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I had a little debate today... I seemed to be the only one saying the internet would still be here even if Mcft did not require pcs to ship with IE. My debators argued that the Internet would not be the same, and only "geeks" could access it. One even suggested we would still be using BBSes.
What do you think?
The Internet would still be here yes but like it was in 1996! I don't know if you remember this or not but the INTERNET sucked ass in 1996! Dial up access ONLY, BBS Boards/systems, the sucky ass email clients, (pine, elm, mail, etc...) not to mention the generic ass looking web sites from back then. Also, not as many users would be online; only people who would be online back in 1996 would be geeks, college students, universities, military personal etc...Quote:
I had a little debate today... I seemed to be the only one saying the internet would still be here even if Mcft did not require pcs to ship with IE.
Of course it would not be the same. However, I do have to disagree with only "geeks" could access it. Who ever suggested we would still be using BBS if it wasnt for "Microsoft" needs to be shot in the face.Quote:
My debators argued that the Internet would not be the same, and only "geeks" could access it. One even suggested we would still be using BBSes.
What do you think?
Sure, Mircosoft plays its role in the whole computer world but lets be honest A great deal of support for the Internet community has come from the U.S. Federal Government, since the Internet was originally part of a federally-funded research program to begin with. As far as Microsoft goes phuck Microsoft.
Actually I remember instances where M$ did things that would hurt the development of the internet.
They didn't like the W3 standards and tried to change those, they didn't like Java and dragged their heels on that, they tried to kill the other browsers....
OK This is my personal view, and is based on my experiences only...........
Back then (1996) I used a 28.8 dial-up................ we were paying "per minute" for access time, so you were limited more by your ISP and Telco terms, than by your OS or browser.
Over here, we still have "newsgroups" which are the follow on from Bulletin Boards............. great places to trade copyright materials......... and the RIAA haven't worked it out yet?
Like I go to a friend's and we watch AC/DC "Stiff Upper Lip Live"............. he didn't buy it :rolleyes:
If M$ hadn't made their move, Apple would be the norm, and PC's would be for weirdos and geeks? :D
Hell! I was using Netscape back then?
And don't forget Acorn and the RISC OS...............
M$ didn't create the internet as we know it, or even contribute..............they just cornered the OS market, which is why they fall for any anti-trust legislation going :cool:
My take on it all is that it would be the same internet, only the names of the billionaire exploiters would change;)
well, one thought that occured to me was "if windows didn't come with IE how would I download firefox?"
answer - it would just be on all the software shelves. Either a freebie like those wonderful AOL disks or perhaps even something you have to pay extra for like office.
The big hassle here is getting connected not choosing the browser. Hell, most people aren't aware there is a choice. So maybe, not shipping with IE would give a more even market distribution to the browsers at one time. But MS seem to be going for an "out of the box" solution, which my laziness admires.
Lets face it, rebuilding a PC is already a long process - windows disk, driver disks, service pack, software....
if I have to make it windows disk, driver disk, service pack, browser, calculator, doodling program, firewall, telnet client....all from seperate disks from seperate providers its a lot more hassle. Don't get me wrong, I haven't looked back since I installed firefox but it is nice to just put the one disk in and have most of what I need too. Even more so for your average user. They don't really care about the difference between firefox and ie.
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Originally Posted by ngboot
I'm with you on this one. The www was invented by a brit named Tim Berners-Lee, not Microsoft.
MS might've helped to make desktop OS's accessible and user-friendly, but the internet is such a powerful tool that it would be flourishing with or without them.
Actually, you would have likely used an FTP client, a gopher client or a WAIS client. The Internet is not WWW. That's one part of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardpsymon
I actually liked some parts of how things were in 1996 (or rather when I first got online to it in 1994). I liked that there were different applications for each protocol rather than the bloatware of today. I liked that the chatrooms were actually interesting. I read through most newsgroups and found tonnes of information. But I think the thing I love most: NO ADVERTISING!
I swear, the two worst things that came out of the push to make the Internet a general access network was advertising (and thus, in turn, spam, phishing, spyware, etc.) and HTML email (my biggest pet peeve -- USELESS). The reality is that because there was a push to make it more "user friendly" meant that there were more people who wanted to do something, who learned that something needed to be done and figured out what needed to be done.
