Id10Ts and the €conomic$ of $ecurity

[nihil]

Hey HT~ please don't get me wrong mate, I am not knocking Apple machines ..............hell I even used to have a couple (until my wife stole one). I even have one (the survivor) that dual boots! Windows 95 and something like OS 6/7? It has a 75Mhz Apple processor (Motorola or whatever) and a 120MHz Pentium.

I bought it because it was so unusual (second user of course)............. I must try to dig it out of the loft and take it apart.

My complaint is that these guys are suggesting a "solution" that is terribly expensive, and not good security in any case? There are cheaper alternatives as I have suggested.

The reason that I mention Lindows is that it is a kind of "dumbed down" Linux distro that ordinary home owners could handle. Also, you could very cheaply install it onto your existing hardware. There are others, I just haven't tried them because I only got Lindows (Linspire) as an experiment to see if ordinary users could handle it. Believe it or not, they actually can!

As I said, we are not speaking out against Apple computers (apart from the price!!!), but against those who suggest that this is an intelligent move fror someone who has already invested in a PC.

[HTRegz]

Originally posted here by nihil
Hey HT~ please don't get me wrong mate, I am not knocking Apple machines ..............hell I even used to have a couple (until my wife stole one). I even have one (the survivor) that dual boots! Windows 95 and something like OS 6/7? It has a 75Mhz Apple processor (Motorola or whatever) and a 120MHz Pentium.

I bought it because it was so unusual (second user of course)............. I must try to dig it out of the loft and take it apart.

My complaint is that these guys are suggesting a "solution" that is terribly expensive, and not good security in any case? There are cheaper alternatives as I have suggested.

The reason that I mention Lindows is that it is a kind of "dumbed down" Linux distro that ordinary home owners could handle. Also, you could very cheaply install it onto your existing hardware. There are others, I just haven't tried them because I only got Lindows (Linspire) as an experiment to see if ordinary users could handle it. Believe it or not, they actually can!

As I said, we are not speaking out against Apple computers (apart from the price!!!), but against those who suggest that this is an intelligent move fror someone who has already invested in a PC.

As I have stated time and time again... Apple computers are no more expensive... For the end user that buys a canned PC off the shelf... There's no difference between a high end PC and a Mac... You can get a great iMac for under $2000 or a MacBook as well... given the speaks.. it's better than most of the PC equivalents..

As for security... it is good security..

You have to remember what security is... I think part of the problem is that too many of the users of this site provide technical support... and they start to get idiocy confused with security... If I'm stupid enough to install malicious software or click an insecure link that doesn't make my PC less secure... that makes me an idiot... If I run my computer as Administrator or Root.. it doesn't make a difference what operating system I'm using... malicious software will have adverse affects.. these things aren't security issues as much as they are stupidity issues..

When it comes to security... OS X has less open ports than both my Linux install and my Windows install.. it has fewer existing vulnerabilities... that makes it more secure...

Drive-By Downloads only affect users with IE for the most part.. sure Firefox has it's vulns but that's a different story most of them end up being browser crashes... so in the end... for the end user... regardless of what anyone on this site wants to say about security through obscurity or user base or anything else... for the end user... The Mac is much more secure and they will have less problems....

In a way it has nothing to do with people targetting it... The stuff is out there... any idiot can go download it.... the idiots are usually found in the masses and the masses buy PCs running Windows...

All I have to say is people that think there's a huge price difference.. or that the security is OS X is as bad as XP.. or that users of Macs are at just as much risk as user of PCs... you're wrong... dead wrong... and you really have no experience with Macs then..

[nihil]

Hmmm,

As I have stated time and time again... Apple computers are no more expensive...

Well, time and time again you have been wrong.................only about 6% of humanity lives in North America, and Apple are based in Cupertino............which is where? Trust me, they are significantly more expensive in Europe.

The relative cost of IT is very variable throughout the World, much the same as gasoline?

You have to remember what security is... I think part of the problem is that too many of the users of this site provide technical support... and they start to get idiocy confused with security...

Or there are those who think that stuff they learned at college and out of books represent reality? All these marvellous standards and certifications? Ack! phtt!.............. please explain what happened that got 26.5 million veterans' records into a private home? was that stupidity?.......... it certainly had an enormous impact on security!

The two are inexorably linked, and if people cannot understand that, they might as well go home and take up crochet?

