Join Date: 07-07-2004
Total Posts: 1 (0.00 posts per day)
amazing.
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Join Date: 07-07-2004
Total Posts: 1 (0.00 posts per day)
amazing.
Also so this isn't a zero content thread, I would recommend that everyone go out and pick up a copy of "Silence on the Wire" by Michal Zalewski. Interesting stuff.
Welcome back. In response to the blurb from the NY times in your sig, I find it very telling. The author unintentioinally reveals the very reason that "hackers" are often referred to as "immature kids". He equates the ability to understand coding and security protocol with maturity, when in fact they couldn't be more unrelated.
Maturity, or the lack thereof, has nothing to do with the type of intelligence or cleverness required to understand various types of technology. They are entirely separate and unrelated.
The reason hackers are referred to as "immature kids" is because of the nature of the need to hack a site in the 1st place. This need can only come from one source, that being the need to prove something, to feel powerful, to gain status, and these needs, in and of themselves, exist only in those who are in a relative state of immaturity.
Mature individuals, whether or not they have the intelligence to understand the technology necessary to hack into a site, would have no interest in doing so. They have already learned and accepted who they are, and have found more substantial reasons to respect themselves, and others.
Thats an interesting idea but I think you left out the need to prove things to oneself. Noted that if you are hacking the NYTimes you are probably not just trying to prove to yourself that you can do it but this is often a push for hackers to do what they do. I wish I knew the better context of that quote because if he just dropped that line into one of their pages no one would have seen it but people who were looking for it (or site admins).
Also, someone who has been on the scene for as long as I predict you have would know that there are a million definitions of a hacker, and you yourself are most definitely one of them. We all are.
I meant an overall need to prove something, both to one's self and to all others. It's a way for someone who, for whatever reason, feels powerless and insigificant, to try and remedy that issue.
I was merely referring to the reasons the author revealed. What else could a statment likebe intended to do, if not to elevate the hacker in their own view and (hopefully) everyone else's?Quote:
"That ‘immature kids’ were able to bypass their 25,000 dollar fire walls, bypass the security put there by admins with XX years of experience or a XXX degree from some college. Nyah Nyah"
Sure, there are people out there making a living from their hacking skills, and lots of companies employ them to test their own security. I'm not referring to them.
I won't contend that the statement is pretty immature, but hilarious nonetheless.
Or unstable and/or completely insane.Quote:
... This need can only come from one source, that being the need to prove something, to feel powerful, to gain status, and these needs, in and of themselves, exist only in those who are in a relative state of immaturity.
Agreed. And look at the conversation it sparked! Please don't make it another 3 years till your next post!!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Slot
Agreed. I see them all as various degrees of insanity, however, but I tend toward extreme viewpoints :)Quote:
Originally Posted by IKnowNot
I figure I may start posting at a regular pace now, AO has always been a bit slow for my personal forums taste but I guess I can get used to it :D. Also, my cutesy IT folks have revoked access to all my other security sites, quoting them as (hacking). Damn you WebSense.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPnyc
Well if they label us that way, send em to me. The contact us link at every page bottom goes to me and the site editor. We'll set em straight. Unfortunately there's 2 sides to everything, and the other side of security discussion is breaching it. :|
Thats their exact argument for the opposite side, some sites of ill-repute often contain some valuable information on securing your own systems. There is a wormy site out there that contains some of the most up to date info about little breaches that are made in everyday software. Apparently our IT staff here don't keep up to date on what the newest exploits are, maybe thats why we have a virus problem!
Well the term "hacker" is by now totally redundant. Where have you been these last three years slot?.......... in solitary, or on some witness protection scheme? :D
What we have today are:
1. Cyber-criminals. These people herd the bot armies, steal personal data for resale, and support spammers. They actually make good money out of their activities ;)
2. Cyber Punks. These are the "wannabes" who will never make it, or anything, because they just do not have the intellect. You will find them running off at the mouth on IRC or pathetic "1337" sites.
3. Scumbags. These are pathetic, late entrants to the human race, who will be lucky to even finish it :rolleyes: Go to H-Zone to see how totally 1337 these pathetic excuses for humanity are.............. "I am 1337, I defaced Franny Bloomberg's Poodle manicure site"......
"hey man! how 1337........ is dem doze deth poodlez teh Man uses in I-rak?"
