Time as what?

[PM8228]

I was bored, as usual, so I got to think about time as a dimension. Did time always exist or did we (man) create it as a form of measurement and ultimately a way to stop/prevent anarchy? I understand that something still exists even though someone does not know about it, however you can not measure any other dimension. How do you measure the first, second, or third dimension? That just doesn't make sense. I prepose that man invented time for the afformentioned reasons. The reason being that it has no effect on this plane of existance (physical). Some would argue that without time nothing would happen, but would it? Maybe there is no time and things decay, but are immeasurable so man is like, "Hey lets make a way to track this." Time has just been invented. I think that a lot of math and physics, while it worked, was forced to work by inventing other things leading ultimately to Quantum physics which can not really be proved either way, so scientists assume it is true because it makes everything work.

-Cheers-

[MoonWolf]

*hurts himself trying to comprehend time*

uuhm whe may have created the idea of time, and whe may have created the term. But
you cannot go around the fact that what I did (insert time measurement here) ago happend
in the past. I can not do that ever again in exactly the same way with every molecule in the positsion as it was then. I could repeat the action and get a setting pretty close to the first time
I did it but it will never be the exact same thing because whe have moved forward in time and nothing is as it was back then.

Yes I suck at this stuff. I have a friend in newzealand and he alway's beats me
at stuff like this.

[PM8228]

According to quantum physics there is a universe for every single possibility which means there is an infinite number of universes with every single possiblity including the one you just stated.

-Cheers-

[amnesiac]

You know what got me really confused? A few weeks ago they released some photos of the "deep universe" taken by hubble. Well, what I didn't understand about that is how they were saying these were the best pictures we have of our old galaxi. I was reading things such as "this was the deepest we ever went in our universe" or "we were able to travel millions of years back". OK, what the hell?

[el-half]

Time exists because everything evolves and people can remember things. So that there's an idea of past, present and future.

amnesiac, yes, if you look outside to a star, that star isn't actually there anymore, it has already moved to another place. So if you look at a star that is 1 lightyear away you are seeing that star as it was one year ago.
That's how they look into the past of the universe, light that has been travelling since the big-bang (supposing this theory is correct) is captured then (the photo)

[Zonewalker]

however you can not measure any other dimension. How do you measure the first, second, or third dimension? That just doesn't make sense.

PM8228 being as the first 3 dimensions are length, width and height yes you can measure them - they are the common dimensions that partly make up our physical universe. However things like the units of measurement e.g. metres, inches cubits etc are purely man made derivations so that we can say that a plank of wood is X by Y by Z inches. Similarly the measurements of time are man made derivations so that we can say an event lasts for 24 seconds or whatever. The most 'accurate' time in common use at the moment is based on atomic time which is based on counting cycles of an electrical signal resonating with an atomic transition state i.e. an electron flipping between energy shells. The definition of atomic time from here is

The second is the duration of 9,192, 631, 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.

The thing to remember is that although units of time are man made that does not mean that the phenomenon they measure is not real - like Moonwolf says

you cannot go around the fact that what I did (insert time measurement here) ago happend in the past. I can not do that ever again in exactly the same way with every molecule in the positsion as it was then

(actually as a side note that would bring about an interesting philosophical question - suppose you did go back in time in order to change a future event in your own personal history and all of the molecules were in exactly the same place - would you end up doing the same thing as you previously did? The answer is probably not since the you that went back is not the same you that existed in the original time frame)

time itself is a dimension like the other 3 (l, w, h). We have the capability to percieve 3 dimensions fairly readily but apparently we can't percieve the fourth i.e. time dimension very well. You don't need a scientist to tell you that what I am typing on i.e. a keyboard has some physical prescence (because of its physical dimensions) and that in all probability it will still exist tomorrow (drawing on past experience). Hence my memory and experience lets me know there is a before and after the present 'now' i.e. time and there is something I can touch.

PM8228, out of curiosity why do you say

was forced to work by inventing other things leading ultimately to Quantum physics which can not really be proved either way, so scientists assume it is true because it makes everything work.

as someone with a reasonably advanced scientific background I could say that certain things about quantum physics have been proved true - but I'm not going to. The reason I'm not going to is because I have seen enough inaccuracies in scientific papers and incomplete or incorrect conclusions drawn from somewhat 'dodgy' data to be slightly cynical about science. Don't take that as me saying I will believe any 'new age' or religious theory because I don't. I will say that neither religion or science (as it is currently practiced) will lead to 'truth' at best its a case of the half blind leading the blind.

Z

[PM8228]

blind leading the blind.

All I know is from watching Discovery channel and History channel ^_^. As for measuring the 3 dimensions, I guess you're right ^_^. As for the rest, I'll take your word because I have to go eat and I would have no idea anyway.

-Cheers-

[MURACU]

Time can be taken as one of the characteristics of our universe. If there was no time our universe would be static and not dynamic. In theory time can be influenced by another property of our universe, gravity. I am sure that there is an experiment where you take two atomic clocks you leave one on the ground and you take one up in a plane or space ship for a certain amount of “time”. When you bring them back together again there should be a difference in the time that has passed for the two clocks.
If anyone wants to loan me two atomic clocks and a space shuttle I will be more than happy to try out this experiment

[RoadClosed]

So for the late input - Personal take.... Time is both a measurement and a dimension from a practical point. When you measure time you are measuring its effect on our reality. The passage of time probably always had meaning on this planet. It was invented by no one; perhaps evolution is a byproduct of the ability to determine the right time to eat, or the right time to mate. The organisms that could predict time survived. Time was important long before mankind was created. In chaos theory, some touched upon; time takes new meaning as to why it exists. Mankind invented ways to communicate time.

As stated, it is a dimension in the very nature that it can be measured, but not in the sense that others often perceive, such as an alternate universe of some unknown unreachable place. I think that is the confusion about measuring dimensions, because if one existed outside of our ability to perceive it, we couldn't measure it. We don't know it exists yet or have some fundamental understanding that is “could” be there.

As for truth in science, quantum mechanics etc. are theories. Even the great minds of planet earth recognize the possibility of inaccuracies in theories, perhaps some day we will understand the LAWS of quantum existence. Even 100 year old explanations into the super small are still considered theoretical. To my knowledge there are very little Atomic Laws defined, if at all.

The Atomic Clock analogy is an excellent example of the fascination and mystery of time. It’s not constant when speaking of relativity. It is “relative” to the observer based on his position in the cosmos. In Maracu’s example time passes slow in reference to Earth but in reference to each person, time passage is the same. In reality time will go slower on the ship but ONLY at speeds relative to light. And to that person, his knowledge of a warp in time is not known, except in relation to his outside world. With no outside contact, time would be measured according to his perspective. In these respects time is related to light and the speed at which it travels.

[bballad]

amnesiac: When you look back into the heart of the universe you are looking at the way things where millinos of years ago...it takes a long time for light to get out here.

There is a start to time, and with out time there is no matter, nor movement, nor energy...loook in to hawkins work. There is also an end to time...but we may be standing at the begining or end of time right now and would never know.