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Thread: Linux vs. Microsoft

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Originally posted by Vorlin
    But for the record, I can't stand MS, never have liked them, and never will stand up for anything on their product line. If I got a buck for every Windows error I've ever encountered that *I* couldn't fix because it was bad code, etc...I could pay rent for a year I bet. That's just sorry work and I'd be miserable if I were a programmer for MS that had code in there...*nix is MUCH better. Then again, unix has been around since the 60's, hehe...
    I hear you, man. I was raised on Windows all the way back to 3.1, which was actually stable. When 95 and 98 came out, I didn't know any better than to trust them, and didn't even know Linux existed. Then came Windows ME. I ran it for about a month before it finally died completely. Until then, it was crashing about 3 times an HOUR. I hated it. NOTHING worked on it. Still, I knew nothing of the alternative operating systems, and switched to Windows 2000. Even that was crashing on an average of once a day. About 6 months ago, I finally jumped into the Linux world with Red Hat 7 on a junker box. I loved it. I loved it so much, that machine is sitting as a web server now. I just switched to SuSE 7.3 on my main box yesterday, and despite compatibility issues, I'm much happier on it than I have ever been on any of the recent Windows releases.

  2. #22
    PHP/PostgreSQL guy
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    I swear, all of you running RedHat 7.1 with no concept of programming, networking, or any other form of technology really piss me off. I mean, smart ass remarks and copy/past out of articles does not make you useful or interesting.
    Hmmm, I think people use RH more than others because A: RH is commercially available more than others, B: RH has been around a long time compared to other releases, C: it's a much more supported platform for businesses (check out their network support), and other points I could list but I think the point's been made. Using RH doesn't mean we have "no concept of programming, networking, or any other form of technology". Sorry you feel left out but I think a lot of people in here, myself included, have done WAY more with computers than just standard "pc tech junkies". And as a personal response to said quote, even though I don't have to defend against anything (go read other posts I've won't find much cut/paste anything in there, and even so, that's not bad as long as you reference the source), I don't really like being added to a group of people who undoubtedly run RH and know nothing. What about Windows skR1pT k1dd13z? Do *they* know more? Hell no, they point and f'ing click...not to mention, whether they compile a .c exploit because they read the README or they download a .exe and run it, they have no f'ing clue how it works, how to improve it, how to *FIX* the system they're hammering on by understanding how the exploit brings it down, etc etc... Your comment is vastly misdirected, and while a few on here are full of shite, most aren't and I don't find it wise to piss off those that can be of most use.
    We the willing, led by the unknowing, have been doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much with so little for so long that we are now qualified to do just about anything with almost nothing.

  3. #23
    Hmmm, I have decided to jump back to this post....not to flame back but to clear things up. If you go to the start of this post and read the replies it becomes obvious that what I was complaining about is absolutely correct. I can post information regarding specific details on protocols or other subjects that are security related but nobody seems to care. I am not a newbie to the field and I sure as hell don't need to explain my feelings towards those that are. Has it not occured to most of you that a post with educational value will show very little views while a flame will show well over 300? This is because the majority of elite here are simply looking for a step by step guide or an ego boost. They can care less about learning or actually having to think. As far as script kiddies go....we all know the trends. Mostly, kids will jump to Linux because everybody says it's cool....from there they are loading nmap and on their way to bugging the rest of us on how to hack the pentagon. If we wish to review history with the now.....let us take a look. Unix has been around forever......problem is that there are so many distributions and so little support that it does not favor a large company. Why do I know this? Because I work with large companies. I understand people's loyalty to Unix based systems because of the minority and wishing to be seperated from the normal user. But there are better ways then to just say you are running something other than windows on your box. Or that windows sucks or something immature along those lines. I think from now on I'll just stick with the tutorials and info guides so I can rid myself from the clowns that just sit on the bbls and wait for a flame. Thanks for the optimistic view chsh....catch me on IRC sometime and I'll answer your questions.



