Climatic Change?

I wonder?...............today we had a tornado in our capital city (London), it was thought to have been a T5 strength.

Trashed about 150 houses and put 400 people out of a home............
fortunately only 6 minor casualties.

Actually, we do get more tornados per land area than any other country in the World, but they are usually so minor that if you blink you will miss them. I guess I have seen about 5 in my lifetime (two were waterspouts).

Makes you wonder about climatic change though? :confused:

Though I'm not an alarmist, I have to accept that there is a climate change going on. I'm not going to get on a soapbox about "global warming".

I remember learning that we are in what scientists believe is the 4th interglacial period. Which would mean that it's "deja vu, all over again". The only debate remains is that whether or not we are accelerating it or not. I think man as an entity is pretty much helpless when it comes to the weather.

A selfish viewpoint in that I live well inland and over 500 feet above sea level, I actually enjoy the warmer winters we are having in Vermont, US.

As Darwin said, any organism faced with a changing environment has 3 options: adapt, migrate or die.

Sorry to hear about your fellow citizens, Nihil, what area of the UK was it? I have kin in Yorkshire and all over Scotland.

Yeah what part of the UK was it Duh

Hi fourdc it was London, which is on the river Thames down in the south east of the country.

I live up in Yorkshire, about 236 miles away. I have seen one tornado and two waterspouts up here and the resulting damage a couple of times.

They only last seconds normally..................they think this one lasted 40 seconds.

I agree with the climatic change...............it is changing, and has done so in the past, when there were too few of us and we were not industrialised to have much of an effect?

I can show you the archeological evidence of monks growing vines up here in the 13th. century. Yet in the latter part of the 19th. century we had ice fairs on the River Thames when it froze to a depth of several feet!!!

I am concerned about pollution though, as that has short term effects on our health? Something we can do something about?

:)

I saw that in the news. My friend, who lives just north of you in Lancashire (don't hate him for that) claims that it's been unseasonably warm there. There are still roses alive in his yard, in december.

Yes that is the same over this side Lancashire is West and we are East, but about the same latitude.

Not only do I have roses, I also have carnations in full flower with more buds to come!

Weird? :confused:

... it's the end of the world as we know it...

Sorry I couldn't resist.

If you haven’t seen an inconvenient truth, I suggest watching it. Just for the scenes that show how fast the glaciers have been melting. It's pretty scary and it's on us as human beings to do something.

I wish anyone on here who is there or has family there the best of luck. I was in the tornado that hit Nashville several years ago, and I've been through 4 hurricanes in the past 3 years in FL. Nature is a mean mean chick.

Ciao

The thing about the ice caps melting other then the seas rising is the temperature changes in the currents, right now the Gulf Stream sits off of Nova Scotia, and every year comes closer (only metres but hey, I started planting palm trees yesterday), the thing is, all that ice slipping into the Gulf Stream will have an effect on everything that rely on the warm waters i.e. Hurricanes for one, every thermal current has a purpose due to it's temperature's, if you increase it by only a centigrade, it can have unwelcome effects on certain coastlines or habitats.

Up in the North the natives are becoming alarmed because the traditional hunting seasons are out of whack, or the permafrost is not as it once was.

I feel IMHO that the majority of this planets responsible citizens are playing the ostrich game and when the shite hits the fan, it may be too late.

Too many inconsitencies happening to write it off as a one-off, and yep pollution is one of the major contributing factors, espescially now that China and India are full coal ahead (insert steam if you want), and damn the enviromentalists.

They are only doing what North America and Europe have been doing for approx 100 yrs Plus...consuming natural resources (and if you hadn't noticed lately copper is being bought or stolen at a premium, as the Far East eat it all up, I remember reading something awhile back about all of the junk or scrap metal that used to litter Mongolia, but now it has been scoured clean by China)at an astonishing rate as their economies expand..

just my 0.02cents ;)

Here is the irony. No one argues that the earth isn't warming up a bit. We argue over the cause and effect but it's happening. But on the time line of geological history we are nearing the end of a warming period. We haven't even reached the peak temperature as predicted in past interglacial periods. And to add to the irony... the same people that blew the whistle on greenhouse/global warming are the same dudes who were warning us all about global cooling in the 60s.

I'm going to stay out of this one (three weeks ago, I looked at every single source concerning global warming and those who call the concensus a myth, led by MIT's Lindzen, for one of my classes, and spent a week discussing the pro's and cons, and I've had enough of it :D ), BUT I can't resist RoadClosed's statement:

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And to add to the irony... the same people that blew the whistle on greenhouse/global warming are the same dudes who were warning us all about global cooling in the 60s.

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http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=94
Every now and again, the myth that "we shouldn't believe global warming predictions now, because in the 1970's they were predicting an ice age and/or cooling" surfaces. [...]

[It is] not an argument used by respectable and knowledgeable skeptics, because it crumbles under analysis. That doesn't stop it repeatedly cropping up in newsgroups though.

I should clarify that I'm talking about predictions in the scientific press. There were some regrettable things published in the popular press (e.g. Newsweek; though National Geographic did better).

