On Line Harassment

In a thread I started a while back - died and should be left dead; I stated that there is no such thing as Online harassment.

The only reply to that statement:

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Originally Posted by JPnyc

There is most definitely such a thing as online harassment.

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got me thinking.

In the news of late there was a story of a Judge who sentences a 14 year old girl to jail for talking **** about her school principal on her my space page. (Ends up the judge was getting kick backs from the privatized juvenile detention center) But her my space comment could be viewed as harassment.

Perhaps creating a blog or social networking account representing someone else in order to defame someone is harassment?

But this is the Internet:
Where men are men. women are men, and children are FBI agents.
-catch

My question:

How can you be harassed on line. I'm not talking about you getting your feelings hurt and having enough time and money to sue some one or have a district attorney file charges against you. (The bogus my space pages or slanderous posts)

How can anything written on the Internet harm you? Do you really think anyone gives two shits about what someone on my space thinks about you?

So if you feel you are being harassed, why can't you:

Get a new email address
Change screen names
Don't visit the sites that offend you
Turn the computer off

I've thought of releasing malware under pseudonyms such as "Kimberley Vanvaeck" and "Sven Jaschan" with the idea that it would somehow get these people a new trial... sort of speak. There will be none of this "But im just a lil' kid! Bail me out mommy!"

I think that the fake "I'm dumping you" messages that led a 13-year to commit suicide come pretty close to harassment...

I don't think the countermeasures that you posted (changing email address,...) are protection against harassment. I can come up with a number of scenarios that probably wouldn't personally hurt your feelings, but would - in my opinion, at least - constitute harassment. I'm pretty sure, for example, that you wouldn't want your full name and address to show up on Google as the first result when someone searches for your name, if that full name and address are posted on a cross-dressing site by someone pretending to be you. It might not personally hurt your feelings, but what if a potential employer decides to Google you? I know you're excluding slander, but isn't that harassment?

I knew the 13 year old killing herself would be one of the first examples.

That doesn't fly with me. Not only did the older woman (THIS IS THE KEY) pretending to be a young suitor post something to the effect of "I'm dumping you" but also posted to the effect "You should go kill yourself"

Now while tragic; this is the result of a young, naive girl "Listening, and taking to heart, something said on the Internet".

So in my head, I can not fathom the logic - or lack there of - needed to kill one's self based on words posted on the Internet.


As to the cross dressing - lesbian - smurf fetish - white power - southern baptist - job applicant:

Any company who would base their background checks soely on google is a company that's probably not going to be in business very long anyway. And at the very least not one I would want to work for.

Blackmail is everywhere. This is why the government and even google are placing ads on tv and radio to be careful of what you post. Why even bother posting real info on any "free" site? Only sheep and youngins fall for that. There are even trick sites that allow you to use them for registration email only. "Lead the sheep to slaughter"
http://tinyurl.com/5kan4y

What about my example of reenacting computer related crimes as an effort to put further heat on people who've previously been arrested for the exact same thing?

Dino > I don't think "harassment" depends on whether or not you can phatom whether or not the supposedly-harassed person should feel harassed or not :D. If someone would be constantly badmouthing me or my repetutation somewhere online, I, like you, would probably not feel personally hurt; that doesn't change the fact that such acts constitute harassment, though. I believe there are two angles here: a first issue is whether or not there is such a thing as online harassment (which I definitely believe there is), and the second issue (which you seem to be focusing on) is whether or not one should feel bad about being harassed online. In other words: you may believe that people shouldn't feel personally hurt by words on the Internet, but that doesn't change anything about the reality of online harassment...

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Originally Posted by The-Spec

What about my example of reenacting computer related crimes as an effort to put further heat on people who've previously been arrested for the exact same thing?

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You mean some "secret society" type thing that made Kelvin Mitnick rich? Computers were here before that azz was even born. Nobody cares about security cams, cops cracking codes, or a dumb chick who was rejected from the Jerry Springer show. As long you are behind me, I control your future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dinowuff

How can anything written on the Internet harm you? Do you really think anyone gives two shits about what someone on my space thinks about you?

So if you feel you are being harassed, why can't you:

Get a new email address
Change screen names
Don't visit the sites that offend you
Turn the computer off

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I've known a few people who have faced this issue. They have gotten new email addresses (and had to repeated let friends know). Changed screen names more times than they can count. It's usually not the site at issue but the stalker -- most harassment I've seen is due to an ex or new partner of an ex. Using ignore features on forums only goes so far. Turning off the computer can be difficult if you have to use a computer for work or to communicate with friends. Additionally, by doing so, you are ensuring that the "stalker" has won: you don't go online and are afraid to go online.

In some extreme cases, I've seen it jump from online to in-person stalking. It does exist. In some cases it's a minor thing or an assumed thing (e.g., "So and so said this, therefore they are talking about ME! and won't leave me alone!"). In other cases, it's very real and a serious issue that law enforcement won't/can't address (there are few stalking laws for non-cyber issues; even less for cyber stalking/harassment).

One shouldn't have to give up their involvement online because someone else has an issue with them. They need to realize that's the other person's problem. It's when that other person takes it beyond simple online harassment and makes it into an obsession or worse.

Ok MsM

You female, me male.

Say one evening you and I were going to have a long term, meaningful, overnight relationship.

However, upon my disrobing you started laughing so hard that you passed out.

Ashamed I set out to inform the Internet that you are unreceptive to males.

