TOR ... to use, or not to use?

Hi all, I'm new here, so please excuse my noobness. :rolleyes:

I'm one of those guys wanting to better secure my browser/information, and I know Proxy jumping is one way of achieving that (IE. TOR project).
Only problems are:
1) Many websites block well known proxy servers.
2) The last jump from proxy to server is not encrypted, and prone to man-in-the-middle attacks.

I really don't mind the 2nd issue, as long as I'm not logging into any websites and want my information (password) leaked.
However, if I want to log-in (especially HTTPS / SSL), I think I would stay away from those.

I'm currently using google's secure DNS proxy server to do my browsing.

So... the question is:
Would you guys use TOR to do your secure (HTTPS / SSL) web browsing?

If not... how/what would you do/use?

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Would you guys use TOR to do your secure (HTTPS / SSL) web browsing?

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No............... it's too slow and unreliable.

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If not... how/what would you do/use?

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A directional antenna and one of the numerous unsecured WiFi hotspots within range ;)

I may well have totally misunderstood your question, if so, please correct me.

I think that you have two issues or concepts here, that are frequently contradictory?

1. Online anonimity and traceability.
2. Online communications security.


In scenario #1 I am an urban revolutionary with my copy of the "Anarchist's Cookbook" close to hand (never found anything in there that tasted nice:mad:)

I don't want anyone tracing where I am or where I go on the internet.............. so I don't go anywhere near Google, for a start.

I could use proxy hopping, which would hide my details from the target location. it would NOT hide my traffic from my ISP, and the mere fact that I was using a proxy might get me access denied or at least draw attention to myself?

Now, if I use my neighbour's unsecured WiFi, I am not using my ISP, I am using his. In reality I would use the bar down the road............... they are a client and an hotel......... lots of customers on a daily basis, and I know the security, passwords etc.........................:cool:

And I have disabled Global Positioning in my web browser, so it looks like I live 80 miles away.

On the other hand, I could pick on a neighbour I don't like; use their unsecured WiFi, then go to a proxy.................... The Man will not believe that they were hacked in that scenario?

In scenario #2 I actually want my online bank or e-commerce supplier to positively identify me. I don't want some online scumbag messing with my account do I? For that I use HTTPS/SSL as that is what they guarantee.

+1

In the USA most shopping malls I've encountered have free wi-fi with relatively fast internet access. One can sit at a table and enjoy a beverage while surfing anonymously.

Bank of America offers patrons a SecurID or similar card to enhance the logon/security process. Most people don't construct complex passwords of sufficient length nor do they change them often enough.

Use...
And here is why: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwMr8Xl7JMQ

Very interesting video, nice find :)

I can vouch for The_Jinx, as we've been friends a VERY long time. So usually, if he tells you something, he's generally got a good reason.

Also, Jinx, if you try and leave again, I'll hunt you down, lol :)

I have watched that video 3 times, its pretty moving, what is everyones thoughts on it?

In the video they list companies like websense, bluecoat who configure these devices for censorship ... they are actually out competition here in South Africa to a certain degree so I hate even more now :P

Met the tor guys in the video last summer.
They spend a lot of time with this cat and mouse game with filter vendors.

I think it's a really interesting point they make how softwate first designed to keep offices clean can (and wil) be used to sensor people instead of sites.

Personally I use tor as a tool to find information from sites I don't trust the owners of for example.
Or sites that run way old versions of certain cmses where I know an attacker could steal the db and find out what I have been reading.
A couple of weeks ago there was a pastebin of search strings and ip's from a medical site..
I for one wouldn't want my IP addres connected with (for example) a search on genital warts.

That being a weak example but you know what I mean ;-)

I do see your point.

The only problem with tor is the speed. If there wasn't a speed issue I think the vast majority would use it, well the people that know about and understand it.

Well,

I, personally, have no need of it, although I can see its uses. I tried it out of curiosity a while back, but it was very slow.

There again, the closest I will get to China is the restaurant at the top of my road, and as for the others; well I wouldn't go anywhere where they don't understand that getting p1$$ed out of your feckin mind is a fundamental male right, without a thermonuclear weapon.

They want nukes don't they........................

For those of us living in relative civilisation, TOR is pretty much academic, particularly when you think that your first jump is to your ISP, who can log everything.

In less civilised places it does provide a potential route around web filtering, which is not "censorship".

The downside is that it is very likely to draw attention to yourself.

Just try to think like "the enemy"...................... I have a population of 30,000,000 to suppress, and 3,000 of them are using TOR.............. err who do you think that my death squads will be visiting tonight?

Just look at Germany, Russia, China, Japan............... dictatorships don't give a damn about collateral damage, particularly on that kind of scale.

I prefer my local bar's open WiFi, or the railway station, or the library, or the Town Hall :lildevil:

lol Nihil. Deathsquads, really ? :P

With "converting" what you are doing on the internet doesnt mean you are actually doing the naughty, im sure there is still a caught of law, or maybe not.

The thing is, if you have a large population like you say and the VAST majority of them use something like tor then they cannot target the select few.

Something like chinas army , strength in numbers, but not so mobile :)

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lol Nihil. Deathsquads, really ? :P

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I have read of such things, albeit from exiled dissidents. The guys in that video did make direct reference to such goings on?

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The thing is, if you have a large population like you say and the VAST majority of them use something like tor then they cannot target the select few.

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That point was also made in the video, although the emphasis was on diversity of users rather than quantity. The underlying message is the same: "don't stand out" ?

