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Thread: Hawking was wrong... maybe :)

  1. #11
    Senior Member Zonewalker's Avatar
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    I'm going to disagree with you here Cybrid... a worm hole is what connects the entrance (black hole) and exit(white hole) points of the singularity - the second of the two links I posted explains this.

    to quote (under the heading 'Kruskal-Szekeres spacetime diagram of the wormhole')

    The two Universes are joined by a wormhole, the region of spacetime between the white hole and black hole singularities.
    don't see why white hole is a politically incorrect term though... unless we're going to go into the whole white european/black african race thing... which would be blatantly silly in this instance

    or am I just letting this wine affect me too much?

    (Nihil if you're reading... it's a fairly light Californian blend from some place called Echo falls... a cheapy one but its actually fairly drinkable.... has a tase a bit like lemon cheescake and apple pie with a hint of rhubarb)
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  2. #12
    HeadShot Master N1nja Cybr1d's Avatar
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    don't see why white hole is a politically incorrect term though... unless we're going to go into the whole white european/black african race thing... which would be blatantly silly in this instance
    Lol no not at all ...thats just my take on it and the way I see it. My personal theory if u might . A black hole comes from the fact that not even light can escape its gravitational pull...but a white hole, which would be its opposite, would let that light that entered through the black hole, but missed the singularity escape which would make it seem like a bright object...would it not? A wormhole would be a better explanation for it...its a tunnel through timespace and leave it at that...while a black hole is more of a trap...but can sometimes have wormhole behaviour...which would be your defenition of a "white hole"

    Echo Falls, I think i've tried that once in a white/chocolate tasting event. I enjoyed it

  3. #13
    Senior Member Zonewalker's Avatar
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    oh good - would not have wanted to get into the race issue - not something I'm interested in.

    Black holes do radiate stuff though... Hawking radiation (its what I was refering to in my first post)...

    anyway the way I see it is the point of the event horizon is the black holes 'surface' (if you will)... tunnel = wormhole... and the exit event horizon is the white holes 'surface'. Its a bit difficult to describe the bounding points of a hole though.... at least in words. its debatable whether the wormhole actually misses the singularity or goes through it (although in this second case the singularity is supposed to bisect the wormhole).

    We're probably actually both describing the same thoughts you know .... language can be very inadequate sometimes.... especially where things like this are involved

    As for mixing wine and chocolate... excuse me.....

    sorry... just cannot countenance that thought... but it is a nice drop of booze though
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  4. #14
    HeadShot Master N1nja Cybr1d's Avatar
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    LOL it was an event where they had a ton of different chocolates and wines....you dont necessarily mix em together ROFL...

    But they did have these delicious slices of bread with some spread on them and salmon...and some caviar stuff ...


    Indeed zone, we might be describing the same. Yes a singularity is believed to bisect a wormhole...which is also one of the issues with traveling through a wormhole

  5. #15
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    iirc there was some stuff I read while I was in high school (I got bored, so I started into this topic back then) that although there are no white holes in this universe, there have been postulates that we live in a multiverse (many universes) which have in the past have also been referenced as "dimensions".

    This leads us to 1 of 3 different possibilities (the first two of which I particularly like).

    1) The dimensions are layered on each other like a stack of pancakes. These dimensions are perpendicularly aligned with the dimensions we know. The first dimension is the track that all the universes are stringed on which creates a wormhole from dimension to dimension. The second and third dimensions are the frameworks that hold our current universe scheme together. The forth dimension is the other track that we travel along.

    because they are aligned perpendicularly, we are able to expand forever in 360 degrees around the center point of the universe, however, it will give the appearance of going on forever, yet each universe is shaped like a spherical oval (where we live on the outside of the pancake)...

    We are linked to our universe/dimension and all the universes/dimensions are traveling like a train on the 1 and 4th dimensions (tracks). Black holes are the way to jump from one car to the next. Now, even though there is no known white holes, it is not that they don't exist, but rather, they cannot be seen because light never hits them to reflect off of to us. Also, white holes are seen once one is in the worm hole since they are ways to escape.

    2) Rather than being linked to our universe, we are linked to the 4th dimension, in this example; the 4th dimension is like a road. The universes are still stacked, however, the different choices we make force us to go from one universe to another (similar to how in back to the future, one choice could change everything) black holes and white holes are ways to go forward and backward in time.

