$US and the Pledge of Allegiance

[rcgreen]

Second, school is about education. You learn about your country in your history and social studies classes. The practice of pledging your allegiance to a country every single day in a place of education does not make any sense.

'Who controls the past controls the future:
who controls the present controls the past.'
George Orwell '1984' (1949)

http://orwell.ru/home.htm

There is a vicious battle for control of "public education",
and it is winner take all. Education is not a technical
or neutral thing. All education is ideological, and those
who control the institutions of compulsory education
can fill the young with their ideology and eventually
marginalize and outlaw the ideologies of their rivals.

"Use the force, Luke"

Maybe it's time to breake up the other evil empire.

[jcmcb]

Lordarkside_X

I am all for the removal of the word god from our coinage, public buildings and I also want prayers and invocations removed from public forums. I am a firm believer that and connection between Religion (the most undemocractic institution in this country) and our governement is a destructive one. Religions (mostly, but espicially Fundie Christians) are based on a rigid hierarchy and strict laws. They are not based on the fundamental ideas of freedom and individual worth that democracy is. If you create a bond between them its only a matter of time before the religion tries to subsume the democracy. See the neverending efforts of the Religous right to teach creationism and post the 10 commandments in our country.

As for the Declaration of Independence, I am a little biased. TJ was not only a diest, but also a Unitarian, like myself. So take my opinion with that grain of salt. I think creator is a good way to show that Democracy is based on the ideas of rights that are higher than man (ie he cannot take them away) but also does not require a god in the equation (although you can choose to personally believe that).

Just my own opinion......

[d313t3d]

Imma have to, mostly, agree with jared_c, his post was well said. I think it's funny that you can go anywhere on the net and the majority of people on a debate like this, go one way or the other, black and white, clean cut no discussions, heh heh, I like to live in the grey.

Our govm'nt is what it is, founded by people who believe in christ and the allmighty lord our god. Screw the money and coins, let 'em say in 'God We Trust', it was their gold that the notes were originally printed against anyway, their gold, their note. A dollar bill with the word god on it does not infrigne on anyone's rights, that's tradition, and history. You want me to look at a dollar bill every morning and recite 'In God We Trust", Imma say hell no, though!

A few people have said that if we remove the 'under god' section of the pledge that it will be imposing someone else's views on them. Peshaw, you wanna stand there and 'think' it real quick in b/w the lines, that's all fine and good, nobodies asking you to do something you don't want to do. Thinking 'under god' wouldn't force you to be singled out at school, or make a daily affirmation about something you don't believe in. Why should someone else have to do it??

Seperate church and state?? It's never gonna happen, governing bodies use beliefs and principles to guide them, it just so happens that ours were founded on christianity, no worse or better than many others. Seperate church and school? Heck yeah, religion has no place in education, but as a subject being studied. That doesn't in anyway diminsih patriotism, My Country Tis of Thee remains the same, and the pledge may very well be shortened back to it's orginal form, getting rid of the annoying pause that the 'under god' made in it's verse.

[jcmcb]

Hey D -

Our country was not founded by Christians, but rather by humanists who believed in a more dieist view of god. B Franklin, T Jefferson, and Prob. G. Washington would not be considered "Christians" in the modern sense. Rather they believed in god as more of a clockmaker. And besides, they didn't put "In God We Trust" in the pledge or the coinage, so lets see who did....Conservative Christians in this century (at lest for the Pledge, not sure about the coinage).

[str34m3r]

I found a few quotes that I think pertain to rcgreens comments earlier. If I misunderstood you rc, then please correct me.

Who owns the youth owns the future! -- Adolf Hitler

Let me control the textbooks, and I will control the state. -- Adolf Hitler

Give me your four year olds, and in a generation I will build a socialist state. -- Vladimir Lenin

There is no such thing as other people's children. Children are the property of all of us. They belong to the state.

Both sides of the issue (the devout Christians and the devout athiests) realize that children are the most easily influenced. Thus, if a large percentage of the teachers are athiests or agnostics, the next generation is signifcantly more likely to be a godless generation. If however, more teachers are Christians, then the next generation has a much greater chance of becoming Christians as well. If you take an honest look at the school system and the teenagers that are a product of this system, I think it's obvious which side has been in control in recent years. Both sides understand the importance of educating the youth, but there is a vast difference in how each sides deals with this knowledge. Most Christian families that are concerned about what their children are taught (and who have the means) put their children in Christian schools or teach their kids at home. When was the last time you heard of an athiest or agnostic pulling a child out of a school for religious beliefs? Personally, I have only heard of one. Most athiests and agnostics, however, are not content to simply teach their kids themselves. They would rather have the entire public school system bend to meet their own desires. And if it doesn't teach EXACTLY what they want it to teach, they cry discrimination. Not only that, but quite a few of these same people are also angry at the people in the Christian schools and those that school at home. I've heard quite a few cries that tend to go something like this: "How dare they think that they're too good for our school system. Who do they think they are? Do they really think they're better than us?" In reality, though, the anger comes from the realization that they have lost the opportunity to mold the minds of the Christians' children.

As I stated before, both sides understand what is at stake here, and both sides are struggling to maintain the beliefs that they hold dear. Both sides are responsible at some level for wanting to teach their beliefs to the children from the other side. So if you go throwing around blanket accusations, you may end up catching yourself in that blanket as well. Oh, and I intentionally left off the source of the last quote. It's from Hillary Rodham Clinton. Just something to think about.

