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Thread: Christianity

  1. #51
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    Interesting... people aruge with me but not with Alcatraz... cool! And Alcatraz: rock on. You're doing a great job... I think so at least.

    God bless,
    --PhirePhreak
    I know you\'re out there. I can feel you now. I know that you\'re afraid. You\'re afraid of us. You\'re afraid of change. I don\'t know the future. I didn\'t come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it\'s going to begin. I\'m going to hang up this phone, and then I\'m going to show these people what you don\'t want them to see. I\'m going to show them a world without you, a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.

  2. #52
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    chsh - I think we can agree then on what science is. You put that well.
    I did get your meaning on the asteroid thing (we've all watched too many movies here.. heheh) but still disagree on God caring. I say He does care.
    Alcatraz - good post.
    Trappedagainbyperfectlogic.

  3. #53
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    chsh - I think we can agree then on what science is. You put that well.
    I did get your meaning on the asteroid thing (we've all watched too many movies here.. heheh) but still disagree on God caring. I say He does care.
    Alcatraz - good post
    Trappedagainbyperfectlogic.

  4. #54
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    Originally posted here by Alcatraz
    People follow leaders. Look how many followed Hitler in World War II. I doubt all those thousands believed in what they were doing, and if they did, I don't think they realized it. And even if that, I don't think they thought they had much choice.
    Very true, however allowing the desire to follow a leader to override your ethics, morals, and beliefs is a very bad thing. What religion has said that it's ok to kill some people? I don't recall those teachings anywhere, but then again, I haven't experienced all of the world's religions...

    I totally agree! But these things happen, and then the religion is blamed for the actions of those who disgraced it. If you don't want to like something, as many people choose to dislike Christianity and such, its easy to sieze an example like the crusades and say, "This is Christianity." Well it's not, and the people who say that are just hiding behind an illusion.
    That's terribly amusing. You're saying that a group of 'officials' of a religion condoning a war as long as it's in the 'name of all that's good and pure' ([insert religion here]) doesn't count as a holy war and should not be held against said religion?

    I'm sorry, I fundamentally disagree with that argument. Christianity as a whole endorsed the crusades. If it were simply a small group of people speaking for a whole religion (as many terrorists are) then maybe I could see your point. Unfortunately in Christianity's case, a very large majority were in favour of 'retaking the birthplace of Christ' by force.

    I do agree that people who simply say "This is christianity" and point out the Crusades, the Inquisition, WW II, etc., are all very silly, because there is more to every religion than just that. Rather unfortunately christianity created an environment where those who sought political power were able to obtain it quite easily, and this lead to a lot of bloodshed. I'm certain that Christianity was responsible for the 'dark ages', and indeed the Catholic church was responsible for stunting scientific achievement for many hundreds of years.
    It became all too easy for those in power to say "in the name of god, we should vanquish the evil enemy <insert name here>". Look at Middle Ages Europe; Wars were a daily occurance, and most, if not all, had the full support of the churches.

    Christianity did not order the crusades to happen, men did. The religion was simply there as justification, and in my view, when people let religion be their justification for war, they are already lost.

    Face it: Christianity has been used as the justification for many horrific acts, and when someone looks at the bad that's gone on in the name of Christianity, it's quite easy to see that it's all bad. I'm sure after September 11th quite a few people felt the same about Muslims. I've heard many people who were normally sane, intelligent people break down and become racist bigoted Anti-Muslims since 09/11, and it pains me to see people blame a religion where it's obvious a small group was to blame.

    Originally Posted by PhirePhreak:
    Interesting... people aruge with me but not with Alcatraz...
    I didn't disagree with what he said until now. Even now, I don't fundamentally disagree with what he's saying, I'm just clarifying things a bit...
    Chris Shepherd
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    \"Well as far as the spelling, I speak fluently both your native languages. Do you even can try spell mine ?\" -- Failed Insult
    Is your whole family retarded, or did they just catch it from you?

  5. #55
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    PhirePhreak: Exactly why did I make a big mistake by starting this thread? This is the cosmos forum, where we can debate things such as this. I started this thread exactly so we could debate this. I never made fun of Christianity. In fact, I even said that it's good in many ways. I never tried to force my beliefs on you, either. I just wanted to debate the issue. I wanted to see if somebody could prove me wrong. Who knows? Maybe I AM wrong. Debating is one of the ways I learn best. I'll listen to you with an open mind, but I expect you to show me the same respect.

