$US and the Pledge of Allegiance

[draziw]

Ok, since the Pledge of Allegiance thread caught fire... well... my apologies for starting a new one - I would have posted this there, had that one not had a noose tied around its neck. Though I think this is a little different (maybe) - at least it's from a different perspective and down a different path/subject, I think.

In any case my intention is not to create another flame war, etc. This are just merely pseudo-philosophical ramblings... not asking anyone to agree or say I'm right - just wanting to know what other's opinions may be, if you so choose to contribute to this particular thread.

With that said...


So, I've been thinking or repercussions of this whole "unconstitutional pledge of allergiance" crap (not sure there's anything in most school codes, at least in California where this precedent seems to be taking place, that force school children to recite the pledge). But that aside, one of the ones I just can't get around, for whatever reason... possible future effects on our currency. On the back of every dollar, every denomination, four simple words: "In God We Trust" So, does this mean that this guy, Michael Newdow, won't let his daughter ever go earn and spend money? Does this mean he deals solely in food stamps? More to the point, spending money is now unconstitional by the very same logic here? What's the deal here?

Frankly, I think Mr. Newdow must take himself a little bit too seriously or something (and I personally hope that his fifteen minutes of fame will quickly come to and end and we can get on with our lives). Yes, I realize that words are thoughts and thoughts are ideas and that's what makes us who and what we are... but, taking it literally and "taking it one step too far" (as George Carlin has said) is nothing short of humor. "Sure, spokesman should be spokesperson..." etc, etc, etc But this is getting crazy...

And lastly, does he, Mr. Newdow, fear God (or "a god") or whatever/something *so* much that he, in fact, can't bear to say the word or allow his daughter to say it? I mean, religious beliefs aside...

Don't know... just some of the weird thoughts going through my head over this one.




And on the conspiracy theory end of the things... what great evil is now going on elsewhere in the country/world such that something like this comes up to the surface to occupy/distract the press? HeHeHe

[Palemoon]

No I do not think it caught fire and well even the Judge had second thoughts today. The Us is about personal freedom. The pledge is nothing more or less then a showing of honor to elders of this country of every raace and relegion. This country is designed to promoter self expression. This suit now could impose upon and entire nation ones mans personal right. Simple fact as a parent he could have simple wrote a note to ask his child be excused from the pledge it is his right in this country as a parent to do so. He however has no right to use a loop whole in the legal system to prevent me my children and others of honoring the founder of this country and what they have and still do fight for to maintain. I am often amazed at people that claim no faith being so afraid that they feel they have a right to strike down the right to say God, and depending upon language and culture this may be many names. You have no name do not believe then fine but do not say because I say I believe in a greater power I am imposing a damn thing upon you. Relegion has many names the spirit has one voice, the USA was founded upon the one voice of the spirit not the name or lack there of. Will stand by P2P he is right on. That is the thing American gets pissed will smack you up side the head, others getp pissed they plant a bomb send children to blow themself up. Yeah were a target and I don't mind, there is honor in standing up for what you believe America is not hiding it's people are not hiding in caves now are we?

[draziw]

You are right, Palemoon... Mr. Newdow, by his actions, has basically shown that he's a hypocrit. Since he doesn't believe in a particular deity, he's now attempting to force his own will on everyone else when he could have simply reserved his own rights with his child's rights and have been done with it (presumeably just by making an official request of the school district).

Furthermore, interpreting words literally, well... I think you said it better than I - the words therein the pledge are directed at a spirit of a nation, not completely literal (at least that's my belief).