I know this isn't going to be a popular view, but IE was a ground-breaking program at that time. The 1st (and still the only) browser integrated with the OS, which could function as an FTP program, a browser, and morph seamlessly into windows explorer for local file surfing, and back. Unfortunately that very integration is what helped make it such a security risk, but greater possibility always invites greater risk.
So yes, I do think IE did aid in the overall growth of the web.
If IE wasn't built into the OS, then every ISP would have a browser on there set-up disk. So if you wanted to get internet access you wouldn't need a browser until you had an account with an ISP who would provide you with the necessary software.
But then we'd all be stuck in the same hell as AOL users, and juno users, etc. Forced to use whatever software the ISP shoves at ya.
I'm not sure that if I had been FORCED to use a browser like netscape navigator early on, that I would've developed the same interest I have now.
Only if you choose to. I *NEVER* used AOL or other mass ISPs. I used a local one. And, as a Mac user, was able to start off with the basic protocols -- telnet and FTP -- and go from there. Additionally, there were a lot of magazines and books that came with free internet utilities. You were only forced if you choose to stay with an ISP that required it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPnyc
I was with Internex (small Toronto ISP that charged decent rates -- I stayed with them until they were bought out and high-speed came into the area). To this day, I have never used what the ISP "required" me to use.
MsMittens sticking it to the man for over a decade. :)
Hell, ya! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by MadBeaver
Half the time it was because I didn't like their tool selection or they altered the defaults to something that just made it suck (e.g., AOL's browser was modified from original and made it near impossible to browse with).
But you're an experienced user. Most novices aren't even aware that you CAN use another browser, while connected to AOHELL or similar.
Now I am. Back then I was green beyond belief. I mean the first time I heard a modem I thought something was broken. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by JPnyc
I had to teach myself. The reality is that I think MS has done a disservcie by making everything too easy for everyone. Yes, make it somewhat easy but also require a bit of knowledge and learning.
Well from a certain POV they did. I mean IE is only remotely secure if you know how to configure it LOL. I'm joking, but that's actually true. I always recommend other browsers than IE (and IE shells) to novices. IE should only be braved by a somewhat savvy user. Of course that's not the way it works out most of the time.
Well, nobody ask me directly but here's my opinion....
Internet is .... well, Internet. Browsers are related to it, but not exactly the creators or developing needs.
As far with the question in matter, Internet will be the same even if M$ doesn't give you IE anymore or even if M$ leave to be what it is. Other different question will be "if" novice users will use internet in the same way they do now.
But, lets ask why they're "novice users" and no geeks? Back in that days (1996) geeks where pasioned people by informatic software, content, tecnology and some others stuff, as is it today, the element of "novice" were born when the software (IE by example) came with the user-friendly philosophy which isn't bad.
Now, if we took IE, or M$ what left? alot of things to use and with a bit of luck, the novice concept will be dismissed :)
Try to compare what is Internet or what could it be without IE or M$ in this days is pointless just because Internet is a monster that have grown alot in last years and keep going.
Even when the Internet (as Internet) started, IE was not a need, there was netscape, even Nexus and some plain browsers that let you access the content that exist in that moment. It wasn't pretty (flash, desing, usability, accessability.....) it was plain text, there was the ftp and telnet channel and some others stuff, but they weren't coming usin IE, just protocols and IE wasn't the only software that understood them.
Now, what if we remove IE.....users will let Internet access atemps or will look for other access methods? will those users still novice or will became geeks? :D
On the other hand, well, the ISP is forcing you to use their browser because IE dies, doesn't exist anymore.....As many choices as exist today, you'll be force to use ISP's browser? Not at all, just download other.....
Internet includes the World Wide Web, FTP, broadcast, telnet, SMTP, SSL, SSH and so on.....will all that change or be inaccessible just because IE is no more with us?.......is hard to believe, at least to me ;)
Regards
Me shows my age here -
I remember using a chat client called Q-Link (Quantum Link) on a Commodore 64 (I think a 2400 bit modem). If you want to talk about what ruined the internet :eek:
It was you all along!!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ShagDevil
But the net is now as universal as tv or phones or any other medium you want to name. Were it not for the ease of use of IE and it's ubiquitous inclusion, I don't think we'd be at the point now.