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Something like chinas army , strength in numbers, but not so mobile

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If everyone in China's army used Tor, it would solve their government's problems instantly................... if my experience of Tor performance is anything to go by :D

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Originally Posted by nihil

Just look at Germany, Russia, China, Japan............... dictatorships don't give a damn about collateral damage, particularly on that kind of scale.

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Why on earth are Germany and Japan on that list? Both democracies... O__o

Anyways, that was an interesting video JinX, enjoyed it. :)

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Why on earth are Germany and Japan on that list? Both democracies... O__o

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WWII, war criminals, genocide.............................

WW2 has been over for longer than most of us have been alive. As an American Citizen of German Descent, I had nothing to do with WW2, and yet I've personally been called a Nazi JUST because I was speaking to someone in German who needed help and didn't understand English very well.

Germany's laws on Computing are fairly open. And by the way, if you want to find Nazi War Criminals, you don't look in Germany, you look in the US and South America. Period.

Do you know it's a Thousand Euro fine in Germany for doing a Salut?and that there are no Police Brutality laws, so, as I've personally seen; Cops will hold down neo-nazis for you to kick the **** out of.

"He who does not learn from history is condemned to repeat the past"

Today's dissidents face similar issues to resistance workers in German and Japanese occupied territories back in those days.

Just as the GeStaPo and SS had their IBM, new American corporations have arisen to provide the same supporting role to today's dictatorships. :mad:

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Do you know it's a Thousand Euro fine in Germany for doing a Salut?

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Yes, and "Holocaust Denial" will get you a prison sentence................ it happened, we must deal with it and learn from it. One of those lessons is that which is innocent in one environment or scenario might be far from it in another.

For years the US had had strict laws on the export of crypto products, yet crypto products have never played a significant role in the oppression of entire populations AFAIK.

Time to update the rules guys................................

That's actually true.... Sadly... You could "Import" Any Encryption you wanted, however, anything here, that was made here, or imported here, could not then be exported except for institutions like banks and things and other places the US allowed people to use it who weren't here.

I have NO idea how they got that to work out for everyone. Funnier with this story is that OpenBSD and OpenSSH, were both done in Canada.

And I agree with German law; If you do that Salut, you deserve to get the **** beat out of you at gun point. And, you are correct, if you are in fact stupid enough to deny anything that happened, you WILL pay for it.

As someone of direct German Descent, who's both into History, and proud to be German, I can tell you that the AUSTRIAN named Hitler, has put a permanent stain on our people.

I think you were actually born back then but I Honestly don't remember your Age Nihil; All I remember is you're "old" lol. Don't take that the wrong way of course, but you know what I mean I think. So I don't know if you were around back then, though I'm pretty sure you were, but what happened in the first half of the 20th Century in Germany, was disgrace.

We make THE best Cars anywhere on this Earth. We invented the Hypodermic Needle, which changed the way medicine was done forever! We did Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, Hydromorphone, Oxymorphone, and we were the first to take Raw Opium, and pull out the pure Morphine, allowing for REAL surgery to be performed!

We also invented Techno, Industrial, and making music with machines. And in WW2, a German came up with something that today is used for pain and Heroin Addiction known as "Methadone" because Hitler's top Pilot, was a Morphine Addict, and they were running low on Morphine, so, they needed to make something similar to it, and what they created, was Methadone. It was initially made to work like Morphine, but it's not as strong, doesn't kill pain as well, but, it does last a very long time, meaning you can go longer without taking something.

Oh and they, at the same time, invented Fanta. Lol.

But when you say German, does anyone think of those things? No, they think of a ****ing Austrian who hid the fact that there were Jews in his Family.

A Madman, like no other! That Mother ****er wasn't even German! Austria stopped being called "Kleine Deutschland" a long time ago, and therefore, is not part of Germany. Master Race.... Pffft. The Master Race, it appears, is NOTHING compared to the HUMAN Race.

I don't know what would make anyone hate the Jews. Mel Gibson is an *******. Hitler, who still has living Relatives here in the US, will not exist once they die. Every one of Hitler's living Relatives, has not Married, or had Children. They know what their Ancestor has done, and they don't want the name Hitler to go on, and so they have all taken an oath of no Children. NONE of them are having kids. All because of what he has done.

The Smear in German History, will always be there, but, they seem to have the right ideal; Letting that blood line, die out.

There's a lot of stuff to be proud of being German for; I named almost every Pain Killer on the Market today, and they were all done in Germany, by taking Opium, something God Put here for us all, and then, finding what ingredients made it up, such as Morphine, Codeine, and Thebaine, and then, playing with those to make new things!

And of course the Cars, the Music, and, the Autobahn! All of these things, and yet people still assume Nazi to this day! And WOOOO does England HATE us! Nihil, being from England, I'm sure you've heard anti German sentiment in your life; I know I have.

As for how people think about Jews; Jesus was Jewish. Therefore, anyone who hates them, probably isn't thinking to clearly. I don't care if people say they control Wealth and Media, I really don't. The Jews have been everything from slaves to murder victims.

Damn this is off topic lol. But Nihil, as I recall, you too, are a History buff, so I think we're OK.

TOR is not safe for personal/private internet jobs,sometimes targeted unknown P2P connecions smells fishy !

Could you elaborate on that?

Yes, people can sniff the exit node and if you use that to log into unsecured sites they might capture your login etc.
But unless you do such things, I can't see how it would be unsafe.

The tor codebase is one of the most scrutinized bodies of code ever.