesterday.
If anyone who doesn’t know what their doing and starts deleting critical files will leave their systems nonfunctional. This is regardless of OS.
Most Linux distros have a 6 month cycle where a new version of the OS comes out every 6 months. Did I mention this was free? Windows doesn’t even come close to it. The best improvements in Windows are actually borrowed from other operating systems. Yet people can’t get over the fact that there are more prospective OS’s than Windows.
I guess I would also be a staunch supporter of an OS if its flaws are what makes my bread money.
Ubuntu is the fastest and smallest? That's strange, Slackware and FreeBSD run circles around it on the same machine.
And Yast being horrible slow... Hmm, that's odd, try shutting off X, it runs faster that way. Also note that FreeBSD has a more advanced package manager than apt.
Wow... This is turning into a My OS has a bigger dick than your OS thread.... That was never my intention when I replied... I tend to be fairly OS Agnostic...
I will reply to people however..
Gore: As for burning CDs... You can drag and drop files to burn them.. for an ISO itself... there are plenty of free burning apps for Windows... Linux does't including burning software either.... Linux distributions (packages of software do)...
I've always found this to be an unfair comparison... Windows is an operating system... it contains the basics and that's it... Linux is an operating system.... it's the kernel, however Linux has come to refer to Linux distributions.... These distributions have all the software you need... however this comes with a cost... Debian Full is how many CDs these days?? and SuSE... 6 CDs (including the Xtras CD).... That's why they contain all the software you need...
As for printer working right away... Sure.. why not... Now think about this.. XP was 2001... When was your printer made... post 2001... that's why drivers aren't included... but the odds are Vista will have the drivers... You can't expect an OS to magically have drivers for software that wasn't around when the CD was pressed...
Now for the issue of a 6 month release cycle vs say Windows...
95, 98, 2000, 2001, 2003 and now 2007... There's a reason it is lengthening... People didn't like it as much when it shortened... Businessses can't afford to constantly buy the latest and greatest software.. That's why they operate on these cycles. This push is to ensure a great product and yes.. there's been major delay this time around... but XP is still a solid operating sytem.. 2003 is a solid server, 2K is still solid on both aspects.. MS has released their planned OS release schedule...
As for Linux distros being on a 6 month release cycle??? Not the mature serious ones.. They would never commit to a timeline like that..
wh0rd: OpenOffice doesn't compare to Microsoft Office from a productivity stand point... and Linux isn't feasible yet in a business environment...
People need to realize that Businesses are Microsofts primary customer... wh0rd had other points but I see no need to address them... He's a linux fanboy plain and simply..... He doesn't get the big picture...
Peace,
HT
One of the points you brought up I want to touch on; Why doesn't Microsoft start including more CDs for Windows to install software people need. Obviously they won't include office stuff as that is a good chunk of cash flow they'd lose, but why not things like built in Cd burning, an AIM, Yahoo and ICQ client (They could include / customize a version of Gaim and just put a label on it about how they don't support it) and they could include a lot more than they do without hurting their cash strong points like Office tools.
I seen Windows Live OneCare on the shelf at best buy the other day so obviosly they are going for more, but things that I named off really wouldn't do anything to their current intake of money as they release MSN free and most of the things I'm talking about are free already, you just download them.
The 6 month release cycle is for people who want the latest of everything without a concern for stability. Regaurdless of what any vendor tells you, software isn't stable in such ashort period of time, that's why Novell doesn't release their business oriented products in that cycle.
Slackware doesn't follow that either, as the last two releases were over a year apart.
Am I the only one who doesn't use Open Office.org? I've used it a few times here and there but I rarely ever use apps in office suites. Unless I have to, which isn't often, I have full paid for copies of Office, Works, Corel, and a few others I install in case I need them.