  6. #56
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    chsh

    Very true, however allowing the desire to follow a leader to override your ethics, morals, and beliefs is a very bad thing. What religion has said that it's ok to kill some people? I don't recall those teachings anywhere, but then again, I haven't experienced all of the world's religions...
    Christianity doesn't say it's OK to kill someone. The leaders did. I know that, in principle, the soldiers shouldn't have followed their orders. But we've never been in their shoes, so we can't say how hard it might be to pass up a job with decent money and risk being called a traitor and possible shot if we got caught. Besides, EVERYone is doing it...

    That's terribly amusing. You're saying that a group of 'officials' of a religion condoning a war as long as it's in the 'name of all that's good and pure' ([insert religion here]) doesn't count as a holy war and should not be held against said religion?
    Yep. That is exactly what I said. People are not holy, and thus, can't decide what is. These officials got to power and don't want to give it up so they're starting a war in the 'name of all that's good and pure.' Corrupt officials don't represent the people. And they definitely don't represent a religion. I mean, does bin Laden represent Islam?
    Why am I still here?

  7. #57
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    Originally posted here by chsh



    Christianity as a whole endorsed the crusades. If it were simply a small group of people speaking for a whole religion (as many terrorists are) then maybe I could see your point. Unfortunately in Christianity's case, a very large majority were in favour of 'retaking the birthplace of Christ' by force.







    I do agree that people who simply say "This is christianity" and point out the Crusades, the Inquisition, WW II, etc., are all very silly, because there is more to every religion than just that. Rather unfortunately christianity created an environment where those who sought political power were able to obtain it quite easily, and this lead to a lot of bloodshed. I'm certain that Christianity was responsible for the 'dark ages', and indeed the Catholic church was responsible for stunting scientific achievement for many hundreds of years.



    It became all too easy for those in power to say "in the name of god, we should vanquish the evil enemy <insert name here>". Look at Middle Ages Europe; Wars were a daily occurance, and most, if not all, had the full support of the churches.







    Christianity did not order the crusades to happen, men did. The religion was simply there as justification, and in my view, when people let religion be their justification for war, they are already lost.







    Face it: Christianity has been used as the justification for many horrific acts, and when someone looks at the bad that's gone on in the name of Christianity, it's quite easy to see that it's all bad. I'm sure after September 11th quite a few people felt the same about Muslims. I've heard many people who were normally sane, intelligent people break down and become racist bigoted Anti-Muslims since 09/11, and it pains me to see people blame a religion where it's obvious a small group was to blame.




    This is one of the fundamentals of my argument. I don't believe that Chrisitanity is bad until people take it so far as commit acts of mass murder, as has been done all too many times in the past. Even then, I don't believe that Chrisitanity in itself is bad. I just feel that people have used it as a justification for inhuman acts too many times. Am I saying that it's bad to be a Chrisitan? Certainly not. However, more wars have been fought in the name of Christianity that all other religions combined. Part of this is due to the fact that there are many ways to interpret the Bible. People would consider one value to be more important than another, such as the value of proselytation over the value of peace, which would often result in a war. That was the root of the Spanish Inquisition. The King and Queen of Spain decided that they would torture and kill all people who wouldn't accept Roman Catholic views. The Crusades were the same way. Did those people not realize that the land they were taking away from those people was the holy land for their religion as well? If they did, then that just proves my point. They believed that proselytation was more important than peace, and thus felt that they were superior to the natives of the land, and had the right to kill them just because they didn't like the fact that they were following some other religion in the Chrisitan "holy land", even though it was their holy land as well. Luckily, modern Chrisitans no longer do that. Most have a better grasp of what the Bible teaches, and accept people's right to believe in other religions.

    Has anybody ever noticed that Jews have been beat-on in just about every "holy war"? I have never heard about Jews starting any wars, or doing anything violent for that matter. They have been abused over and over again throughout history, yet they never strike back. I have never heard of any Jewish fanatical group causing terror or violence. I have never heard of Judaism being forced on other cultures, like Christians do with their mission work. They just seem to practice their beliefs, and let the rest of the world do what it wills. Judaism is the most peaceable religion I can think of. Hinduism seems to be among the most peaceable, too. You can believe in whatever religion you want, but there are lessons to be learned from how they practice their beliefs.