You can have all the policies, all the processes, all the procedures, and all the certifications in the World.............. then some bugger takes a laptop home (it might even have been an Apple )......

I think that you know the rest?

Incidentally, my argument has remained consistently against buying an Apple to replace a perfectly good PC/Windows system. There are far cheaper solutions.

[rcgreen]

buying an Apple to replace a perfectly good PC/Windows system.

I could make a smart ass comment here, but...

[HTRegz]

Originally posted here by nihil
Hmmm,



Well, time and time again you have been wrong.................only about 6% of humanity lives in North America, and Apple are based in Cupertino............which is where? Trust me, they are significantly more expensive in Europe.

The relative cost of IT is very variable throughout the World, much the same as gasoline?



Or there are those who think that stuff they learned at college and out of books represent reality? All these marvellous standards and certifications? Ack! phtt!.............. please explain what happened that got 26.5 million veterans' records into a private home? was that stupidity?.......... it certainly had an enormous impact on security!

The two are inexorably linked, and if people cannot understand that, they might as well go home and take up crochet?

You can have all the policies, all the processes, all the procedures, and all the certifications in the World.............. then some bugger takes a laptop home (it might even have been an Apple )......

I think that you know the rest?

Incidentally, my argument has remained consistently against buying an Apple to replace a perfectly good PC/Windows system. There are far cheaper solutions.

I love that you think my knowledge comes from college and book learning... It amazes me that you think just because people are younger than you they know less than you.. Lets see 3 years of college support desk, 6 months as Network Admin, 6 Months in IT Security... 3 years of Computer Networking in College.. 4 years of Cisco beyond that and 3 years of private sales and support and 2 years doing web design and custom programming.. oh yeah... and I'm only 24...

The relative cost does not vary that much... I can tell.. I can access Dell's UK site and Apple's UK site... so I did.. and I priced out a system from each site... the difference was 250 pounds... Ok... that may be a substantial amount so let's look at the differences..

Dell Advantages: slightly faster processor, cheaper
Dell Disadvantages: It's Dell and it's only XP Media Center

Apple Advantages: Includes a Wireless NIC, includes Bluetooth, includes a remote and includes a webcam.. Oh yeah and a real fully funtional OS
Apple Disadvantages: slightly slower, slightly more expensive..

So I went to ZyXel (a UK site) and priced out a WiFi NIC... 30 pounds (odd... same price as I pay here for a wifi card when you convert it)
We're looking at 20 pounds for the bluetooth adapter.. A phillips webcam... similar to what you get with the Sight... 50 pounds... Lastly the remote.. I looked at ebay and also a vendor.. both came in at about 25 pounds... That's 125 pounds worth of addons... Knocking the difference down to 125 Pounds... That doesn't seem to me to be some huge ghastly difference that you've been talking about..

Also any Mac user will tell you that they are much more comfortable on the included Mac mouse and keyboard than they are the 9 dollar PoS that Dell includes..

Bottom line.. .much like North America... the prices aren't that different...

so nihil... Either update your out of date price list.... or do some research... the prices don't vary by much...

[nihil]

Hmmm,

Why do you persist in misinterpreting MY original post?

This is NOT a discussion as to whether a PC is better than an Apple, or vice versa.

This is about simple home economics!

1. I have a PC that I spent $3500 on.
2. I Ditch that for an Apple that costs $4000
3. Total spend is now $7500
4. Maybe I can get $500 for the PC?
5. Total spend is now $7000

I can get my PC hardened for $500 or I can do that and get a Linux OS and applications for no more than $600.

That gives me a TCO of $4100 as against $7000

How many refrigerators, washing machines, TVs etc. could I buy for the $2,900 difference?

Try explaining you decision to your WIFE!

[tin.roof.rabbit]

From Dell.com

With Pro

Inspiron E1405 Intel® Core™ processor Duo T2500 (2MB Cache/2.00GHz/667MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Professional
LCD Panel 14.1 inch WXGA+ UltraSharp™ TFT Display with TrueLife™
Memory 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHZ, 2 DIMM
Video Card Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Hard Drive 80GB Sata Hard Drive
FREE! 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Intel® PRO 3945 and Dell 355 Bluetooth Internal Wireless Cards
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) McAfee Security Center with VirusScan, Firewall,
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Hardware Warranty 2Yr Ltd Warranty, 2Yr At-Home Service, and 2Yr HW Warranty Support
TOTAL:$1,348.75