  4. #24
    In my opinion it is simply a question of being dependent on M$ and their programmers or not. There will always be people that do not understand what is going on inside their boxes and most of them do not care. That is why there are so many computer supporter companies out there that earn a lot of money by helping all those clueless users (or also friends that wear nasty t-shirts and help their friends although the text on the shirt promises a different thing...and believe me: I am one of those free supporters as well). But if you are curious by nature and do not like the situation that one company rules the world and you do not just want to stick with what they deliver and wait for a patch half a year etc. then you probably decide to switch to an open source environment.

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    /me Jumps on this here bandwagon

    UberC0der's Opinion ####

    Ok, I can see someone arguing that a new Linux user that isn't really sure how to even mount their CDROM yet is a little `bandwagon'ish' for making such an outrageous claim that Linux is better than Windows.

    Then again.... Do you have to use something for 1,2, or 3 years to know that you like it and kinda think it `rocks'?

    Perhaps,..These bandwogoneers know something. Maybe they know for themselves, in their own set of values, and thirst for knowledge that Linux and other free Open Source Unix's have more to offer. More to offer could be any reason that person sees it as.

    UberC0der's Clarification on *his* feelings about Unix ####

    I am guilty of being too generic in my speech when talking about Unix sometimes. There are several Unix's that I do not care for. All of these are proprietary and the hardware they run on is damned expensive (good, but expensive). If you think Windows is expensive, check out some of the proprietray Unix's and the workstatiosn they run on. It may surprise you to know that it is not all that uncommon to find Unix workstations that cost upwards of $20,000 US dollars, some cost more than that. These are workstations, not even servers.

    The only Unix's I support are Linux, Free/Open/NetBSD, and to a certain extent Solaris. Why? Lot's of reasons, but a very good one is that FreeBSD in particular is consistently at the top of all servers on the net with really high uptimes and service reliability.

    UberC0der's Unix concise Unix history crash course ####

    Unix is not becomming a presence on the internet, it *is* the internet. Every major protocol used on the internet was developed on Unix. Most if not nearly all of these were developed on BSD Unix. i won't bore you with a timeline, but smtp and tcp are from the mid 1970's for example.

    Love it or hate it, if you use the internet, you interact not only with Unix almost constantly, but no matter what OS you use, much if not all of your networking infastructure on that OS was developed in Unix.

    UberC0der's `Linux will never be a desktop OS' rebuttle ####

    Keep in mind that Linux can be anything the developers want it to be. It is not cast in some defined and unbreakable shape.

    There are two mainstream schools of thought in Linux where traditional computers are concerned. One is the `alpha-geek' philosophy that can be seen in Distributions like Slackware. The other is making leaps and bounds at `User-Friendly' orientated Linux. (Suse, and Mandrake are good examples of this). As the popularity of Linux builds, so are driver support, commercial software and other things for Linux.

    Simply put,... you may never use Linux as your primary Desktop OS, but do not be surprised if your children do.


    Disclaimer: UberC0der has been known to rant and talk about himself in the third person, these bizarre and disturbing personality traits should be ignored as bet as possible.
    Know this..., you may not by thyself in pride claim the Mantle of Wizardry; that way lies only Bogosity without End.

    Rather must you Become, and Become, and Become, until Hackers respect thy Power, and other Wizards hail thee as a Brother or Sister in Wisdom, and you wake up and realize that the Mantle hath lain unknown upon thy Shoulders since you knew not when.

  6. #26


    Thinking of what goes on in the mind of UberC0der really scares me! Great reply though. Regardless, on thing I would like to mention is that although Unix systems due tend to be the choice for web hosting (as opposed to IIS on M$) they are normally setup as being gateways or cheap alternatives to firewalls or low end routers. The protocols you are thinking of due not comprise of the internet. They are associated with things users do on the internet but to associate Unix as being the founder of protocols for the net is kinda vague. Routers such as Cisco are pretty much what makes the world go round as far as the internet goes. You cannot configure BGP or OSPF on a Unix box or a Microsoft box to be general about things. The last time I tried...configuring a dialogic system for telecom on BSD wasn't all that easy either. Companies and individuals will use what they see as being safe and a scalable solution. Even though Unix sometimes has more perks.....Microsoft will have the knowledge base and support to provide a "safer" choice to those that do put the thousands of dollars towards a solution.