I didn't even start using IE until 1999 or 2000 and I was in the "internet" since the late 80s using SLIP. There is a definite case for MS and it's IE browser having influence on the extreme growth of the internet. But that can also be said about AOL and their early browser.
I was simply trying to get those guys to understand that if Mcft did not supply IE with its OS, other browsers would have just evolved. I do believe another Firefox or something different and perhaps even better would have still rolled around. I remember Netscape navigator... yea. But it was only a baby, in those days.
My history of this subject is a little rusty these days, however; the 'Internet', was quite well established and growing, at a time when Microsoft didn't believe there was a need to network PCs. They didn't even ship early versions of 'Windows', with a TCP/IP stack.
That said, the exponential growth of the internet, is very much linked to the explosion of PC ownership, which we have seen in recent years. Like it or not Microsoft has added more than it’s fare share to this.
Quantum link with maybe a 1200 baud modem? I was using a 300. I used another board called Delphi.
I don't think Microsoft should be handed a medal for the Internet. As others pointed out, they have done quite a bit that could be considered harmful. They did kind of push PCs onto a common user's home desk, however the Mac was a home user's machine too, and they didn't really do a thing to harm it as far as I know.
The net as we know it and before we knew it, was built for BSD. There's a joke I haven't heard in a while:
Windows NT, built for the Internet.
The Internet - Built for BSD.
If you want to listen to someone who was there talk about this subject buy a DVD called "20 Years of Berkeley UNIX" it has a good chunk of the history on it. I bought it from bsdmall.
IE as a browser.... I'll be good heh. I think it does a GREAT job at what it is SUPPOSED to do. It's the **** it does it wasn't supposed to that makes me want to pull the glue out of my mohawk. (Like crashing, being unstable, though for the most part that has been somewhat fixed and isn't like it used to be).
I trained myself on using Links and Lynx though too. I wanted to see what text only browsing was like so I used that, Pine, Elm, Mutt, FTP, and things like that just to get a feel for what it was like before I owned a computer.
I still use Mutt as my main client. I like it. I still use Links or Lynx from time to time if I know exactly what I'm looking for, or for when I'd be at school downloading things to a home machine over SSH.
Where would the internet be today without Mcft?
I dare say, it would be somewhat less commercial, with fewer viruses.
I refuse to believe that. Its like when people say that there are far fewer viruses for mac. Of course there are. If you want to catch as many credit card numbers as possible you write your virus for the mainstream OS. I very much doubt that mac OS has fewer bugs in total than Windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencrow
There was a comparison on The Register - bugs in IE vs bugs in FF. They both had a similar number of bugs, but as has been said - bugs in Firefox don't compromise the entire OS. (slight irony here as I realise that "Firefox" is not in the Firefox dictionary. Haha.)
Lets face it - the real reason that most people don't change from IE to other browsers is that IE does the job. Sure, it makes designing a website a PITA because IE renders it COMPLETELY differently to FF, but for the average dumb user who just wants to read the news, emails and maybe visit a chatroom thats not really a problem.
And Re my "how do I download...." statement, how do I download the FTP client? how do I download the telnet client? point being, at some point the OS has to come with SOMETHING and it might as well be IE. Again, thinking of the home user. That will always be my argument. Its all well and good us saying we can get firefox, or even code our own browser, but in the end the home user CAN'T and MS have done the clever thing and made an OS that will sell to the home user. Why? because there are a lot more home users than people like us. That means a lot more income for them.
I remember having no problems surfing the net on my amiga with a graphical interface. Also dont forget MS didnt create IE they bought it like about 90% of the applications integrated in windows. The only reason they intergarated it into the OS was to block the competition. I believe that the death of other computer systems like the Amiga, Atari ST ect was the worst thing to ever happen to home computing in general. The amiga os was years ahead of windows at the time.
I would have to say that netscape is the one that changed the net for "normal" people. If it wasn't for Netscape I don't think that MS would have done IE so impeded with in windows. How many systems that had win3.1 that used Netscape?