Anybody who admires or glorifies the latter two classes should be taken to a veterinary and put down. I respect the first class because they avoid capture and make a living out of it.
So, slot old chap, which one are you?
I get that, and it's very tough here, believe me, to ascertain which is which and try to maintain the integrity of the site. I mean it really is a fine line sometimes. Best I can do is try to get a feel for the person's intent and their general persona.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slot
Nih, I don't think he's any of those
You only listed the 3 genres of blackhats :(. I consider myself a whitehat hacker, I breach only my own computers security and I only disclose information for the sake of assisting other people with security flaws. Although I will say that I wish I was a totally 1337 hacker. They make my heart flutter.Quote:
Originally Posted by nihil
Also, lol'n @ deth poodlez.
And that's the category I mentioned earlier. If you have a system and it's security has never been tested by attempting to breach it, then you don't know that it's secure.
Slot,
You are quite correct. Unfortunately the media are responsible for this, I think?.... all "hackers" are illegal "blackhats" in their eyes?Quote:
You only listed the 3 genres of blackhats
Back in the day,............ please don't ask when, but as a hint, we used 80 column punched cards, and there were no GUIs or screen outputs.......... just about everything ran in batch, and you waited three days to get a result :D
Then, a hacker was somebody who could get things done, frequently in an unconventional or innovative way.............. hey, I am talking about the days when you would wake up the night sysops by submitting a batch job that would play "Battle Hymn of the Republic" on the vacuum drives :eek:
You have things soft these days son....................
You mean when the dinosaurs frolicked in green fields of VAXen?Quote:
Originally Posted by nihil
Yeah that's the OLD definition of a hacker, all but extinct now.
Slot,
You may have read about PDP11s. some of us have actually used them in anger :D
Actually the IBM I am referring to predates them....................... :eek:
:) So your a good Slot and not just another Dirty Slot :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nihil
You're right. I never touched those systems. Can't say its a bad thing. I like to think that my brain is not riddled with outdated knowledge just yet.
I wouldn't go that far. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MadBeaver
You have never lived sonny............. PDP11.......... one of the great "classic" machines of all time :D you could use them for all sorts.............. they hadn't invented the BSOD back then (I don't think that Billygoat Windoze has today? anyway he was still getting busted for dope back then)Quote:
You're right. I never touched those systems. Can't say its a bad thing. I like to think that my brain is not riddled with outdated knowledge just yet.
OK mainframe, but we used IBM 360's ICL MEs and the like as well.
As for your arrogance........... anything you learn will be outdated 10 minutes after.....if you get it at school or college then it is already 3+++ years out of date.
Take my advice mate and learn to extract the PRINCIPLES from the detail..... they never go out of date ;)
I think that in your concluding statement you verified that although I haven't experienced the love of these antiquated systems, I can still learn the same principles from a tape drive or a toaster right?Quote:
Originally Posted by nihil
Slot throws down the gauntlet, and nihil responds with a history/ethics lesson.Quote:
You're right. I never touched those systems. Can't say its a bad thing. I like to think that my brain is not riddled with outdated knowledge just yet.
Slot fires right back with a one liner:
( note here, both these items are still in use today and I am missing the relevance. )Quote:
... I can still learn the same principles from a tape drive or a toaster right?
nihil, are you saying we can actually learn from history and our's and others' mistakes??
What a concept!
Wait... is there some kind of argument going on i'm missing? The internet are a confusing place.Quote:
Originally Posted by IKnowNot
Slot,
It may take a little while of participation to pick up the various humour standards used here? I lurked for 18 months before joining, and it was still a bit of a culture shock ;)
Yes! that is what I am saying. Input - Processing - Output ........ does that seem familiar:rolleyes:. The secret is in identifying those elements that are important, beyond the ephemerality of qucihe technology. :DQuote:
I think that in your concluding statement you verified that although I haven't experienced the love of these antiquated systems, I can still learn the same principles from a tape drive or a toaster right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nihil
Hey....
Quiche is serious business.
If there is, I missed it too. I considered it a relevant and fine discussion. But then I've never been married so am no expert on what constitutes an argument.
Women will usually let you know when an argument is occuring. Things like "HEY... IM YELLING AT YOU LISTEN TO ME" or flying cutlery usually are good hints.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPnyc
Ah, so THAT'S what it means. *toddles off singing "hey, diddledy-dee, a single life for me!*