Iraq, G. dub, and the long arm of the Army Reserve

[nihil]

Hmmm, if the icecaps melt they will cool the oceans resulting in less CO2. Remember, carbon dioxide is more soluble in cold water.

[Evil Moo]

Well said! I thank you.

[RoadClosed]

Remember, carbon dioxide is more soluble in cold water.

Definitely. Any brewer knows this.

I force carbonate at near freezing.

Wait...that seems like the right conclusion but by incorrect science.

That's why not everyone is part of the Gore Parade. It does make sense however that large relective ice sheets would allow less engery to the planet surface where energy is stored perhaps more efficiently in a rock than water vapor.

[dalek]

Hmmm, if the icecaps melt they will cool the oceans resulting in less CO2. Remember, carbon dioxide is more soluble in cold water.

Well the Danes and anybody else who lives below sea level now will be happy about that fact, hmmm what's the housing market like right now in say...Norway... I'm allright Jack, I live on a hill....

[nihil]

Actually dalek, that is another interesting one, you see if you warm water it expands and if you cool water it contracts (until it becomes ice, when it expands again, in this case as icecaps)............so, global warming causes the oceans to rise due to expansion, whereas oceanic cooling would cause them to fall due to contraction, but there would be more water until the icecaps reformed?

Folks, I studied climatology and meteorology at high school and university and then some afterwards. I lay no claim to be at the cutting edge these days, but I do understand the problems.............

What we have here is the mother and father of a multivariate predictive analytical model, and we don't know enough about all the variables or their "sensitivity analysis values" (math modellers will know what I mean by that) to have any real hope of getting this anywhere near right.

Hell folks, we have hardly any empirical data to feed into the model.........we have collected sporadic data from maybe 1850, and probably more comprehensive data from no earlier than 1948? Satellite met was in its infancy when I was studying in 1970

The problem we are looking at is on a quaternary or paleontological timescale. Like we have less than one second's worth of data in the average human lifetime?

[fourdc]

Not too make light of the complexities of weather forecasting, but the US's NOAA can't get the weather correct for 2 days from now 75% of the time (my figure). Why should I trust shallow empirical data and a forecast for the next 100- 500 years?

I live about 500 feet above the Connecticut River, which would have to raise considerably to get to me personally, granted the residual effects of others would affect me. After this years winter, global warming might seem welcome. I burned a lot of fossil fuel keeping my house warm.

[dalek]

What we have here is the mother and father of a multivariate predictive analytical model, and we don't know enough about all the variables or their "sensitivity analysis values" (math modellers will know what I mean by that) to have any real hope of getting this anywhere near right.

The thing with this, is over a period of say 70 yrs, it was easier to map out a particular weather pattern, you could swear by the Almanac, but today the systems are more random then ever so the game rules have changed and we are unable to map it out like we used to, too many variables have come into play, too many peripheral cuasalities are affecting the scales to get a true reading on what to forcast.

Case in point is Katrina, what started out as Cat 1 Hurricane coming through Florida quickly became a Cat 4 over the Gulf and then swept into New Orleans, the reason is the temp's of the Gulf were warmer then before and this wasn't really the normal trajectory of Hurricanes, but when combined it created the mother of all hurricanes for that season...

Our winter's have been milder over the last 20yrs, but then we had a snowstorm last night and here it is Apr 8 2007, all along the Eastern Seaboard the temps were low, so it is up for grabs, there is no "normalcy" any more, years ago you could rely on the lakes freezing just in time to go skating and you knew there would be a period of time that the lake would stay frozen...no longer can you rely on "dates"......

[rcgreen]

It is not surprising that a thread about Geo W. Bush evolves into a discussion of
global warming. It only indicates that global warming is totally about politics and
has absolutely nothing about science. If you were to approach the question scientifically
you would have an experiment. Take two identical planets like the Earth. On one, you
allow the development of energy resources in much the same way we have done so far.
On the other, you employ the restrictions desired by the global warming alarmists.

Observe them for five or six thousand years and track the temperatures. It's easy
to see that the radical green movement has no patience to wait for good data to
come in. They will tell you straight up that all problems on this planet have one
originating cause 'There are too many humans on this planet' They want
to be put into power by an emergency decree. Then, with absolute power, they
can make the "hard choices" that the rest of us have no stomach for, to decree
genocide in order to save the planet. Welcome to the "post sanity" era, and have a
nice century, if you are one of the chosen few.

[MURACU]

Unfortunatly Rc we dont have two spare planets to try that on. Also they have been tracking the temperatures over the past couple of thousand years using ice cores and rock cores. As far as we can tell there has never been such a change in the global weather patterens in such a short time. There is more than enought scientific evidance to prove we are haveing a serious effect on the enviroment and not just throught emmisions. Europe and the Us are having huge problems of erosion due to over farming. The sahara desert in north africa is the best example of over grazing at the moment. Of course if you are right we have nothing to fear and if you are wrong there wont be any need to admit it .

[RoadClosed]

Europe and the Us are having huge problems of erosion due to over farming.

I was talking to a historian in the pub over in Bristol last fall. He told me that before the UK started building the huge Navy, in essence deforesting most of England and Wales, the rivers used to run clean. That was like 400 years ago. The bastards!