Id10Ts and the €conomic$ of $ecurity

[tin.roof.rabbit]

From Apple.com

iMac, 20-inch, 2GHz Intel Core Duo
Part Number: Z0CY
SuperDrive 8x (DVD+R DL/DVD+RW/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon X1600/128MB VRAM
Accessory kit
250GB Serial ATA drive
Keyboard & Mighty Mouse + Mac OS X - U.S. English
1GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x512
$1,799.00

From Dell

XPS 400 Pentium® D Processor 820 with Dual Core Technology (2.80GHz, 800FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005 with re-installation CD
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
LOGITECH MX 3000 Laser Mouse/Keyboard Combo
20 inch UltraSharp™ 2007FPW Widescreen Digital Flat Panel
128MB PCI Express™ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI Radeon X300 SE HyperMemory
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/ 8MB cache
Dual Drives: 16x DVD-ROM Drive + 16x DVD+/-RW w/dbl layer write capability
Sound Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell A525 30 Watt 2.1 Stereo Speakers with Subwoofer
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) McAfee SecurityCenter with VirusScan, Firewall, Spyware Removal, 15-months
Hardware Warranty 1Yr Ltd Warranty, 1Yr At-Home Service, and 1Yr HW Warranty Support
TOTAL:$1,240.00


This isn't a fair pricing since I couldn't level the chip sets off. Apple doesn't offer a 2.8 on the I-Mac and Dell doesn't go below the 2.8 on this model.
I also added the remote for Media Center and kicked in the Logitech MX 3000 Lasermouse and keyboard combo (not bad at 60bucks).

If I was shoping for a PC for my parents these are the specs I would put out there.

I dont want to seem like I am hammering on HT, and if he posts specs that counter what I would consider a basic US family would need. I will happily consent that he is correct. On a side note, the Mac mini is the better deal compaired to the entry level dells because of the OS alone. For what ever reason Dell does not offer Media center or Pro on their entry level desktops. For that reason I did not spec out the entry level desktops.

[nihil]

This is not the issue!

Go out and dump your PC, buy some overpriced nonsense to replace it, and then you will have security through obscurity........................ whoopeeeee!

I cannot believe that I can see this sort of stuff supported on a security website.............. particularly by the finest security consultant in the Western Hemisphere................ at the ripe old age of 24?

Ack! phtt!

[HTRegz]

Originally posted here by nihil
This is not the issue!

Go out and dump your PC, buy some overpriced nonsense to replace it, and then you will have security through obscurity........................ whoopeeeee!

I cannot believe that I can see this sort of stuff supported on a security website.............. particularly by the finest security consultant in the Western Hemisphere................ at the ripe old age of 24?

Ack! phtt!

It's not overpriced nonsense.. problem 1 I have with what you're saying..

Secondly it's not only security through obscurity.. Macs are more secure... plain and simple... For the end user... a Mac is more secure in it's default configuration... They are designed and configured this way meaning it's more than just security through obscurity... Look at the MS Exploits this year..they are do to the way MS implements certain things... Macs don't implement stuff the same way... It's the difference between secure coding and proper code auditing and not... I'm sorry if this is above your head.... things have progressed a little since the 70s... Maybe that's why it's difficult for you to grasp... you've been out of touch for too long.

[nihil]

OK, I will follow your logic to its conclusion.

Apple computers are more secure...........and please do not call them "Macs" unless you are taking a substantial kickback from Steve (tosspot) Jobs

MacIntosh is the operating system, as in OS X?........you need an Apple computer to run it on?......remember that we are talking average home user here?

So I scrap my PC, and get one of these marvellous devices, and the whole World is suddenly sorted out?

I don't think so

[dalek]

Okay I've been trying to follow the logic behind this conversation, and aside from the fact that each system has a different set of pricing...just what is the differences....according to this, Mac vs Win they both score evenly...?


So bottom line would still be down to the individual buying the PC and what their level of skill is? and what they are most comfortable with?

[HTRegz]

Originally posted here by nihil
OK, I will follow your logic to its conclusion.

Apple computers are more secure...........and please do not call them "Macs" unless you are taking a substantial kickback from Steve (tosspot) Jobs

MacIntosh is the operating system, as in OS X?........you need an Apple computer to run it on?......remember that we are talking average home user here?

So I scrap my PC, and get one of these marvellous devices, and the whole World is suddenly sorted out?

