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March 2nd, 2002, 03:45 AM
#61
Originally posted here by Alcatraz
It's not a fault. Humans need purpose. Everything we do is done for a purpose. Sex and eating are for a purpose. And we have meanings for those. To reproduce and avoid starvation, in this case. And searching for a meaning in God is natural because we don't really have a meaning for him...
I didn't make myself clear...I was more focusing on the apparent need to look 'beyond', when many of the reasons and meanings and insights on life exist all around us, regardless of beliefs...
Ouroboros
And yes, Tolkien was a devout Christian...just had a good objective viewpoint about the fundamentals of religion itself...
O
"entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"
"entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity."
-Occam's Razor
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March 2nd, 2002, 03:56 AM
#62
I didn't make myself clear...I was more focusing on the apparent need to look 'beyond', when many of the reasons and meanings and insights on life exist all around us, regardless of beliefs...
Ouroboros
And yes, Tolkien was a devout Christian...just had a good objective viewpoint about the fundamentals of religion itself...
We don't NEED to look beyond...it's just kind of...nice to.
I agree with Tolkien, I think, after all, objectivity is a very good thing. And personally, I've stripped down my personal religious beliefs to a very small, practical amount. I think. I guess I really can't be sure. But I'm just rambling. Whatever.
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March 2nd, 2002, 05:49 AM
#63
Originally posted here by Alcatraz
stflook: It's about time I thank you for this thread. (I forgot to sign my name on those APs...) But really, this thread has seen some of best debates AO has to offer.
This kind of debate is exactly what I wanted. I really oughta thank you for being so active in it. I was waiting for somebody as opinionated as PhirePhreak to join in, but I was hoping he wouldn't start accusing me of forcing my beliefs on him and such. Maybe when he cools down, we can debate it without him being so aggressive about it.
Also, I never said that all Jews are nonviolent. I said that Judiasm as a whole has a comparitively nonviolent history. Face it, throughout history, Judiasm has taken a lot more than it has dished out.
I need to come up with another hot topic for debate... Any ideas?
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March 2nd, 2002, 07:18 AM
#64
Stflook: I'm sorry for making that accusation. I was wrong. And I'm sorry also that I don't have any ideas for more debates... yet... I'm sure something will come to me. Another thing: don't hate me cause I'm beautiful... okay, just kidding. But seriously, thank you for starting this thread. Having so many peope questioning my faith has made me question it. And by questioning it, I proved to myself yet again that Christianity is the only logical way. And because of that realization, I've become a stronger Christian, and drawn closer to God.
the rest of you:
Since the Crusades have been a pretty hot topic, I'm going to take my precious time to address that. The Crusades were not caused by Christianity, nor were they based on Christian beliefs. Christianity was merely the "honorable" excuse given for it. The same thing happened with Spain. They explorered for three basic reasons: God, Gold, and Glory. But, yet again, God was merely an excuse to use whatever means might be necessary to get the gold and glory. Of course they wanted gold, or boullion, because they would become very rich with it (which they did). Glory is another given. Yet anyone familiar with the Christian faith knows that it preaches humility over and over again. So, the Spanish just threw God in there as a justification. The same happened with Americans settling North America. They believed in something called "Manifest Destiny", which basically says that Americans were destined by God to settle all accross the continent. They justified mistreatment of Indians, Mexicans, and anyone else who got in their way by saying that it was God's will.
If I wanted to, I could go find many more instances that Christianity has been used as the excuse for something. But just because it's a lame excuse for inexcusable actions does not mean that the faith and principles of Christianity that have been abused are wrong. If I went out killing people in the name of Democracy, would that make Democracy wrong? The people mentioned above who used Christianity as an excuse were merely hypocrites. Christianity teaches "Do not kill" and "Love your neighbor as yourself", yet they killed, and mistreated people based on their race.
In conclusion, hypocritical Christianity IS wrong, but the true Christianity, based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, is the only true answer.
Earlier I challenged everyone to read "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. I've read it before, but I started to read it again today. It has an amazing amount of information... all factual. And this debate even gave me the courage and ferocity to read it in school... public high school... I never would have done that a week ago. Oh yeah, and it's an obnoxiously large book... good for hitting people if they freak out about you reading it 
Well, so ends another one of my posts.