  8. #58
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    The Turks had penetrated far enough into
    Europe that they laid siege to the city of
    Vienna. The crusades were really for the strategic
    defense of Europe. Naturally, any major campaign
    like that would need the approval of the Pope.

    People didn't have as well developed a concept
    of church-state separation then. The Spanish
    Inquisition was probably the last major example
    of outrageous religious intolerance in the christian
    west, and I think it was because Spain had been
    (much like the balkans), a contested border between
    the islamic and christian civilizations. People were afraid,
    and fear is probably the most potent motivator for
    people to commit atrocities.
    I came in to the world with nothing. I still have most of it.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Originally posted here by Alcatraz


    OK, this argument won't help me, but I've always been of the opinion that science requires that something come from something. If nothing was there in the first place, then what caused the big bang?
    Either 'God' did, or he/she didn't and something else did, because 'God' isn't there...that's about all I can offer there, although I can offer a timeline from 10^-32 seconds (theoretically, of course) after whatever happened happened, due to the research (actually trying to find out) of cosmologists.

    [QUOTE]I have the same hopes as you as well, family, friends, future, success, happiness...all that. But I also have hope in God. I mean, what do you think will happen to you when you die?[QUOTE]

    Hopefully, I'll fertilize some grass, perhaps to be eaten by some herbivorous species, which may be killed and eaten by an expecting mother, who gives birth to another of her particular species...

    A fault of the human mind is to look 'beyond' to find 'meaning' and 'purpose' to their lives, as if to attempt to excuse themselves from just plain LIVING. Look closer, and you'll find plenty to live for, regardless of 'God' or the 'Big Bang', etc.

    One can find religion in Tolkien's writings, for instance, if one didn't know any better or were so inclined...but those writings, at least, have been written as fiction intentionally. But still there are some who adopt it as 'reality'...I don't see any difference between that and any other written religion, aside from longevity and number of followers.

    Ouroboros
    "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"

    "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity."

    -Occam's Razor


  10. #60
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    Has anybody ever noticed that Jews have been beat-on in just about every "holy war"? I have never heard about Jews starting any wars, or doing anything violent for that matter. They have been abused over and over again throughout history, yet they never strike back. I have never heard of any Jewish fanatical group causing terror or violence. I have never heard of Judaism being forced on other cultures, like Christians do with their mission work. They just seem to practice their beliefs, and let the rest of the world do what it wills. Judaism is the most peaceable religion I can think of.
    You're also forgetting that Christians have been persecuted like hell. Still, today, in many places, they're being abused, scoffed at, and sometimes killed. Particularly in Africa and some Asian places. And in Israel, (which is predominantly Jewish, right?) they have been fighting with the Palestinians. And they're also accusing the Palestinians of terrorism, which has been commited, but think...they (with western help) kicked out the Palestinians. Rejected diplomatic claims, and took more land when the Palestinians fought back. The Israelis haven't exactly been the nicest people. And saying that all Jews go on their way without fighting, or are successful (I've heard that a lot) is like saying all Christians like Holy Wars.

    A fault of the human mind is to look 'beyond' to find 'meaning' and 'purpose' to their lives, as if to attempt to excuse themselves from just plain LIVING. Look closer, and you'll find plenty to live for, regardless of 'God' or the 'Big Bang', etc.
    It's not a fault. Humans need purpose. Everything we do is done for a purpose. Sex and eating are for a purpose. And we have meanings for those. To reproduce and avoid starvation, in this case. And searching for a meaning in God is natural because we don't really have a meaning for him...

    One can find religion in Tolkien's writings, for instance, if one didn't know any better or were so inclined...
    I think Tolkien was a Christian...he hung out with C.S. Lewis a lot, didn't he? Kind of unrelated to your post, but I thought I'd point that out.


    stflook: It's about time I thank you for this thread. (I forgot to sign my name on those APs...) But really, this thread has seen some of best debates AO has to offer.
    Why am I still here?

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