I don't think so

Apple is a company... they haven't made an "apple computer" in many years (again possibly stuck in the past?)... They make Macs... The MacBook, The iMac, The eMac... No one in IT is going to talk babout that... Macintosh is not an operating system... That would be like saying Disk is an operating system. Mac OS X is just that the Mac Operating System... Just as it was Mac OS 9, Mac OS8... It's the OS that drives the MacIntosh..btw the name originally comes from the MacIntosh computer.. again not an operating system... but a computer...

The world isn't suddenly sorted out... but the world is much better... How do worms spread in the Windows world? RPC-based Exploits, SMB Based Exploits, Default File Shares w/ Weak Passwords... How do the few worm spread in the *nix world... SSH.... How would they do this on OS X... none of the Windows based networking exploits exist... SSH is turned off by default.. The advantage of buying a machine running OS X... plain and simple.. You get a pre-hardened box..

While I don't agree with the link dalek posted... I'll get into that in a second.. If we were to look at just the "security scores" it uses... we'd see: 48 for OS X and 31 for XP...

Now as for that link..

Dalek... it's great that you posted it... but there are problems with it... many problems.. but let's address your second statement first..

So bottom line would still be down to the individual buying the PC and what their level of skill is? and what they are most comfortable with?

We're talking about users that buy their home PC and that's it... no comfort level for security of any sort.. .maybe a point and click comfort level but that's it.. they aren't going to do anything to it.. and given that scenerio.. an OS that ships pre-hardened vs what's considered the most insecure shipping OS... you're never going to convince me that the insecure OS ix better for the end user.... never.

Now for the problems with that site.

I'll let the first too pass... there are minor issues with the scores but only minor.. first problem is with

Legacy Application Support 3 9

Several Additional Pieces of software have come out such as DOSBox to allow user to use truly legacy applications because XP doesn't have native support... My old roommate has several things that won't run in XP they are 98 only... even with legacy support enabled... Yet on OS X you have all of OS 9 installed at the same time.. the classic environment starts and you can do anything that you normally did in classic... so these scores are obviously off

Video Playback 4 9
DVD Playback 9 3
Video Editing 1 7 (8)

Video Playback??? Come on... OS X Natively has Quicktime, XP natively has Media Player... both are available for download by the opposite OS.... both can have DivX, XVid, RM, etc... those are equial.. DVD Playback.. XP Doesn't natively support DVD playback without additonal software/hardware so I"m not sure what that's there.. and Video Editting... I'm not sure how this one works... Macs are known for video editing... natively on my Mac I've got plenty of cool software.. on my PC I've got Windows Movie Maker... perhaps they reversed the scores..

Photo Management 4 6

iPhoto vs... nothing by default.. .everyone get's Adobe's software on PC.. so yeah I'd say Mac wins again there..

I question all their IM and Browsing stuff... but we'll just skip that..

Browsing Files & Folders 5 9

There's no difference in this either way.. in fact... many Mac users would say they have it easier because of spotlight

Managing Deleted Files 7 8

Both systems send files to Trash... and both file sytems can have files recovered so I'm not sure about this either..

Appearance & Themes, Basic 4 9
Appearance & Themes, Advanced 5 9

Everywher you look Mac Haters even score Macs higher on this.. so again.. questionable scoring..

Help & Support 7 8

Not only do you have a browseable GUI help like Windows.. you also have man pages

Updating the Operating System 6 8

My Mac pops up and says these updates are available.. just like Windows... and it doesn't have to verify that I'm genuine or require a specific browser.. No browser required actually

Power Management 7 8

Another one that is equal

Sending and Receiving Faxes 5 7

Am I missing something with this one??? I have free fax software on my Mac... but not on my PC

Backing Up and Restoring Files 4 9
Synchronizing Files and Data 4 7 (9) / 1 (7)

Synchronize with what.. and backup to what??? I definately disagree with this

Disk and Temporary Files Cleanup 4 8
Defragmenting Disks 5 7
Checking and Repairing Disks 8 9
Restoring and Recovering System Files 6 9

Macs have this awesome function after you install quite a few of the apps where they perform automatic hard disk optimization... besides that... any user will tell you that the unix fs management utilities (which are available on Mac) blow away the Windows ones..

OS X scored 5% higher with their biased scoring system... and plenty of it could and should be corrected... the site doesn't provide an accurate breakdown of anything...

[nihil]

Hmmmm,

So, 99.9999999% of humanity is wrong, and HTRegz is right?