With Media Center

Inspiron E1405 Intel® Core™ processor Duo T2500 (2MB Cache/2.00GHz/667MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
LCD Panel 14.1 inch WXGA+ UltraSharp™ TFT Display with TrueLife™
Memory 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHZ, 2 DIMM
Video Card Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Hard Drive 80GB Sata Hard Drive
CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Intel® PRO 3945 and Dell 355 Bluetooth Internal Wireless Cards
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) McAfee Security Center with VirusScan, Firewall, Spyware Removal, 24-months
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Hardware Warranty 2Yr Ltd Warranty, 2Yr At-Home Service, and 2Yr HW Warranty Support
TOTAL:$1,270.75

From Apple.com
MacBook 2.0GHz Intel Core Duo - White
Part Number: Z0D5
SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
2.0GHz Intel Core Duo
80GB Serial ATA drive
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
Accessory Kit
$1,849.00


Now before the flame war starts, I did my best to match the HARDWARE specs as close as possible between the two. I spent the most amount of time clearing the Dell website trash out of their order description. And I did this because I dont trust anyones price sheet that doesn't have hardware specs attached to it.

The mac is a 13in display while the dell is a 14.1in. Both are great machines, but I know that if I was buying a new low-mid range laptop I would go with the one that was almost 500 cheaper. Now as you get higher end, the price curve drops in Mac's favor.


Ciao

[brokencrow]

You guys need to lighten up on HT. He's been workin' since he was 8 (do the math!).

[HTRegz]

Originally posted here by tin.roof.rabbit
From Dell.com

With Pro

Inspiron E1405 Intel® Core™ processor Duo T2500 (2MB Cache/2.00GHz/667MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Professional
LCD Panel 14.1 inch WXGA+ UltraSharp™ TFT Display with TrueLife™
Memory 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHZ, 2 DIMM
Video Card Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Hard Drive 80GB Sata Hard Drive
FREE! 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Intel® PRO 3945 and Dell 355 Bluetooth Internal Wireless Cards
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) McAfee Security Center with VirusScan, Firewall,
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Hardware Warranty 2Yr Ltd Warranty, 2Yr At-Home Service, and 2Yr HW Warranty Support
TOTAL:$1,348.75


With Media Center

Inspiron E1405 Intel® Core™ processor Duo T2500 (2MB Cache/2.00GHz/667MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
LCD Panel 14.1 inch WXGA+ UltraSharp™ TFT Display with TrueLife™
Memory 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHZ, 2 DIMM
Video Card Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Hard Drive 80GB Sata Hard Drive
CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Intel® PRO 3945 and Dell 355 Bluetooth Internal Wireless Cards
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) McAfee Security Center with VirusScan, Firewall, Spyware Removal, 24-months
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Hardware Warranty 2Yr Ltd Warranty, 2Yr At-Home Service, and 2Yr HW Warranty Support
TOTAL:$1,270.75

From Apple.com
MacBook 2.0GHz Intel Core Duo - White
Part Number: Z0D5
SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
2.0GHz Intel Core Duo
80GB Serial ATA drive
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
Accessory Kit
$1,849.00


Now before the flame war starts, I did my best to match the HARDWARE specs as close as possible between the two. I spent the most amount of time clearing the Dell website trash out of their order description. And I did this because I dont trust anyones price sheet that doesn't have hardware specs attached to it.

The mac is a 13in display while the dell is a 14.1in. Both are great machines, but I know that if I was buying a new low-mid range laptop I would go with the one that was almost 500 cheaper. Now as you get higher end, the price curve drops in Mac's favor.


Ciao

That's great... I never said Laptops... but I can do the same with laptops... I have done it before and priced out the difference for the last discussion on this... I'll get you some matching laptop specs where the dell is more expensive.. or where many different PCs are more expensive..

brokencrow: nothing was ever said that they weren't done concurrently...

nihil: I still don't agree with your numbers... not in the least.

[spamdies]

Moving to a mac for security reasons or overall cost effectiveness is like moving to romania to avoid a speed trap or to pay lower taxes.
The lure of a mac is really their with applecare that every mac user bosts about... well their supposed to anyway, only the zelots boost about it. I had to deal with them on a few occasions, I would rather put a bullet in my head then have to call apple care again.
They claim they have more secure more stable stations. Well you get what you pay for.
Theirs some alienware stations out there that make the packages offered by apple look like childs play, and in the same price range.
Security through obscurity is insecurity at the peek.