Oh, and on a somewhat unrelated note, I found some quotes that may be of interest to jcmcb:

A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know the price of the rights which God has given them, cannot be enslaved. -- Benjamin Franklin

I tremble for my country when I consider that God is just and his justice cannot sleep forever. --Thomas Jefferson

Do not let any one claim to be a true American if they ever attempt to remove religion from politics. -- George Washington

[jcmcb]

Str -

here are some quotres

"I hate god" - Ben Franklin

"I like Spam" - Thomas Jefferson

"What is this computer of which you speak?" - George Washington.

If you are going to quote someone, which you should, please provide some citation. This ain't a class paper or anything, but you can always make stuff up, as I just did...

http://www.deism.com/deism_vs.htm

This page talks about what deism is, and Thomas Paine (our most unknow founding father) a committed Deist.

"Old Chruches, Ministers and Families of Virginia, by Bishop William Meade, I, p 191. 'Even Mr. Jefferson, and George Wythe, who did not conceal their disbelief in Christianity, took their parts in the duties of vestrymen, the one at Williamsburg, the other at Albermarle; for they wished to be men of influence.' "

Just a small quote about TJ and GW.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9447.htm

Nice little explaination of old Ben...

[d313t3d]

Hey jcmcb, I agree with you to a point, k wait, no I disagree with you about almost everything. I dpn't think you could 'make' the comment that our founding fore fathers weren't christian, I'll admit that I don't know what a dieist is, though, even with the site.

You can't get more conservative than puritanical ideals. You your self said you don't know whether the 'conservative x-tians" put the 'In God We Trust' on bills and notes, well, I can say I DON"T know who put it there, but I'll bet you a month's pay it wasn't yer moden day conservox-tians.

On the pledge yer right, we did put it in there in the fifties, just like someone else had posted, to make ouselves better than the 'godless communists'. Heh, 'the godless communists', are they diesists too??? I know what a diety is, I just can't form much out of the word to constitute a religion, would Ben Tom and George have called themselves dieists??


5+|234M, "When was the last time you heard of an athiest or agnostic pulling a child out of a school for religious beliefs? "
I know quite a few who pulled there children out b/c of religious beliefs, not their beliefs, but other people's. I have a buddy who's wife homeschools their kids, he always wants to bitch about Thanksgiving and how it's portayed in History texts, the cornanicopia of pumkins and corn, white and red sitting together at a long table in the woods, heh, like the last supper, he'd say.

"They would rather have the entire public school system bend to meet their own desires. And if it doesn't teach EXACTLY what they want it to teach, they cry discrimination. "??
I totally disagree with you, non-christians in general don't bitch as a group, we know we're outnumbered, and know when we're beaten. That's why your previous statement doesn't hold up. Why struggle when you can just handle the whole damn thing yourself?? Pull the kids out, teach them right, give them an open view about anything you can.

" I've heard quite a few cries that tend to go something like this: "How dare they think that they're too good for our school system. Who do they think they are? Do they really think they're better than us?""
Your touching on a subject that has nothing to do with a person's religious views, your getting into class consciousness, the haves vs. the have nots. If your trying to group all agnostic and athiest poeple into this group, your saying that they are all the poorer people in the population. My un-xtian friends haven't been denied the right to warp the minds of the good christian children, they never wanted it. Trying to 'convert' someone, nowandays is a largley christian thing, the rest of us believe what we want, and keep it to ourselves unless asked.

[lord_darkside_x]

Religous right to teach creationism

umm... again i will add the 'no offense'.... but creationism has every right to be taught in school along with evolution. niether is better then the other since both are theories and niether has become a law. i am not saying one is right or one is wrong... but niether is wholly right at least at this point.

[DarkGuardian]

Originally posted here by d313t3d
Heh, 'the godless communists', are they diesists too??? I know what a diety is, I just can't form much out of the word to constitute a religion, would Ben Tom and George have called themselves dieists??

Deism has no relation to the word diety. Deism, in short, is the belief that God created the universe, and let it go from there. Deist tend to believe that there is a God, but that he has no active roll in the universe. When I first learned about it in European History, is was likened to a Clockmaker and a Clock, winding the clock, and letting it go. It allowed scientists to believe in God without sacrificing their principles, and not get in trouble with the government.

So for me, I believe in God, because I think that the Big Bang Theory is a bunch of crap (for now -- if I see better evidence, then ... ) but I also support the theory of evolution, and science.



Now, as for teaching creationism/evolution in schools, I know that when I was in school, people could sign a waiver before they entered the evolution section in Biology, as it was against their religion to learn it. They were then excused from class. If they wish to teach creationism, they could always go the same route -- sign a waiver of it conflicts with personal belief. Personally, I'm so uninformed about the particulars and specifics of religion, that I would rather enjoy being taught creationism. Just because I'm taught it, doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to subscribe to it. It's all about Free Will, y'all.

Keep the text on the money, keep the phrase in the Pledge ( I think I remember refraining from stating it when I said it), it isn't hurting anything (or do athiest's hands burn when they touch currency). If you don't like it, ignore it. It's not being forced upon you, it's just there. Next thing you know, this guy will be taking down phrases from National Monuments. And then churches will no longer be able to have signs out front.

Just leave it alone.

[preacherman481]

Originally posted here by lord_darkside_x


umm... again i will add the 'no offense'.... but creationism has every right to be taught in school along with evolution. niether is better then the other since both are theories and niether has become a law. i am not saying one is right or one is wrong... but niether is wholly right at least at this point.

How right you are LD. That's why it's called the "Theory of Evolution," not the "set-in-stone, unavoidably correct
reason for life on this planet." There are problems with it.