At least do it right..

Sheesh. So I signed up for "cyberbegging" (hey, I have a website to run and moving to US was rather expensive :p ) and today I got my first "phishing cyberbegging email". So, kids, let's see what was done wrong here:

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Good Day ... i am Rev Chris Ranking i m the founder of st peter catholic church, san antonio, Texas.. . Well, the Holy book says 'give and it shall be giving unto thee' so therefore i am willing to give to you the little i have but first would like to get a response from you after receiving this email with little more about yourself and what you facing .
The Lord is your strength.
Hope too read from you soon .
God bless .


st peters catholic church,
Rev Chris.

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1. Catholic Church uses "Father" as the title for their priests. Reverend is used by Presbyterian or Bapists churches (IIRC).

2. All Catholic priests are very educated and would probably be appalled to have written an email with grammar issues.

3. Catholic Churches are not "founded" in the same sense as other churches by their representative. The Church tells them where they will "teach".

4. The biblical quote is wrong. It should be: "Give, and it shall be given unto you" [Luke 6:38]. No priest would misquote like that nor would they exclude the source.

5. There is no "Chris Ranking" in San Antonio who is a church leader (Catholic or otherwise).

Sigh.

If you're gonna try to "scam" me, at least get yer frickin' details right. :P

Of course, for giggles, I replied to him explaining the bit about "Father" and founding. Let's see if I get a reply. LOL :D

Depends.. All christian churches consider them selves part of the holy catholic church.. catholic meaning universal..
But the many protestant church will not refer to themselves as catholic..
You should point out to our Rev/pastor/priest it is the Holy Roman Catholic Church, or the Holy Roman Church..
as for the quote... depends of the translation or transliteration of the bible.. Me thinks it is transliterated from vodka damaged neurones

(this post was 50:50 serious and jest)
Pope Undies...

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All christian churches consider them selves part of the holy catholic church..

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Most christian churches are not catholic and would hate to be labeled that way...

I do believe Undies is correct... But I'm an atheist so what do I know about religion :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

I think if you made that statement in Northern Ireland you may just get killed.

anyway

MsM - Cyber begging? where linkie please. I do so like selfless plugs for web sites.

Christians are believers in christ. Some christians are catholics, but a whole bunch are absolutely not, so the statement that "all christian churches consider them selves part of the holy catholic church" is incorrect...

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Originally Posted by Negative

Most christian churches are not catholic and would hate to be labeled that way...

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Oh I am sorry... So what is the apostles Creed then.. the oath of allegiance/membership for many christian churches?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed
oh then there is the nicene creed...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

But neg realise that there are churches that call themselves christian.. but definitely are not..

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Originally Posted by Negative

Christians are believers in christ. Some christians are catholics, but a whole bunch are absolutely not, so the statement that "all christian churches consider them selves part of the holy catholic church" is incorrect...

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And sorry but your statement "Christians are believers in christ" is not completely correct.. See ... Muslims believe that there was a christ so do many other faiths.. so does that make them christians as well?

I think you need a logic 101 lesson...

Lesson 1:

"All A are B" does NOT mean "All B are A". Example: "All dogs are animals" (All A are B) does NOT mean that "All animals are dogs" (All B are A). You make that mistake against a very simple logical rule when you state the following:

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And sorry but your statement "Christians are believers in christ" is not completely correct.. See ... Muslims believe that there was a christ so do many other faiths.. so does that make them christians as well?

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"All Christians believe in Christ" is what I said (All A are B). From this does NOT follow, unlike your assumption, that "all believers in Christ are Christians" (All B are A). You interpreted my "All Christians believe in Christ" to also mean that "All believers in Christ are Christians" when you said that Muslims believe in Christ, too. Very basic logical rule, very grave assault on it... Tsk tsk...

Lesson 2:

For a statement of the form "All A are B" to be true, ALL instances of A have to be B. If only one single A is NOT B, the "All A are B" statement becomes false.