    Now even though Einstein said time travel was not possible, he did say that theoretically time viewing was possible. combining this view with the fact that in order to view something, light must be reflected off of it AND the particle theory of light which states that light even though it travels as a wave it has qualities of a particle (hence why it is sucked into a black hole) leads us to see that theoretically time travel should be possible and how we technically would be able to change our past mistakes.

    this also creates a paradox, however, because (and we are going to presume God exists) if God created everything, and black holes are a way to go back into the past, then because of the black holes now and in the future, and the original white hole in the beginning, all the matter that was collected into the future was sent through the white hole which caused it to explode causing the big bang happened. because this happened, God never had to create anything since he already did, and the cycle just keeps going, he did however have to create a black and a white hole in the beginning... which brings us to our third possibility

    3) WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) and the first two points could just be mental masturbation and even though things can be mathematically proven, they are only possibilities and not realities

    the end
    or is it
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Zonewalker's Avatar
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    dj - you might want to read up on Kaluza-Klein theory if you're interested in pan dimensional physics... also pretty much anything written by Michio Kaku (his website is here http://www.mkaku.org/) would be of interest

    However just to comment

    1) dimensions 1-3 are what make up what we commonly refer to as the physical world, the 4th dimension is time. In reality we may also have very rudimentary senses that extend to the 5 and 6th dimensions (possibly higher but who knows). Pancake theory has evolved somewhat more than what you're talking about. You would not be able to use a black hole/wormhole/whitehole to jump intot he next dimension... gravitatioonal forces would annihilate you long before you ever reached the singularity barrier - which would also be terminal. A white hole could be seen because it is emitting radiation (either in visible or invisible EM spectra) - it would not need to reflect light radiation - indeed it could not relect light as it has no true surface to reflect anything off.

    2) the 4th dimension is time - yes we are already linked to it. you're now talking about the many worlds theory which has slightly different consequences from the pancake theory. whether you can actually change time is however a different matter - it is speculated that even if it is possible to travel in time it is only possible to change the future not the past.

    Einstein - whilst far brainer than me.... and much kudos goes to him... lost it to an extent - like many scientists he fell into the trap of thinking his theories were exclusively correct, he wasn't willing to modify his theories in the face of overwhelming evidence (IMO thats one thing which Hawking does have my respect for, he is willing to stand up and say 'I'm wrong'). Being convinced you're right and everyone else is wrong is not always a good thing. Having said that one bad thing about Hawkings latest comments is

    “There is no baby universe branching off (inside a black hole), as I once thought. The information remains firmly in our universe,” Hawking said in a speech to about 800 physicists and other scientists from 50 countries. “I’m sorry to disappoint science fiction fans, but if information is preserved, there is no possibility of using black holes to travel to other universes.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5473323/

    which is something I personally find quite depressing (and I also think its untrue but until I find a copy of Hawkings damn transcript I'm going to have to sweat this one out)

    Your logic on this score is exceptionally woolly. Where did you get the idea that a black hole has to go backwards in time for example?? In any case it doesn't necessarily create a paradox.... a 'circle' can have input coming from a different direction which you have no concept of (hint: in a 1D perspective, a sphere - a 3D object- is viewed as a circle. If you're an omnipotent being you aren't restricted to one dimension... what might appear as one thing to you - living in 1D land- may actually only be a part of a whole 3D entity.)

    3) quite possibly this is the case... in which case everything is totally pointless

    On that note i'm going to meditate before going to sleep - I have to be up in 5 hours
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  7. #17
    For the sake of any intelligent discussion about the paradox in question it would help to read what hawking actually said, instead of relying on a journalistic interpretation.

  8. #18
    HeadShot Master N1nja Cybr1d's Avatar
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    I'm relying on neither...i'm giving my own ideas.

  9. #19
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    The problem here is that he hasn't published his views in detail as yet.

    But, from all the information I've read, he is saying that the event horizon does not work in the way that is accepted at present.
    To be more precise, the information about the matter that is sucked into a black hole via the event horizon maintains most if not all, of its original structure (at a quantum level, that is!).

    Yup, you'll still be pulverised, but the basic composition of your sub atomic particles is preserved.
    And, at some point in the future the white/black hole radiates this information to the rest of the universe.
    This means there is no need for alternate universes, as all the matter in the universe is recyled at quantum/sub-atomic level.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Zonewalker's Avatar
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    !mitation - yes I couldn't agree with you more... I've been looking for that damn transcript - it hadn't been posted when I was looking. What darkes is saying is pretty much what I gleaned from press releases - that being the case, it would seem time travel or travel to other dimensions is not going to be possible. Incidentally when I metnioned the 'paradox' it was actually in direct reply to dj - personally I prefer to keep God out of this discussion.

    anyway I'm going to read this transcript
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