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There are some very interesting people with good arguments against what they call the "myth of a concensus regarding global warming", but "it's the same dudes who predicted a new ice age" is not one of those arguments. For a pretty interesting read (from the "other" side):

- Christopher Monckton: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...it/nwarm05.xml
- Lindzen: http://www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lind...ationsRSL.html (publications 138-141)

actually

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Tornadoes occur throughout the world; however, the greatest number of tornadoes and most intense tornadoes occur in the United States

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http://www.education-world.com/a_lesson/lesson116.shtml

It was nowhere near a T5 ... that's the strongest tornado on the earth and have you seen some of these monsters in Tornado Alley ?!?

xenogamer, the quote that you have posted is not contradictory. The USA does have the largest number of tornadoes in absolute terms. However, if you divide that number by the landmass you will get a lower figure than performing the same calculation for the UK. The UK has the most per square mile ;)

moira, you need to consider four factors: size, intensity, duration and location.

The meteorologist on the TV news said he thought windspeeds could have reached 150Mph, which would make it T5 (that starts at 137Mph). What he did not mention, and I suspect, is that it was probably a "microburst", as UK tornadoes are so small and short lived that they are quite variable in their intensity throughout their lives.

The T-Scale goes up to 10, incidentally, and can be mathematically extended beyond that. More info here:

http://www.torro.org.UK/TORRO/index.php

Here is another interesting site: http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/

It looks like the Brits have the tornadoes and the Yanks have the hurricanes :D

Ironically last week or two weeks ago, there was some big climate get together and there was actually a suggestion to pollute the atmosphere so that we could "cool" the planet.

I have read that it would cost more to counteract climate change than it would to adapt to the changes.
Climate change has always happened it's a stupid idea to try to stop it. We've survived bigger changes in the past and we'll survive the changes that will happen over the next few centuries. A lot of the reports that are being banded about are alarmist and designed to sell papers/ raise funds for research etc. Everyone has an agenda.

The London tornado was a 4 apparently on the scale of 1-10 (BBC this morning).
And we do have the most tornadoes in the world but only per land area. The USA has more actual tornadoes (Ain't statistics full of sh1t) and stronger tornadoes.

Moira & Nihil > in the US, we use the F scale, so I bet Moira was referring to that in stead of the T scale, which Nihil was referring to. Wind speeds of 150MPH are "only" F2's. The Fujita scale looks more at the damage caused than at the wind speed, though, while the T scale only looks at wind speed. If London's tornado was 150MPH, then it was indeed a T5.

I was just south of Xenia, Ohio when an F5 hit it in '74. I'll never forget that day. Damn thing had an 800 yard wide footprint on the ground (that's right, 1/2 mile). Left 9000 homeless in a town of 18000. Only killed 33 though. Easily one of the largest recorded tornados ever.

As for global warming, here in the midwestern part of the US, I find the most noticeable effect is the autumn turn coming about two weeks later than it used to. Spring is coming earleir, too. Also, snakes indigenious to more southern regions are turning up here, most notably the venomous copperhead.

Watch your step...

:)

Well I used to be an environmental science major before switching to IT... The big thing that most people never consider is that the earth has been warmer than it is now, and it has been colder than it is now. Species going extinct due to changes in climate is part of the cycle of the earth. So what is really the problem if the planet warms up a bit and the ice sheet melts and the ocean levels rise? An economic one.

Humans like living on rivers, beaches, and lakes. And most of the people who can afford to live on that kind of land have a lot of money and put a lot of money into their houses. Look at the most expensive real estate in the US. Miami, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Portland, etc... All on the water, and all of them are at danger of rising ocean levels.

The earth will survive with a warmer climate, and many many animals in the world will also adapt and survive.. However, the countries with the most to lose are those that will have major economic damage as a result of a changing climate.

Imagine that Africa is no longer a major desert but rather grasslands and rain forest, while the US turns into a desert on the lower half. That would kind of change the "balance of power" in the world...

Is the climate getting warmer, definitely. What is causing it? Does it really matter? I don't think it does. Is this really damaging to the earth? Not at all..

But it is a concern to humans because it will change things in our life, and we don't adapt well to change any more.. When global climate change starts to affect the GDP of the major economic countries in the world a solution will be found. That will be the only thing that will drive change.

Negative, while I don't mind dealing into the mythological I base my idea on the words of climatologist in the USA and one at the National Laboratories in Boulder Colorado. You should take a trip up there, cool campus. Those links are interesting. The "myth" article references 1970s warnings of glaciation that cites mostly articles that say it's assumption was wrong at first because we "didn't have enough understanding of climate." I wasn't saying they are correct or incorrect just ironic. And I don't base it off some novel. In fact the article later states several source journals and papers that theorize an ice age is coming. And it did in fact note that cooling occurred in the 40s and 50s, well into the industrial age. It breaks down the theories based on inaccuracies, which is also Ironic, and thus makes them all a "myth". What will they find of our current summaries and ideals in 2050? But it does not change the fact that in the 70s we were all heading for an ice age according to several references right or wrong. And some of the same scientists making assumptions about global warming today are the ones who authored these "incaccurate" papers or spoke about them.