    Point of post: Until Unix manages to unify the different distributions and gain better software support as well as commercial will tend to stay on the back burners as a professional solution to any company.



  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    A polite disagreement if I may.

    There is nothing cheap and low end about the Unix presence on the internet. Pay a visit to and look up just about any site that comes to mind. has assorted statistics about that site including OS and Webserver type. You will find that the vast majority of sited out there (including very respectable ones) run Solaris, SunOS, a BSD Unix or some other Unix flavor. The most common webserves on the Internet are Apache and Netscape-Enterprise. This site also has `uptime' statistics.

    Cheap and low end is far from it really. A Enterprise class Sun server or (Compaq, or IBM etc. ) is $3,000,000 plus. Many sites have moved to something Linux or Free/OpenBSD based due to faster filesystems and very quick turnarounds on patches and bugfixes not found in other Unix flavorss and OS's.

    Software support at this level is the best it will ever be. If your comany purchases one of those Sun servers, you will have all the help and support you could ever want, most of the time on-site. Red-Hat, Suse, a few others, and the Proprietary Unix's have support that is absolutely amazing, in many cases you will be working directly with developers of that particular product.
    My company runs about 40% Solaris, 20% AIX, 20% Red Hat Linux, and the remainder is made up of Windows NT 4 and 2000 server. The NT and 2000 machines are going away by the beginning of next year, to be replaced by Red Hat servers.
    Why? Because MS Support is expensive and the solutions have slow turnaround time. On the other hand, Sun and IBM gave us on site reps that are company gurus on their OS, and Red Hat has proven to be just as responsive and capable of giving us the right answer fast for free or very little money.

    No software? What can't you run in Unix? There is even IE 5.x for Solaris. All of the high quality graphics prgrams (Maya, Adobe Photoshop, Nemo, 3D studi etc.) have Unix versions, Oracle was originally a Unix software, all of the development software w require as a company comes free with the OS. The mail servers and other free alternatives that come with Unix have proven for our needs to be suprerior to MS Exchange. Add to that SAMBA, and all of the other things that come with Unix for no extra money and there is no competition.

    Routers and Switches and stuff are great, and very nifty indeed, but they are meaningless without a good server behind them.

    smtp, udp, tcp, ip, tcp/ip, icmp, ftp, nntp, bootps, sendmail, RPC, NIS, NFS, Samba, telnet, ssh, ssl, irc, uucp, http, shttp, html, DNS, BIND, ipv4, ipv6, tunneling, packet filtering, proxy, kerberos, the OSI model, ethernet, POP, IMAP, DHCP, DES, MD5, PGP, C, C++, PERL, Fortran, Pascal, Awk, SED, the TCP/IP Stack, and many others were developed on Unix systems. Go to and check the RFC's, many of these protocols and internet standards are much older than some may think, and they were all developed on Unix ( Unix was the only real OS back then other than VMS which has it's own stuff).

    I simply think that many younger peole and those who have always been MS users do not realize the extent to which the Internet has been around and what influenced it. a bit of trivia: The concept of the present day internet was hashed out in 1963 by Paul Baran of the RAND corporation. It was not until 1972-73 when Unix was rewritten in C and AT&T started giving it away to Universities and research companies that the serious work was done to develop the required protocols. The Internic allowed commercial traffic to hit the net and register for domain names in 1993. Many people that I talk to think this is when the Internet was developed/started. And some of those still believe that Al Gore/Bill Clinton were behind it all.

    btw:,,,,,, and many others run Linux on their servers, and here is a link to hosts with the longest known uptimes.
    And here is a link to the top hosting sites in the world by uptime:

    hmmmm... there is a lot of Linux and Unix there

    Good discussion going on here in this thread, Okay, I have done all of the ranting I can do for one week. Have a great weekend everyone.

    ########### And Happy New Year!!
    Know this..., you may not by thyself in pride claim the Mantle of Wizardry; that way lies only Bogosity without End.

    Rather must you Become, and Become, and Become, until Hackers respect thy Power, and other Wizards hail thee as a Brother or Sister in Wisdom, and you wake up and realize that the Mantle hath lain unknown upon thy Shoulders since you knew not when.

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