When you say that "all christian churches consider them selves part of the holy catholic church", you make the mistake of generalization. All it takes to debunk that statement is ONE christian church that does NOT consider itself part of the holy catholic church, and your statement is false. Come drive around in some Southern US states, and you'll see the freakiest christian churches. All are (or claim to be, at least) hardcore christian, but I wouldn't dare ask them if they're catholic...

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Originally Posted by Negative

I think you need a logic 101 lesson...

Lesson 1:

"All A are B" does NOT mean "All B are A". Example: "All dogs are animals" (All A are B) does NOT mean that "All animals are dogs" (All B are A). You make that mistake against a very simple logical rule when you state the following:



"All Christians believe in Christ" is what I said (All A are B). From this does NOT follow, unlike your assumption, that "all believers in Christ are Christians" (All B are A). You interpreted my "All Christians believe in Christ" to also mean that "All believers in Christ are Christians" when you said that Muslims believe in Christ, too. Very basic logical rule, very grave assault on it... Tsk tsk...

Lesson 2:

For a statement of the form "All A are B" to be true, ALL instances of A have to be B. If only one single A is NOT B, the "All A are B" statement becomes false.

When you say that "all christian churches consider them selves part of the holy catholic church", you make the mistake of generalization. All it takes to debunk that statement is ONE christian church that does NOT consider itself part of the holy catholic church, and your statement is false. Come drive around in some Southern US states, and you'll see the freakiest christian churches. All are (or claim to be, at least) hardcore christian, but I wouldn't dare ask them if they're catholic...

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Neg.. before this gets out of hand .. realise I can start a "Christian church" tomorrow.. but it is not a christian church.. it is a name only.. that is my point.. MANY MANY faiths believe in christ.. they accept he lived.. and will teach many of the writings about him ..

What makes you think that my statements are false.. ?? ... what knowledge do you have of how many of these organisations operate? and you did not even mention my statement about the oaths of allegiance that many have as part of their membership core.

My statement is NOT a generalisation. It is infact specific.. it is differentiating the cults and fake churches from the christian church. People who get bent out of shape by the mention of the word catholic have forgotten their christian heritage.

the word catholic means universal - general : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic
If your redneck southern churches get bent out of shape.. then it is their problem.. BUT.. if you follow what I said earlier.. many of church that use the Apostles or nicene creeds are christian church's .. I will not exclude the few that don't use these.. these organisations at there core were prevented due to ignorance and/or political intervention

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Originally Posted by Negative

I think you need a logic 101 lesson...

[.

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I think you are an arrogant *****

So churches are only "christian churches" if you say they are?

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I think you are an arrogant *****

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You're probably right. You were condescending, though, and your logic was so off that the matters at hand didn't even matter anymore, so forgive me ;)

BTW: christianity predates the catholic church by at least 100 years...

I find it amusing how those Nigerian spammers have plenty of time to make up these emails.
But they obviously do not have the time to "Spell Check" nor do a little research.

You would have to be really silly to actually take the bait... :dunce:

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Originally Posted by Negative

You were condescending,

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And I was alone?..

sorry I came across as such... but to reply to an insult with an insult only resulted in the same..

As I saw a debate.. I was insulted by your inability to even look at some of my points of argument.. hence i interpreted your reply as an attack NOT as part of a debate. and your previous post, if it was some sort of apology, I may consider.. But would you have tried any of this if it had been Nihil who had made the comments? (ok given that I type with a total of one hand - not the same one, and the style and clarity in our statements is different..).. hmm that may have been a low statement...

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But would you have tried any of this if it had been Nihil who had made the comments?

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Probably, yes... I rarely reply to him, though, because I can't understand anything of what he says :D

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Originally Posted by Negative

Probably, yes... I rarely reply to him, though, because I can't understand anything of what he says :D

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and you can understand me ;) ( i being a citizen of Queenslandium, Australias. and use the water, blood and mud soaked version of the same dictionary)

Religious debate aside ( LOL ) brilliance hasn't responded yet. :P

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When you say that "all christian churches consider them selves part of the holy catholic church", you make the mistake of generalization.