Better trash your PCs folks, and go and buy yourself an Apple computer?............Hey, Hey, HT~ has one, so you know it makes sense?

I just wonder how Billygoat Gates got to be the richest man on the planet?........... he is an obvious fraud and cheat, and nothing less than a public execution and a re-distribution of his wealth to steve jobs will suffice.

I now know why I have a "certain attitude" towards these "Macolytes"

I have done, and can repair Apple computers..............I just choose not to, as a matter of principle

Apple have an antedeluvian business model...............so let them get on with it?

Ack! phtt!

[HTRegz]

Originally posted here by nihil
Hmmmm,

So, 99.9999999% of humanity is wrong, and HTRegz is right?

Better trash your PCs folks, and go and buy yourself an Apple computer?............Hey, Hey, HT~ has one, so you know it makes sense?

I just wonder how Billygoat Gates got to be the richest man on the planet?........... he is an obvious fraud and cheat, and nothing less than a public execution and a re-distribution of his wealth to steve jobs will suffice.

I now know why I have a "certain attitude" towards these "Macolytes"

I have done, and can repair Apple computers..............I just choose not to, as a matter of principle

Apple have an antedeluvian business model...............so let them get on with it?

Ack! phtt!

I think it's time you grew up and acted your age... these grade school fits of anger that you throw are getting old... I make plenty of valid points... your response... a sarcastic comment... I must say I love your number.. "99.9999999%" so that's how many people run Windows XP?? Because I highly doubt that... People in IT have long accepted that the end user is stupid... ask any support person... So yes... the odds are they are wrong... That's why you hear so many tech support horror stories about the cd-rom as a cup holder, trying to use cable internet when the cable is out and holding paper up to the screen thinking it'll scan.. these aren't jokes (well they are...) but they really happen... so yes... the end-user is wrong.. As for Bill Gates.. he is a fraud and a cheat.. but he's also a smart business man.. he sold an OS he didn't have and then bought DOS... He stole the inner workings for Win 3.1.. As for your opinion towards "Macolytes" I have to question that.. as I've said numerous times.. I use Windows and Linux much more than I use Macs... I own a Mac.. yes.. I use it as my "primary" computer every now and then.. but I'm hardly a "Macolyte".. Mac users stand behind their product because they know it's quality... It's not like Windows users who bash the product they use because they know it's ****.

Should I give you a cookie because you can repair computers? Face it.. when it comes to IT you're washed up... when it comes to maturity you're a little kid... Do everyone a favour and retire.. give up IT... we'll all be better as soon as you stop practicing.. As I said... You couldn't even respond to valid points...

I tell you why they are Macs and explain the OS and you ignore it...I know.. you just can't stand to be wrong... What's why you have so many posts.. half the time you simply reiterate in other wording what someone has already done... trying to make yourself feel smart perhaps??

I also post the question why would someone, who isn't going to touch their computer after they set it up, be better with a operating system that's insecure by default rather than hardened OS... yet something else you couldn't answer...

At least I know what I'm talking about... the PMs that I get regarding you... the instant messages and yes... even the emails... People wonder why you're here... You have a limited level of knowledge and you pretend to be all knowing... All you've ever proven on this site is that you're some old guy with too much time on his hands who plays with the occasional computer and thinks that his age mandates that he knows **** about computers... but anyone in IT will tell you that age has absoluately nothing to do with it... You know how to use google... that's another thing you've proven... but that's about it..

You know.. time and time again you've taken shots at me.. picked fights with me.. asked to have me removed from this site... so go ahead... start up on it again... You want to insult me.. well this time I'm not going to sit around and be the peaceful one as usual.. I'm taking shots back.

HT

[Aspman]

Lol this site is funny sometimes.

On topic: Handbags at dawn attitude aside, no matter who tells me that the Apple/Mac (take yer pick I ain't fussy) is more secure ( and I don't deny that the mac is more secure out of the box) I ain't buying one.
Why?
I've got a perfectly servicable windows box under the desk.
It is secured to give me a level of risk I can acept.
I'll buy a cross cut shredder though.
Total additional outlay = £15

If I were looking to buy a new machine I would still not buy an Apple/Mac.
Why?
I'm not a power user, I play few games. A budget machine will suit me. An Apple/Mac is not a budget choice for me. The insecurities of the Windows PC is something I'm confident I can mitigate to my own level of comfort.

[brokencrow]

...I'm startin' to think high-tech brings out the worst in people.