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Thread: Magic Lantern/Carnivore?

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002

    Magic Lantern/Carnivore?

    I'd be interested in general opinion and ideas here regarding the implementation of the above mentioned systems to access our data

    Mind you access everything with a phone call to a judge claiming your/my IP was/is involved in "terrorist activity."

    Especially considering the redefinition of "terrorism" as of late - a visit to a "cyber warfare" or any of the best sites mentioned on the AO main page site could well be definition of terrorist activity these days.

    If you lived here you\'d be home by now.

  2. #2
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002

    More on Magic Lantern and Carnivore

    Okay - Carnivire - The "old" system already in place with many ISP's - it can easily capture and store ALL INTERNET TRAFFIC THROUGHT AN ISP'S ROUTERS. They install it on site at the ISP and it just lives there, used "as required" by officials. It's existence is well documented as seen on the following link.

    Magic Lantern - The next step in the war on "cyber terror" - all the hubub in nov and dec of 2001 but strangely silent since then. The FBI Created Trojan keylogger that will be installable on anyone's computer based upon a telephone call to a judge claiming one is a "terrorist" - ie. you visited AO and studied DOS and Hacking - The trojan will be undetected by AV Software companies. It purportedly can compromise encryption schems by capturing and logging any necessary keystrokes and phrases which make up the crypto keys.

    This from the Nov 2001 MSNBC Article that first broke the Magic Lantern story public -

    "Nov. 20 — The FBI is developing software capable of inserting a computer virus onto a suspect’s machine and obtaining encryption keys, a source familiar with the project told The software, known as “Magic Lantern,” enables agents to read data that had been scrambled, a tactic often employed by criminals to hide information and evade law enforcement. The best snooping technology that the FBI currently uses, the controversial software called Carnivore, has been useless against suspects clever enough to encrypt their files. "

    and in Dec 2001

    "So far, Symantec and Network Associates have said their software will not detect the presence of this FBI Trojan horse. It should be noted that antivirus products already exclude some files from their scans, though none are as powerful as Magic Lantern. No antivirus software vendors outside the U.S have weighed in on this matter yet. "

    Astalavista did some tests -

    This from Network Magazine (06Feb, 2002) discussing both products:

    "The larger concern here isn't the FBI's use of Magic Lantern, but its potential pirating and use by hackers, says Pete Lindstrom, director of security strategies at the Hurwitz Group ( But, ultimately, "Folks should be much more concerned about Carnivore," says Lindstrom, "because it can sniff any traffic that happens to be on a particular wire." Theoretically, Carnivore surveillance of an ISP's traffic constitutes a much broader search than would the deployment of Magic Lantern on individual users' machines. But the parameters dictating the type of information that may be obtained and used as evidence could vary according to the terms of the search warrant, the scope of a particular investigation, or the discretion of a judge. "

    This from a 01 Feb. 2002 article in PC World discussing both products and potential dangers to constitutional rights:

    " ...
    "The government wants to be able to get into people's computers--that's the surveillance agenda," says Jim Dempsey, deputy director of the Center for Democracy and Technology. "Any capability that lets them [the government] do that, they will seek." The FBI says it needs such tools to combat criminals. "In many ways law enforcement is playing catch-up," says FBI spokesperson Paul Bresson.

    "It's no secret that criminals and terrorists are exploiting technology to further crime. The FBI is not asking for any more than to continue to have the ability to conduct lawful intercepts of criminals and terrorists," Bresson argues.

    Dempsey says the program goes too far, however. More than just getting into your data, he says, it lets the FBI get "into your brain." "The program would not only capture messages you sent, it would capture messages that you wrote but never sent--things that perhaps you thought were a bad idea and [deleted]. This is the government using the Internet to get into people's houses and into their minds."

    Knock, Knock
    At issue is the fundamental right the Fourth Amendment grants citizens to prior notice when the government conducts a search and seizure.

    "In order for the government to seize your diary or read your letters, they have to knock on your door with a search warrant," Dempsey explains. "But [this tool] would allow them to seize these without notice."

    Most privacy advocates say it's not the technology that worries them, but the lack of judicial oversight in its use. Jennifer Granick, director of Stanford Law School's Center for Internet and Society, says she doesn't object to the FBI's using such tools, but she says she worries about misuse.


    Nice site to check out re: Carnivore activity and activism against it's use:
    If you lived here you\'d be home by now.

  3. #3
    Why are the common person's computers of so much intrest to the gov? Heck if they asked nice they could look at mine to their hearts content all they'll find is a couple of half finished programs (i will finish them soon...or so have been saying for months ) a couple of cracked progz -> hardly likely to cause any kind of major upset and my graphic/flash work - like woohoo so much of intrest to them there! and am sure 99% of computers are the same!!


  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Hasn't this been discussed before?

    Here is my say:
    ...This Space For Rent.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Thids has been discussed before in this thread, if your unsure what Carnivore/DSC1000/Magic Lantern is, just go to that thread.

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