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That's true if you define "Catholic" in the ordinary street sense, but theologians
learn that the word catholic merely means "universal",
and I would venture that most if not all Christians believe that they are
in some sense part of a universal church, regardless of their own sect.

Anyway, no Catholic priest would claim to be the founder of a congregation
Maybe he's Mel Gibson's priest...

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I would venture that most if not all Christians believe that they are
in some sense part of a universal church, regardless of their own sect.

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Most, yes... All, no :)

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Originally Posted by rcgreen

That's true if you define "Catholic" in the ordinary street sense, but theologians
learn that the word catholic merely means "universal",
and I would venture that most if not all Christians believe that they are
in some sense part of a universal church, regardless of their own sect.

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Yes..

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Originally Posted by rcgreen

Anyway, no Catholic priest would claim to be the founder of a congregation
Maybe he's Mel Gibson's priest...

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Interesting thought.. but wouldn't Mel demand to be the head of such a church.. ? in his own honour of course.. ;)

Neg.

While your logic may be impeccable, remember Mr. Spock explained to us that:
"Logic is only the beginning of wisdom"

You are applying a strictly logical approach to statements of semantic ambiguity and you are treating the common, imprecise language with a formality that I consider should not have been implied by the original use of the language.

So, Ms Mittens, any replies yet?

Regards,

Steve

The original statement was "All christian churches consider them selves part of the holy catholic church" - it didn't simply say "catholic", it said "holy catholic church." That's not a matter of semantic ambiguity. This whole thing could have been avoided easily; a simple "I meant to say most, not all christian churches" would have prevented 90% of posts in this thread :) To see where I'm coming from, refer to dinowuff's post for an excellent example.

The semantic confusion is between "catholic" and "Roman Catholic"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Hol...ostolic_Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church

The term originally used was catholic and no mention was made of Roman Catholic.

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"All christian churches consider them selves part of the holy catholic church"

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Could be interpreted as "All Christian Churches I know of" if one were not to take a formal view of the language. I occasionally worship at a C of E church, which is not RC and we use the phrase one holy and catholic church in the ceremony. All churches that I have ever worshipped at use that phrase - Including C of E, Roman Catholic, Baptist and non-denominational.

Most people, when stating opinions using common language often use the word "All" to mean "All that I know of"

I think semantic ambiguity is rife in this thread, and in reality in all uses of common language. That is why most legal documents define a number of terms and words formally to remove the ambiguity.

Perhaps you can give me the link to the thread of dinowuff that you refer to please. I've no idea what you are talking about otherwise.

Regards,
Steve

That's the same reversed logic again.

The original statement, again, was that "All christian churches consider THEMSELVES part of the holy catholic church" (emphasis added to make it clear where the problems lie with that statement). I think it's extremely obvious that not ALL christian churches consider themselves to be part of the holy catholic church. While the reverse may be true (the catholic church, or the "christian church" for that matter - whatever that may be - can consider all christian churches to be catholic as much as it pleases; don't reverse that logic, though, to assume that those christian churches consider themselves to be part of the catholic church).

If I ask the average Texan here, for example, if they are a member of a christian church, 90% will say "yes, absolutely!" Ask them, though, if they consider themselves - or their church - as being part of the catholic church, and whips will start a-cracking, Hemi's a-roaring, and Colts a-blazing...Quid erat demonstrandum.

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Originally Posted by Negative

That's the same reversed logic again.

The original statement, again, was that "All christian churches consider THEMSELVES part of the holy catholic church" (emphasis added to make it clear where the problems lie with that statement). I think it's extremely obvious that not ALL christian churches consider themselves to be part of the holy catholic church. While the reverse may be true (the catholic church, or the "christian church" for that matter - whatever that may be - can consider all christian churches to be catholic as much as it pleases; don't reverse that logic, though, to assume that those christian churches consider themselves to be part of the catholic church).