Think Administration.... Windows is for businesses first.... Linux is for people first.... That's why Linux doesn't make a great investment for the office yet..... and it's something that the Linux people still haven't realized.... As it is some admins dislike that Windows Messenger and the Games are installed with Windows and go back and remove them... For other things.... they are open source GPL... Microsoft can't include them.... If you include GPL'd "stuff" you ahve to release your source code.... MS doesn't want that... Lastly there's licsensing issues... I seem to recall MS wanting to include a PDF reader a few years back.. Adobe wouldn't hear of it... Linux doesn't always walk on the legal side of licensing (which is why some distributions, like SuSE removed MP3 Support at one point)...Quote:
Originally Posted by gore
You also don't work in an office :) ... In my current position Excel is very important for tracking... Previously I've had jobs that I relied heavily on PowerPoint, Word and Access..... OpenOffice.org isn't a mature enough piece of software yet to deal with the stability demands of an office environment.... So things like MS Office, Corel, etc are much better positioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by gore
The games you don't have to install while the Os is being installed, but Windows Messenger, that's just a pain in the ass because of it not being easily removed. For office apps, there are options but most likely someone would be using Microsoft Office running over Wine or something as OpenOffice.org just isn't there yet.
I've actually passed a class for MOUS certification heh. Another area Linux could use improvement is in things like video calsl that MSN Messenger has.
It's very easily removed, paste the following in to the run prompt and it is gone for good:Quote:
but Windows Messenger, that's just a pain in the ass because of it not being easily removed
Couldn't be easier!Code:rundll32 setupapi,InstallHinfSection BLC.Remove 128%SystemRoot%\INF\msmsgs.inf
Or to just stop it running; disable it in the local policy or stop the service starting up.
If you do a custom install of XP instead of the default, you can tell it not to be installed.
Ubuntu is a superb operating system and I just wish I could install it!
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=189966
catalogues the series of disasters I experienced when I tried. When I have time I might bite the bullet and install it as the only OS on my laptop which only has to work until I replace it at christmas anyway.
HiQuote:
Originally Posted by Moira
After you get er up and running, check out this Tut... http://tazforum.**********.com/viewtopic.php?t=2189
;)
"If" I get it up and running. I long since discovered that computers have a lot more persistence and staying power than I do and Ubuntu is wearing me down. I set out to learn more about linux and instead became an expert in reinstalling Windows :(
But I'm not beaten yet and will give it a go!
Why is it the installs don't work?
It's really whatever works for the user, I'm quite happy using my imac I've had mine for 6 months and haven't had any problems I start it up in the morning and it just works the one thing I like about a Mac vs my old Pc is not having so many wires to deal with when it's time to clean in the back of my computer: ethernet cables, video cables, speaker wires, usb wires, cat-5 cables on and on.
I've wanted a Mac for a while for something to toy with but they are so expensive. The Mac Mini is a good step in that direction but I still don't have the extra money so it's on hold still.
gore, that link I posted is probably the best way of explaining the difficulties I've had - I know it's lengthy but then explaining this whole shaggy dog story here would be too :)
PS apologies to people tonight, I've had a long long day and a night out with work so I'm feeling too knackered to think and the same is true for the thread in networking - I will apply some energy to this tomorrow!
Heh you think that's bad? I had to go to the ER, I managed to get a muscle right by my spine messed up to where I hadn't been able to sleep for 2 nights in a row. The Dr was funny though and then he gave me a shot of Dilauded and Valium and then everything was OK lol. I'm not sure how exactly I somehow managed to do that but he said I did a good job screwing it up. Ah well, it stopped hurting enough so I could sleep after those shots. Even though i was wide awake after the Dilauded kicked in. Happens every time I have Dilauded or another Opiate.
Back on topic:
You may want to give another distro a shot to see if maybe that helps. for example I can get Slackware to play nice with one of my machines and SUSE didn't like it, and sometimes SUSE works and Slackware won't even run.
Just so you know that does happen in case you want to try something without the hassle.
AntiOnline - the home of narcotics anonymous :DQuote:
Originally Posted by gore
/me looks at massive pile of Ubuntu/Kubuntu CDsQuote:
You may want to give another distro a shot
You'd be surprised how many coasters I've made in my bid to install Ubuntu! I did have Suse dual booting with XP on my laptop until I started trying to install Ubuntu. The intention had been just to use linux, but I soon realised there were just too many things I did with that laptop which required windows (like visual basic). The dual boot wasn't ideal because of the small hard drive, but it worked after a fashion.
Ubuntu appeals because I think it really could replace Windows on a computer that only I'm using. The times I've run the live distro (ie the few occasions I've been able to persuade a computer to even do that), I've found it very easy to do everything I've wanted to do, ie it took me seconds to join an irc channel. When I have time I'll persevere with this pile of CDs and see if I can install one on the laptop - if I'm not worrying about dual booting I might not have so many problems.