So I use my vast 411 people search skills and find every online forum - social network.

I get your "friends" to join my social network.

Then I bomb everything with my made up details of that evening we spent together.

How are you going to respond, if at all

Oh yea I do this constantly but not to the point of "SPAMMING" the boards.

P.S. "It may be an inch, but it's an angry inch"

under this circumstance I'd have to agree. But when say you tried messing with me = no harrassment.

None of this is really like taking advantage of a death in someone's family. Or beating the hell out of people and putting it up on youtube though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dinowuff

Ok MsM

You female, me male.

Say one evening you and I were going to have a long term, meaningful, overnight relationship.

However, upon my disrobing you started laughing so hard that you passed out.

Ashamed I set out to inform the Internet that you are unreceptive to males.

So I use my vast 411 people search skills and find every online forum - social network.

I get your "friends" to join my social network.

Then I bomb everything with my made up details of that evening we spent together.

How are you going to respond, if at all

Oh yea I do this constantly but not to the point of "SPAMMING" the boards.

P.S. "It may be an inch, but it's an angry inch"

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Uh huh. And? It's still your issue.

If I change my name and email, letting my "friends" know what happened, it's very likely it'll stop there. That's not harassment. That's you being an ass.

But.. if you continue, stalk, etc. Then, that's harassment.

I think the problem with harassment is that it is almost impossible to define what it is (i.e. what are the boundaries between harassment and a joke or harassment and an annoyance). Since there are no real firm definitions it is really a subjective thing which makes it hard to police.

My personal opinion is that there is online harassment, something that makes an individual uncomfortable enough for them to have to change or modify the way they live their life (what websites they visit etc) could be considered harassment (this is only my opinion). I don't think anyone has the right to make others feel uncomfortable or unsafe, be that when they are online or otherwise.

<Controversial Rant Section>

My observation is that there is a hell of a lot of people who in the online environment are more then happy to bully or harass others because they can hide behind the perceived anonymity and the fact that they are not located in close geographic proximity to the person they are bullying or harassing.
If I was to be brutally unkind my guess would be that a lot of these people were probably physically bullied or harassed in "real life" and now take this out against others online because of the relative safety and anonymity that the internet and online channels provide for the bullies/perpetrators of harassment.
I have seen it a number of times in the past on this site, individuals who post with the underlying tones in their post of "Why am I wasting my time replying to this rubbish, this person is so stupid and doesn't belong here, and I am definitely smarter then you, idiot"
But I am not targetting this site, I have observed this on many forum type sites.

</Controversial Rant Section>

Lets say that individual A feels bullied (i.e. made to feel uncomfortable) by individual B online. Perhaps this bullying should be considered harassment only after individual A informs individual B that they feel harassed/bullied. If individual B continues to do it then I think this is harassment because B is aware that A is uncomfortable yet chooses to continue.

This is good in theory but unfortunately some people are not comfortable telling others how they feel or if they think they are being bullied so in practice it may not be appropriate.

I don't think there are any real "answers" here but I think it is a good and healthy debate

I would say that there is certainly such a thing as online (please read "internet") harassment.

If I bombard someone with telephone calls or poison pen letters via snailmail then I am harassing them, am I not?..............sooooo...........if I bombard them with texts from my cellphone I am also harassing them? Therefore if I bombard them with e-mails, I am harassing them via the internet?

QED

The internet is a means of communication; and if you have a means of communication, you have the wherewithal for harassment.

I think that dinowuff's objection is really about whether the internet is such a radically different form of communication as to constitute a special form of harassment.

If I post something on a blog or whatever it isn't that different from flyposting or distributing leaflets is it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nihil

I think that dinowuff's objection is really about whether the internet is such a radically different form of communication as to constitute a special form of harassment.

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Exactly my point, almost.

Neg suggested that perhaps posting my name on multiple gay sites may hurt future or current employment. I say no.

What if Neg calls my H.R. department and states that I'm gay and implies that my lifestyle preference includes illegal acts?

Neg and Gore come and beat me senseless because I posted their Internet Info on various gay lover social sites. The ass whooping is videotaped and played on youtube.

How is that harassment? The video, not the ass kicking. Well actually the actual ass kicking isn't harassment. Anyway...

Stalking an individual using the Internet is not harassment. The Internet is a tool. You can use this tool to find ways to harass people. But you can't DIRECTLY harass anyone using the Internet.

Perhaps someone has an example to prove different.

Quote:

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But you can't DIRECTLY harass anyone using the Internet...... Perhaps someone has an example to prove different.

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Sure; I work on the principle that the internet is basically a communications medium, so can be used for harassment like any of the older media.

For example:

Poison pen letter = hate e-mail
Libelous publication = libelous blog or forum post
Dog turd through letterbox = virus/malware

And so on? :D

What I am saying is that there is nothing particularly special about internet harassment with the possible exception of malware, and even that is just a variation on an old theme.

Well, I am not sure if you would constitute it as harassment, but the-spec brought up a good point about framing someone that already has a record for computer crime, by releasing malware using their name/handle. Who are the authorities going to believe? Even if they weren't convicted, the investigation would definitely not be enjoyable.

Hmmmm,

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framing someone that already has a record for computer crime, by releasing malware using their name/handle.

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Would they really use their previous ID? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nihil

Hmmmm,



Would they really use their previous ID? :D

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Good point. But you can't underestimate the stupidity of script kiddies. :-P