[{P²P}Apocalypse]

Thank you both. As I said, even in my second and third posts in that thread. I PLEDGE MY ALLEGANCE.........PERIOD...................... It has nothing to do with freedom or religion. It is a matter of respect. I respect the ones that have served and died for my freedoms. If this person can't show his respect. Let him get out of this country. PERIOD. Let him go to another country where he has no freedoms. Then let him bitch and whine and be executed for this attitude. Bless AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[8*B@LL]

i have a question...how do the words "under God" show respect for the founders of the country when they werent added to the pledge till much later(about 50 years ago IIRC)?

well, anyway, here's my stance on the issue. first i see what alot of you are saying about how the word "God" is on our money, ect, and i agree. however, think about it this way: what if the country were suddenly mostly Islamic and the words were changed to "under Allah". would you still feel the same way when you had to pledge to your country by invoking the name of a diety you dont even believe in? i mean why is it even there in the first place?

for MANY years i have commented about the hypocricy of claiming seperation of church and state, yet having the word God thrown on so many things which are solely state-related. hell, alot of places dont allow school sponcered prayer in public schools, but every morning they affirm their nationality by calling on God...it just seems kinda stupid to me, but what the hell do i care. i dont need to memorize and recite a bunch of words to tell everybody else i'm americian, i can do that on my own just fine.

/me ducks and runs from the anticipated various flying objects

[draziw]

Well, it's official... or, at least, watching "news up to the minute" this morning, Mr. Newdow has declared that "there are many more places where this needs to be corrected" (though that's semi-paraphrased). He's named US currency as well as some "of the disgraceful buildings in Washington DC" as his next target. So this a**hole is ready to waste how much of the public's money for this cause...???

All I can say at this point is this is one bold man... some religious fanatics have been known to do drastic things simply to "prove a point." Abortion clinic bombings? Guess where that came from... not from the same place that the 9/11 events came from, I can say that much.

[lord_darkside_x]

this guy is an idiot. our country may be all about tolerance but he has no tolerance. under God in the pledge is a nonrepresentational term. as many analysts have pointed out, that phrase can be taken in more ways then the "almighty God." Instead however, it can be taken as under any supreme being. also, this guy has a right to believe what he wants, but he does not need to impose his rights on other people. if a child prays in school, he/she can get in trouble. that is more of an infringement of rights then anything else... besides if he doesn't like that phrase, he doesn't have to say it. simple enough to me.

[DarkGuardian]

Ok, it Mr. Newdow's defense, he has every right to take offense to the Pledge of Allegiance. There is a freedom of Religion in this country, and to force his child to speak the pledge is unconstitutional. Kind of like prayer in public schools.

However, he just should have his child refrain from saying the Pledge. If the school doesn't like it, TS. I had neighbors when I lived in CA that refused to say it because they felt it was wrong to pledge allegiance to a flag, but they wouldn't make anyone stop saying it because that would be forcing their beliefs on someone else.

It's a double-edged blade. Newdow is going to end up getting nipped in the butt for this. I admire him for taking a stand on his principles, and trying to teach his daughter something. But this was the wrong was to go about it.

And you guys are right. Take his money away. If he can't trust in God, he can't trust in currency.

The country was founded by people escaping religious percecution, not atheists. I don't necessarily believe in God, but I respect our heritage, about where we came from. This nation was built on the belief that people should be free to practice whatever religion they choose. This became the basis to all other freedoms for this country. Whether you believe in God, or not, you owe a little respect for those who gave you the freedom which you take for granted.

(Can you tell that I feel a little strongly about this? Then again, I'm sure most of you do too.)

[jcmcb]

Guys -

I see the point of this guy. He is not forcing anyone to do anything, only asking that he not be forced to have his pledge include a statement of belief that is, for him, untrue. That cheap statement (inserted in the pledge during the McCarthy Era) was a ploy by the Relgious Right to drive this country to the right, imho.

For those of us who don't believe in the majority religion, this is an important thing. Not being a Christian, I don't want my loyalty to my country confused with loyalty to a god i don't believe in. (btw I am a diest, not an atheist, so I do believe in a god) I don't want to prevent y'all from worshiping your god(s)(ess)(esses), but at the same time don't make me worship yours.

[DarkGuardian]

Originally posted here by jcmcb
Guys -
For those of us who don't believe in the majority religion, this is an important thing. Not being a Christian, I don't want my loyalty to my country confused with loyalty to a god i don't believe in. (btw I am a diest, not an atheist, so I do believe in a god) I don't want to prevent y'all from worshiping your god(s)(ess)(esses), but at the same time don't make me worship yours.

Wow, a fellow deist. I haven't seen anyone in a long time who even knows what it is, let alone believes in it. Right on!