God bless,
--PhirePhreak
I know you\'re out there. I can feel you now. I know that you\'re afraid. You\'re afraid of us. You\'re afraid of change. I don\'t know the future. I didn\'t come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it\'s going to begin. I\'m going to hang up this phone, and then I\'m going to show these people what you don\'t want them to see. I\'m going to show them a world without you, a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.
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March 2nd, 2002, 04:58 PM
#65
Stflook if you're looking for a new topic and want to stay with religions, how about picking another one and starting a new thread. AOers are probably many religions and non religious so you have a wide choice.
Trappedagainbyperfectlogic.
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March 3rd, 2002, 04:39 AM
#66
Junior Member
What about the bible saying he made Adam, and Eve being made from his rib? With this in mind, we have all but proven the theory of evolution from monkeys. Another instance where the bible is proven wrong.
HELP!!! I AM TRAPPED IN SURREALITY!!!
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March 3rd, 2002, 05:07 AM
#67
One problem little buddy... evolution says that it was all pretty much an accident. God purposefully create Eve from Adam's rib. Yet another instance where the Bible is not wrong. Sorry to shoot your hopes down.
--PhirePhreak
I know you\'re out there. I can feel you now. I know that you\'re afraid. You\'re afraid of us. You\'re afraid of change. I don\'t know the future. I didn\'t come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it\'s going to begin. I\'m going to hang up this phone, and then I\'m going to show these people what you don\'t want them to see. I\'m going to show them a world without you, a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.
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March 5th, 2002, 06:19 PM
#68
Originally posted here by Alcatraz
Christianity doesn't say it's OK to kill someone. The leaders did. I know that, in principle, the soldiers shouldn't have followed their orders. But we've never been in their shoes, so we can't say how hard it might be to pass up a job with decent money and risk being called a traitor and possible shot if we got caught. Besides, EVERYone is doing it...
If there's one thing that I think shows someone is a weak-minded fool, it's giving into peer pressure. This only furthers what I said earlier about christianity being used as a tool to gain power, and little more.
Yep. That is exactly what I said. People are not holy, and thus, can't decide what is. These officials got to power and don't want to give it up so they're starting a war in the 'name of all that's good and pure.' Corrupt officials don't represent the people. And they definitely don't represent a religion. I mean, does bin Laden represent Islam?
People should still know right from wrong. I don't let them off the hook for following along and doing something they don't like.
As for bin Laden representing Islam, I don't believe so, but there are others who do.
Chris Shepherd
The Nelson-Shepherd cutoff: The point at which you realise someone is an idiot while trying to help them.
\"Well as far as the spelling, I speak fluently both your native languages. Do you even can try spell mine ?\" -- Failed Insult
Is your whole family retarded, or did they just catch it from you?
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March 5th, 2002, 06:26 PM
#69
Originally posted here by Alcatraz
It's not a fault. Humans need purpose. Everything we do is done for a purpose. Sex and eating are for a purpose. And we have meanings for those. To reproduce and avoid starvation, in this case. And searching for a meaning in God is natural because we don't really have a meaning for him...
Yes, however those are material things. God is not a material thing, he is a philosophical thing. IMO, MAN *creates* GOD (not vice versa) as a sort of mystical catch-all. We can just attribute it to the wonders of GOD why something happened that isn't readily apparent.
Chris Shepherd
The Nelson-Shepherd cutoff: The point at which you realise someone is an idiot while trying to help them.
\"Well as far as the spelling, I speak fluently both your native languages. Do you even can try spell mine ?\" -- Failed Insult
Is your whole family retarded, or did they just catch it from you?
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March 5th, 2002, 06:43 PM
#70
Originally posted here by chsh
Yes, however those are material things. God is not a material thing, he is a philosophical thing. IMO, MAN *creates* GOD (not vice versa) as a sort of mystical catch-all. We can just attribute it to the wonders of GOD why something happened that isn't readily apparent.
Yes chsh, but also consider this. Does there not seem to be something inside humans that urges them on to seek something greater than themselves? Can't this need to make sense of our world be a proof of the existence of a Creator? Saint Augustine once said, "O God you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you." I submit that God has "hardwired" us for spirituality. We may express it in different ways (I'm not saying I believe all religions are true) but this spiritual hunger inside of us is just as real as any physical desire. If we don't eat or drink we die physically. If we don't have a relationship with God we're dead spiritually. Both are real.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:23, WEB)
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