Organized Religion

I didn't want to derail this other thread, so new thread time...

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Originally Posted by TheX1le

I think ORGANIZED religion is evil and represents every thing wrong in this world. Through out the ages organized religion has been all about death, money, and power. It simply just uses the bible to archive its goals.

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I agree, but I wouldn't quite put it in those terms :P I'm going to quote myself from another forum to save time here, although this particular critique is Jesus-heavy.

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Originally Posted by Terr, elsewhere

I look at it this way: Religions (when organized) breed politics. But the politics aren't tools of the religion, the religion is the medium and the tool of the power-hungry who arise within it. Similarly, religion can be the tool of national forces, although mainly when there's a difference in religion between both sides. In these cases, religion is a political tool and a salve for the worried consciences. Seperating religion and state protects both. It keeps religion from being a tool of the state, and keeps the state from favoritism.

Jesus was undeniably a liberal anti-status-quo figure. He preached varieties of civil disobedience, such as the "other cheek" or "go another mile". He was against the confluence of religion and commerce (moneylenders in the temple). He recognized that wealth is relative (the woman who gave only two pennies), which underlies progressive taxation policies. In contradiction to the prevailing mood, he didn't hold the opinon that the poor or the sick were mainly in their situations because they didn't work hard enough or were lazy, but instead helped them and commanded his followers to do likewise. He had plenty of bad things to say about the stinginess of the wealthy. The pharisees were the embodiment of mixing church and state, yet he opposed them and said to "render unto caesar", and specifically rejected calls by his followers (and temptations by the devil in the desert) that he make the kingdom of God a kingdom of men by going for political power. Jesus did all sorts of things (e.g. the foot-washing, associating with whores) which were far more offensive to the establishment at the time than many charges levelled by the religious right against people today.

Compare this to the the Falwell/Robertson/Dobson or mega-church sect of Christianity. In contrast, this is the denial of the historical, personal Jesus and the raising of Jesus as the figurehead of a hierarchy of individual worth based on written legalism, which is what Jesus fought against!

To nitpick, [Jesus] taught that being a good person was about doing good works, and not about such subtleties of whether you wiped your butt with the wrong hand.

Gay marriage. Calling it a sin is the pre-jesus phariseeical behavior: The thing is a sin not because anyone is hurt or evil is committed, but because it is prohibited and ritually unclean. It's like the priest leaving the man by the side of the road in the parable of the good samaritan: He was more concerned with obeying the letter of the law than the spirit.

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i like the new thread. makes the topics a little more organized, we were starting to get to broad, thnx.

i would agree with almost everything you said, the only thing id disagree with are pretty important/essential to what Jesus/true Christians believe/teach

first off i want to point out the reason i keep using the term true Christians. there are many people who consider themselves Christians today who aren't. Simply put they are liers and misinformed in one way or another. Im a little pessimistic but id say half to a quarter of people who call themselves christians really are, probably less. Jesus says theres going to be a lot of people who call themselves Christians who arent and will be told as much.

ok... so ill point out what i agree with whole heartedly cause there were some things you said that i liked a lot. just about everything you said about Jesus i'd agree with whole heartedly except the 1 point ill discuss in a second. He was very anti-power and selfishness and anytime someone tried to use authority for their own gains or hurt others with it he was .... enraged (not as strong as id have liked but u get the idea ;) The way many churches use Jesus/Christianity/religion today is wrong. i personally am not a religious person, or would not like to think of myself that way. religion for most people conjures up images of pews, rituals, and a lot of rules. Id like to think im in a relationship, which is where Christianity differs from other religions. Its very personal and relational, the entire "religion" is based on relationship (with God, through Christ). the only reason we're (Christians) still on earth at all, is because there are still a lot of people who miss the core concepts and the point of this life. i liked ur definition of a sin too. that was pretty cool and i think hits it pretty well.

my clarification:

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To nitpick, [Jesus] taught that being a good person was about doing good works, and not about such subtleties of whether you wiped your butt with the wrong hand.

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Jesus would agree that to be a good person u'd naturally do good things, but he would also say that all men are naturally evil, so we all need salvation (except Him since He was God and man) no matter what. The actions are a product of our state, not a definition of our state. From here i could get into judging people and what not but ill leave that for another post. to wrap up, righteousness is now determined by faith, not works. This has always been the case in the Bible and didnt change when Jesus came.

ill leave gay marriage alone because ive only worked a little on the topic, but the Bible clearly defines it as wrong and gives reasons... not just because its unlcean under the law.

well, thats my 2 cents

But it's that very premise (which, btw, is not one I'm unfamiliar with or necessarily disagree with) which is the door that allows all the trouble to enter. Everyone who is closer to the truth of their religion believes they're correct in their perception of it, and so does everyone who's farther from it. There is no referree to ask that everyone will believe and place their faith in, to render a verdict. That is why I maintain that the most dangerous words in any tongue of man are "It's God's will".

wow thats a good point. i love discussing these topics with you guys (the whole forum) and really just logical people in general. you get whole new arguments that arent based on emotion but are more objective and rational, it makes it more challenging and gives me new ways of thinking about what i believe, anyway...

i like that quote

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I maintain that the most dangerous words in any tongue of man are "It's God's will".