Negative thank you, I was referring to the Fujita scale, my mistake. I knew the London tornado wasn't in the same class as some of the twisters I've seen on TV from Tornado Alley :p Brokencrow, it must be weird to live somewhere those things are common. There are places where thunder is detected early enough for people to get off a golf course apparently, and weather stations issue "tornado warnings".

The US always has done everything on a far grander scale than we do in the UK :) I'd love to see a tornado, if I could do it from somewhere safe :) a bit mutually exclusive! I've always wondered why people who live in these areas choose to make their homes out of mobile caravans. I'd be wanting a nuclear bunker at the very least.

Re global warming, the most popular idea now is to get used to living with it. It wouldn't have to be a dramatic change anyway within our lifetime. The only really scarey thing is that global warming could trigger another ice age and then you haven't just got the earth becoming "a bit hotter/colder", you've got the sort of climate shift that may well have wiped out the dinosaurs.

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If you haven’t seen an inconvenient truth, I suggest watching it. Just for the scenes that show how fast the glaciers have been melting. It's pretty scary and it's on us as human beings to do something.

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I'm actually watching that for my Economics class, quite interesting so far.

And temperatures here in NY for November were outrageously warm. 70F in late November is unheard of. And in the summer I believe we reached 100F twice and in the mid 90s about 3 more times. Climate change is definitely going on, but I see some suggestions about adapting, what other options do we have if not adaptation and the oh so wonderful Air Conditioner that raises our electricity bill :)?

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The big thing that most people never consider is that the earth has been warmer than it is now, and it has been colder than it is now.

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Is the climate getting warmer, definitely. What is causing it? Does it really matter? I don't think it does. Is this really damaging to the earth? Not at all..

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I respect your opinion but the major argument for global warming has been the ozone layers depletion. So what would happen if the ozone layer was destroyed so much that we get warmer than it was back then. I think that is the fear among scientists, environmentalists and every other group of people that research into global warming.

It does appear that the little things get missed, back when I was younger, who heard of so many people being susceptible to skin cancer, we used to run around in the noonday sun without any worries about the problem we have now.Now everyone is urged to dress up and put on gobs of lotion...(Lotion Mfrs conspiracy...?)


The Ozone layer is a big thing, it's what keeps the Sun from baking our little asses off, without the Ozone layer we would be another Mercury, and that failure of the Ozone layer is down to man's interference with nature...(pollution).
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0504062245.htm

Then you have the Asian Brown Haze problem which has an effect.. http://www.infochangeindia.org/features45.jsp

IMHO, whatever climate changes are happening or the end result (Ice Age etc) as the cycle goes it is inevitable, but we are accelerating the process, can't deny that...I read somewhere that the population by 2016 could be 9 Billion, that's a lot of potential gas guzzling SUV's...:eek:

Considering that most of the world's population can't afford gas I don't think we have to worry about being overrun with SUV driving soccer moms.

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China and India are full coal ahead (insert steam if you want), and damn the enviromentalists.

They are only doing what North America and Europe have been doing for approx 100 yrs Plus...consuming natural resources (and if you hadn't noticed lately copper is being bought or stolen at a premium, as the Far East eat it all up, I remember reading something awhile back about all of the junk or scrap metal that used to litter Mongolia, but now it has been scoured clean by China)at an astonishing rate as their economies expand..

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With more prosperous economies, they might be able to afford more environmentally friendly
technologies, whereas if they were poor and desperate they would really say damn
the environmentalists. Environmentalism is a luxury only the prosperous can afford.
We only began to think about the environment in recent years. In the 1800s, people
were too desperate, trying to survive

I really don't think that the Ozone layer has much if anything to do with global warming. The ozone layer protects us against UV radiation rather than heat.

Clouds and airborne particles have more to do with the temperature of the earths atmosphere.

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I really don't think that the Ozone layer has much if anything to do with global warming. The ozone layer protects us against UV radiation rather than heat.

Clouds and airborne particles have more to do with the temperature of the earths atmosphere.

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That is another irony in the GW debate, it is used incorectely. The ozone is actually depleting because of our human endeaver. The big scare in the 80-90s.. the ozone is depleting because of CFC use. Ban CFCs. Why? We were all going to die from sun-rays.

Global warming doesn't have much to do with the ozone. It's the whole atmposhpere. Especially carbon dioxide and water vapor. That hold heat that would normally be reflected out into space.

Yes, it is "greenhouse gases" such as those mentioned, and methane and nitrous oxide.

They reflect outgoing long wave radiation back to Earth, just like the glass in a greenhouse.

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Originally Posted by dalek

It does appear that the little things get missed, back when I was younger, who heard of so many people being susceptible to skin cancer, we used to run around in the noonday sun without any worries about the problem we have now.Now everyone is urged to dress up and put on gobs of lotion...(Lotion Mfrs conspiracy...?)

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Isn't that more blissful ignorance? People used to smoke happily, never realising it was doing them real damage.

Not to mention people used to fry up some eggs, sausage and potatoes in a giant glob of bacon fat everyone morning. Hmmm. Damn, were's my old cranky cast iron pan....