Just for the sake of arguement and to bring up a few things in a non-mean way:
I doubt that too, big companies suck at writing software without some problem or another. Why? Because they have motivation called money where as some dude who needs something that doesn't exist has an actual need to make the software and make it work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardpsymon
Basically how Linux was started. Linus needed and wanted a UNIX type OS and didn't think Minix was enough so he made his own. He didn't do it for the money he did it because he needed it.
However, I also believe people should be paid for their work. Linus has a BMW so that evens it out I guess lol.
Just a quick point here on this:Quote:
There was a comparison on The Register - bugs in IE vs bugs in FF. They both had a similar number of bugs, but as has been said - bugs in Firefox don't compromise the entire OS. (slight irony here as I realise that "Firefox" is not in the Firefox dictionary. Haha.)
When software comes on CD like for example IE, you can't see the source code to it. Open source and Free software on the other hand, come with sources, and you can actually look at it and find the bugs yourself, so, in theory mind you, these things SHOULD have more problems since you can look for them right in the code.
I agree. My family has a lot of people in it and they all want a computer. Guess who gets phone calls (or used to before I left the country and became long distance, rendering myself more expensive to call than tech support *Giggle*) to help with computer problems? Of course ;)Quote:
Lets face it - the real reason that most people don't change from IE to other browsers is that IE does the job. Sure, it makes designing a website a PITA because IE renders it COMPLETELY differently to FF, but for the average dumb user who just wants to read the news, emails and maybe visit a chatroom thats not really a problem.
One day I got tired of my cousin calling. I had him bring the machine to my house and had the agreement of how much he'd pay me to fix it. He wouldn't pay so I took his brand new computer, installed PC-DOS on it which did wonders for price bargaining, and then when paid I just popped Linux on there and set up SSH so I could fix problems without a phone call heh.
Worked like a charm. I just set it up for updates and didn't give him root, and the box was fine.
Again I agree. An OS needs tools to be useful, that's what makes it an OS in the first place really. I mean I could easily sit down and show someone how to install Slackware in 50 keyboard clacks or less and tell it to run init 4 at boot, and they wouldn't really know the difference after I changed the icons to look like Windows ones, but when someone buys a computer and they know damn near nothing about it, which in my experience is most of the time if you walk into any BestBuy, then they aren't going to go home and know how to partition a drive or install a whole new OS.Quote:
And Re my "how do I download...." statement, how do I download the FTP client? how do I download the telnet client? point being, at some point the OS has to come with SOMETHING and it might as well be IE. Again, thinking of the home user. That will always be my argument. Its all well and good us saying we can get firefox, or even code our own browser, but in the end the home user CAN'T and MS have done the clever thing and made an OS that will sell to the home user. Why? because there are a lot more home users than people like us. That means a lot more income for them.
My Mom bought a computer not long ago. She said "Make this work" heh. For the record though, I installed SUSE on Her machine and She used it just fine.
I told Her the icons on the desktop were browsers and email clients and how to type things up, and She was fine with it. I installed multiple browsers to show Her what it meant to have a choice and She used a mixture of Firefox and Netscape and once ina while Konqueror depending on which Window Manager She used and it actually worked out.
I'm still working on teaching my parents the difference between the left mouse button and the right mouse button.
I was an Amiga user and I hated windows and ESPECIALLY IE when it came out. Like I said I didn't even use that POS until around 99. But you could do more with a pc, much more. Get any card you wanted. Amiga and Apple ****ed themselves. Apple didn't even support TCP IP they had their own network protocol. MS integrated the browser into the OS about iE 4 if I remember. They got sued and everyone was pissed as hell but people kept buying PCs. Why? You can still do more **** with a PC running windows than with anything out there. Unless you are a Ninja Code Monkey elite at C.Quote:
I remember having no problems surfing the net on my amiga with a graphical interface. Also dont forget MS didnt create IE they bought it like about 90% of the applications integrated in windows. The only reason they intergarated it into the OS was to block the competition. I believe that the death of other computer systems like the Amiga, Atari ST ect was the worst thing to ever happen to home computing in general. The amiga os was years ahead of windows at the time.
Also there was a stint when Netscape was selling their browser in the stores, people were like.... whytf would I buy one when IE is free? To me the 1st IE version was a shitty clone of netscape.