If I ask the average Texan here, for example, if they are a member of a christian church, 90% will say "yes, absolutely!" Ask them, though, if they consider themselves - or their church - as being part of the catholic church, and whips will start a-cracking, Hemi's a-roaring, and Colts a-blazing...Quid erat demonstrandum.

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Neg. are you deliberately ignoring my points about the use of common vs formal language, or do you simply not understand them?

I am in no way refuting your logic. I am explaining that in common language the word All and All .. that I know of are often interchangeable. (Emphasis added to make it clear the point I am failing to get across.)

On that basis the phrase "All Christian churches that I know of consider themselves part of the holy catholic church" is true.

This interpretation defines a subset of all Christian churches which makes the statement logically true.

It is the of the use of the word All, it's definition, and the confusion between Roman Catholic and holy catholic that I make my original point:

"Logic is only the beginning of wisdom"

I have no idea what goes on in Texas but to be pedantic the phrase above states that: All christian churches consider THEMSELVES

This makes no mention of surveys of their worshippers, in Texas or otherwise. We could now debate as to which set of people can be classed as a church and which set are its worshippers. And if one is true subset of the other, the same set or intersecting sets, but I really haven't got the energy for that debate. But all this re-emphasises the the point:

"Logic is only the beginning of wisdom"

And just for the sake of being truly pedantic, is this the Latin you meant?

"quod erat demonstrandum"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.

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and whips will start a-cracking, Hemi's a-roaring, and Colts a-blazing

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Don't forget the snakes. Any true Texas church has to
have snakes.

Either modification of the original statement will make me shut up: either change the original ("All christian churches consider themselves part of the holy catholic church") to "Most christian churches consider themselves part of the holy catholic church", or to "All christian churches that I know of consider themselves part of the catholic church."

Can we at least agree on that? If not, what will happen next time someone on these boards states that "All versions of the Windows operating system are shells around DOS"? Will you let that one go, too? Because, after all, "All" and "All that I know of" (and even "Some", I guess) are interchangeable, right?

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And just for the sake of being truly pedantic, is this the Latin you meant?

"quod erat demonstrandum"

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Absolutely. It's been 15 years. That, or my "i" and "o" keys are right next to each other :D

Being really pedantic now would be this: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/all

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"All christian churches consider themselves part of the holy catholic church"

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How about "All Christian churches (if they are truly Christian
according to rcgreen's definition of Christian) must consider
themselves part of the holy catholic church (or else they are not
really Christian at all (no matter how much they may claim to be.)
:cool:

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How about "All Christian churches (if they are truly Christian
according to rcgreen's definition of Christian) must consider
themselves part of the holy catholic church (or else they are not
really Christian at all (no matter how much they may claim to be.)

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Even better. Thank you, father Green :D

OK First:

1. "catholic" means universal, non-specific, general or whatever.
2. "Catholic" is the religious term.

Note the capitalisation ;)

We have "Roman Catholics" and "Anglo-Catholics" over here.............. the second lot are "Church of England"

All "Christian Churches" do not consider themselves "Catholic". Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists for example?

Now, to be a "Christian" you must believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

As a Roman Catholic, I can assure you that we are the only ones with "apostolic succession" :cool:

Neg.

First let me apologise. I have been a bit of a pain with this. Sorry.

I'd got wound up because I thought you'd been a bit hard with the Undies and to be honest, if it had been me replying I would have said something along the lines of "I understand your point" rather than giving a "Lesson in Logic"

Giving someone an univited "Lesson" did make you come across as arrogant, or at least it seemed to from my point of view.

Especially as I feelt it did boil down to a point in semantics. I guess I tried to explain that in my original post (obviously not as well as I could have) and things got a little out of hand from there. I suppose I got riled by the disagreement.

Perhaps my Mr Spock reference wasn't a good idea.