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i think id agree. ive recently read a book by ... i forget his name but its called Velvet Elvis and it's about redefining the Christian faith. One of his starting points is reading/interpreting the Bible and he says that he gets sick when people say im just saying what God says or this is what the Bible says. no matter who you are you have an agenda and that agenda effects the way you read/interpret the Bible, and i guess in this case your beliefs and views on your religion. Again, i hold that my "religion" is based on a relationship and faith in Christ. I believe this because first of all my own personal experiences and life, which helped me come to conclusions and then affected how i interpretted the second, the Bible. now i want to clarify that yes you have to interpret the Bible but there is a right and wrong way to do it, just like there is a right and wrong way to interpret anything (including linux command man pages lol ). there are entire courses on learning how to read into the Bible and become objective, subjective, and fair and yadda yadda (its called hermeneutics if you're interested). so ya, thats all i have to say about that.

except i do believe there is a referee, his names God :) His rules are layed out in His creation, and He's always right. but thats just what I believe

But you can't talk to him directly, or have him do a minute spot on tv to tell everyone precisely what is what. All you have are the writings of men who claim to be spreading his word, and then you have a myriad of interpretations of those words, further compounding the issue.

So this is what we're left with, and where all the problems arise from. Everyone thinks they have the right interpretation of god's word. But how do we know that the bible is a correct interpretation of god's word? It was written by men, and men are subject to incorrect perceptions, and distortions.

god has the greatest PR FIRM EVER! every thing in the bible teaches you not to question any thing. If something terrible happens well god works in mysterious ways. If something good happens praise the lord. Its never his fault. The mere fact that your not suppose to question any thing leads to the abusal of power by people. Its very easy for me to say its gods will. What amazing about life is that you can question things. Religion prohibits this it kills the idea of free thinking.

I may be splitting hairs here, but I always take issue when I hear someone say man is essentially or naturally evil. All the "Messengers from Above" reminded us we are, as the Bible so aptly describes it, created in the image of God. May I contend human beings are UNnaturally evil? When we say human beings are essentially evil, what are we saying about God? I've never gotten the impression from reading the Gospels that Jesus said we are naturally evil, though I suppose it could be interpreted so. I think he saw, and respected, that spark of the divine in all he met, even Samaritan women and Roman guards.

George Gurdjieff provides an outstanding critique of religion in his voluminous tome, Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson (Chapter 38 if'n you're interested). Beelzebub describes to his grandson Hassein how, in the wake of the death or absence of men like Buddha, Mohammed and Jesus, their followers would immediately begin to turn the teaching on its head. Moses goes off to a mountaintop and the escaped slaves following him build a golden calf to worship. The Prophet passes away and his Companions begin to kill each other (hence the Sunni/Shia split) in spite of their leader's injunction against doing so. And poor Peter, the rock upon which the Christian church is to be built, denies even knowing Jesus.

In my long studies of comparative religion, such Messengers pointedly "blast" the clergy. Islam, as taught by Mohammed, was to have NO clergy. Look at it now. Jesus lost no love on the high priests who so deftly helped to do him in. Buddha went into a forest to escape those arbiters and find direct contact with the divine. Yes, organized religion is so often about power and money, whether it's a church of a million minions or a small cell dedicated to destroying some mis-perceived "Shaytan". True religion organized though, most often goes unseen and unheard among the lost.

As for gay marriage, it will always be "gay marriage". The relationship between men and women is uniquely procreative, even sacred, and from which springs the continuation of our race. Growing up in the 60's and 70's like I did, the rising prevalence of divorce spurned a crisis at first, then became widely accepted. Marriage is often a shadow of what it was intended to be and simply a convenience now among a fallen race which mistakes sentimentality for love.

As Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche once told me, we live in an age of great degradation. I hope my contempt for mankind is not too palpable this morning. ;)

Wow, I can't believe I'm reading the name Georges Gurdjieff on a tech forum (or any forum, for that matter). Besides writing that critique

Wow, I can't believe I'm reading the name Georges Gurdjieff on a tech forum (or any forum, for that matter). Besides writing that critique of

Wow, I can't believe I'm reading the name Georges Gurdjieff on a tech forum (or any forum, for that matter). Besides writing that critique of religion,

Wow, I can't believe I'm reading the name Georges Gurdjieff on a tech forum (or any forum, for that matter). Besides writing that critique of religion, he was also the source of terrific distillations of the essence of what religion was supposed to accomplish, without all the dogmatic ritual and mumbo jumbo, written by his protegé P.D. Ouspensky.

i couldnt agree more with broken crow. heres my 2 cents for what its worth

he either has the best PR firm ever or the worst, since he calls humans to be his PR firm and we suck (not from a Christian perspective, anyone can see that humans at their core are pretty messed up, created in the image of God yes, but after the whole Garden of Eden deal we'll never be the same here on earth), but i see your point. And id agree. Most organized religions dont spread the idea of free thought and free thinking and its a shame and pretty retarded honestly. There is a lot of corruption that turns the church from a community of people coming to God, accepting others, and seeking truth into a political organization bent on furthering its own ideas and power. id agree that a man saying this is the will of God, or this is what God says, or this is who God is, is a very dangerous man. But true Christianity (not the pat-christian answers that we get all the time as cop-outs, its his will, works all things for the good, etc.) teaches us to struggle with God. Jacob in the old testament ended up having a wrestling match with God (he was stressing out about some life choices) and after getting his hip dislocated God calls him Israel and says he's going to be a great man (the father of a nation). the psalms consistently show a lot of really Godly men questioning God and asking are you really good? are you really who we've been told you are. but in the end they all come to the same conclusion, God is God and is trustworthy, has infinite love, is all powerful, all knowing, is merciful beyond measure and wants a relationship with us. Jesus, right before his death on a cross (which he knew from the beginning was coming) struggled with God, asking him to take away the coming trial. He's now called the savior of the world and is the most exulted. All of these great men struggled with God and are called great and Godly. God wants us to be real with Him and struggle with him. and if you look throughout the Bible, when people struggle with God, thats when he reveals himself, thats when he gives them something to believe