Sorry I sparked a bit of a flame there folks.

Regards,
Steve

No need to apologize; if anyone should, it's me (to Undies). I'm sure he feels relieved after having had a chance to call me a censored word, though, so I figure we're even :D

Maybe I was getting carried away by the thread's title, which seems fitting for our discussion :)

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Originally Posted by Negative

No need to apologize; if anyone should, it's me (to Undies). I'm sure he feels relieved after having had a chance to call me a censored word, though, so I figure we're even :D

Maybe I was getting carried away by the thread's title, which seems fitting for our discussion :)

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Accepted....
I had refrained from using the term "True Christian church" because that would have been exactly what Neg was niggling at me about.
And yes there are churches that are don't use the term "catholic", rather it is a variation of it or universal. Why, many are keeping their language for the common man or for some it is a misinterpretation of history..their desire to be truly separate from the Roman Catholic's. But to say that the church claiming it is part of the universal church does not make it a Christian church, rather it is a shingle hanger.

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Now, to be a "Christian" you must believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

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Sorry Nihil.. not entirely correct.. Satan believes that, so he is a Christian?
With out an over generalisation, it is the belief "That the persons salvation is from the belief that Jesus died for payment, 100%, of the cost our our denial (can include - incomplete, inaccurate worship - my replacement for the word Sin) of his Father God, the Creator of the universe"

I am sorry that this turned into a theological argument (read debate)

And Neg.. No I didn't feel better after calling you a *deleted word*..
rather that my welcome back was welcome by flames... after about 2 years I am back... and this was, unexpectedly for me, a good return thread.
Besides: If I was to be really insulting I would have called you a "Victorian Tourist" :D

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If I was to be really insulting I would have called you a "Victorian Tourist"

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I live in Texas these days... you should easily be able to find hundreds of better insults than that one :D

Hey, at least this thread reminds me of the good old days :)

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Originally Posted by Negative

Hey, at least this thread reminds me of the good old days :)

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more like OLD Fart... if you're going to reminisce.... Oh name calling.. hmm that wasn't this site.. AO never really got down to that level..


Hey back to MsM's post... could have been a treat to try one of the SCAMBUSTERS tricks.. never know what you may have gotten out of it

Hmm should have used SCAMBAITER.. like: http://www.419eater.com/ and similar..

Call yourself the priestess almighty of the church of the FSM, all bow to MsM .. and get the little scammer to send you a photograph of himself being whipped by an alter boy.. while holding a sign "I am a retarded scammer"

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Originally Posted by Negative

I live in Texas these days... you should easily be able to find hundreds of better insults than that one :D

Hey, at least this thread reminds me of the good old days :)

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Even better, he's a guy in Texas who can speak French and didn't come from Louisiana. If you have a problem finding insults with ammo like that it's time to just give up.

Come on Neg, go have some Chicken Fried steak that MY ancestor's invented ;)

Undies~

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Sorry Nihil.. not entirely correct.. Satan believes that, so he is a Christian?

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Christianity is a human belief, and only applies to humans.

Muslims believe in Jesus Christ, but that he was a prophet, and not the Son of God. They also believe that he will appear at the second coming, at the end of the World. They are not Christians.

MsM

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1. Catholic Church uses "Father" as the title for their priests. Reverend is used by Presbyterian or Bapists churches (IIRC).

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Whilst that may be true in common parlance, it is not correct in the formal sense.

Roman Catholics use the term "Father" as a generalisation, although the correct titles are:

Reverend Father
Very Reverend Father
Right Reverend Father

:)

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Originally Posted by nihil

[
MsM



Whilst that may be true in common parlance, it is not correct in the formal sense.

Roman Catholics use the term "Father" as a generalisation, although the correct titles are:

Reverend Father
Very Reverend Father
Right Reverend Father

:)

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Interesting. Never heard that referenced in the Catholic Churches I've visited (Canada -- specifically Ontario/Quebec).